Scrub player syndrome

[Dendrobatida]

Dang! People giving Jason a hard time because he played GG? That's just as atrocious as seeing a couple of posts giving Jason a hard time and then lumping all people who don't play archetypes into a scrub category! Won't somebody think of the children?!?


/"The whole of the gym"?

 

[Moss Factor]

Dude that's ignorant.

 

[ChicoBlanco]

I do like playing rogues, but I am definitely not a Scrub.

Jason won the tournament, and whether or not he used a rogue or archetype doesn't matter. he choose what he knew as the best deck choice, and Won with it.

personally, i dont have phenominal mirror skill, and I knew i'd get nowhere in a field of PLOX vs PLOX.
i chose to run toxicroak in the tournament because I thought it was my best chance...
if i thought the deck was too weak, or couldn't compete well, i wouldnt've used it..

as stale as this format was, I wasn't complaining about Gardevoir being 2 strong..
sure, the deck was getting pretty old, but that gave me all the more reason to try and take it down.
for me thats half the fun in the game..


but to go back on topic:

it takes a large amount of skill 2 be a world champ.
it doesn't matter if you use a rogue or archetype.
a smart player will use whatever he thinks has the best chance at winning.
if that choice is an archetype, go for it!
there should be no shame in that

-ian

 

[bulbasnore]

you're not like me so you are evil

That's just as atrocious as seeing a couple of posts giving Jason a hard time and then lumping all people who don't play archetypes into a scrub category!

Dude that's ignorant.

Well said -- it would be ignorant to label people who don't play archetypes, or the whole Gym, with a scrub label!

Seriously, while the season-long criticism of the GG players is a problem, we don't need the opposite problem either. Choose your deck and enjoy it and let others enjoy theirs.

 

[slayer_chaos]

it takes a large amount of skill 2 be a world champ.
it doesn't matter if you use a rogue or archetype.
a smart player will use whatever he thinks has the best chance at winning.
if that choice is an archetype, go for it!
there should be no shame in that

There we go. Every good point that can be made on the subject laid out nicely.

 

[Phazon Elite]

Well said -- it would be ignorant to label people who don't play archetypes, or the whole Gym, with a scrub label!

It's not that everyone who doesn't use an archetype are scrubs, it's that everyone who does not use an archetype but tries to discredit the accomplishments of those who DO use archetypes are scrubs.

And granted, it might be unfair to label the entire Gym as a massive conglomerate of scrubs, but one can certainly understand the basis of such a conclusion. That's just what happens when a site DRASTICALLY caters to inexperienced and/or younger players in a society where undeserved emphasis is placed on protecting our precious snowflakes from ANY and ALL un-niceness. Everybody thinks they're right, and as a result, everything defies the common, intelligent logic many of us were lucky enough to be exposed to as children. Nobody knows which way is which, because everybody has been told that they're always right and that nobody can take that away form them. Deserved respect is fantastic; undeserved respect is shameful and should be looked down upon. People mistake the latter fo

I'm rambling on about partially unrelated subject matter here, but my underlying point is that a forum so closely related to PUI as the Gym is more or less forced to cater to the less experienced player, thereby affecting the quality of the forum's traffic: fewer skilled (and usually older) players, more scrubs (of course, depending on your definition of skill, there are fewer skilled players out in the world than inexperienced players, so the statement about the forum traffic will almost always be true, but the forum's target demographic helps further tip the scales in the scrubs' favor).

(Since it bears saying, the above was entirely meant to provide an interesting discussion point, and was not meant to bash the Gym in any way. If it wasn't for the Gym, I'd probably still be a Mr. Scrubby McScrubberton myself.)

 

[EeveeLover]

It's not that everyone who doesn't use an archetype are scrubs, it's that everyone who does not use an archetype but tries to discredit the accomplishments of those who DO use archetypes are scrubs.

And granted, it might be unfair to label the entire Gym as a massive conglomerate of scrubs, but one can certainly understand the basis of such a conclusion. That's just what happens when a site DRASTICALLY caters to inexperienced and/or younger players in a society where undeserved emphasis is placed on protecting our precious snowflakes from ANY and ALL un-niceness. Everybody thinks they're right, and as a result, everything defies the common, intelligent logic many of us were lucky enough to be exposed to as children. Nobody knows which way is which, because everybody has been told that they're always right and that nobody can take that away form them. Deserved respect is fantastic; undeserved respect is shameful and should be looked down upon. People mistake the latter fo

I'm rambling on about partially unrelated subject matter here, but my underlying point is that a forum so closely related to PUI as the Gym is more or less forced to cater to the less experienced player, thereby affecting the quality of the forum's traffic: fewer skilled (and usually older) players, more scrubs (of course, depending on your definition of skill, there are fewer skilled players out in the world than inexperienced players, so the statement about the forum traffic will almost always be true, but the forum's target demographic helps further tip the scales in the scrubs' favor).

(Since it bears saying, the above was entirely meant to provide an interesting discussion point, and was not meant to bash the Gym in any way. If it wasn't for the Gym, I'd probably still be a Mr. Scrubby McScrubberton myself.)

So, from what I am reading here, you feel that the 'Gym, although not owned or operated by PUI is providing a dis-service to all the Elite players by providing a safe place for all players to share their opinions and ideas - you included? That makes no sense to me. If all the elite players are to good to be here and this place is running a muck with lower skill level players, then why did the elites post this topic in the first place, wait I already know that - to remind us how good they are and how bad we all are.

Remember this point:

This site is owned and operated by Team Compendium.
The PokéGym is not affiliated with Pokémon USA, Inc.
or any anime or video game companies.

PUI does not dictate what is posted here or by whom, the Staff of the 'Gym does, and in part, the members do. If you feel that the posts and topics on this site are sub par and aimed at the scrubs, do something about it. Make better topics to post into, instead of complaining about it. Help the scrubs become non scrubs. If the elites were really as elite as they like to make us think, they would be out helping make better players, instead of rubbing their greatness in our faces.

Personally, I think they are very skilled players, that would add alot to the game, if they only had the desire to help others. Maybe they are afraid the scrubs might get better than them in the end.

 

[Venjamin]

I'm on the fence - a dangerous place to be when so many textual bombshells are being lobbed over it. Rogues hate GG for being GG, and everyone else hates rogue players for hating GG. It's a weird place to be - I love playing rogues, but I don't really hate people for playing GG, or look down on them for playing the BDIF. It's not a lack of skill that has people playing GG or whatever BDIF is currently the best, but rather a true mastery that most people can't accomplish.

Everyone says that anyone can pick up GG and win. For the most part, this is true. Now, do you think the random GG player is going to be able to take me and the deck I've built and ran with for ages? No! Because he has no experience with the deck, or the outcomes of certain actions. It takes more than just a deck to win worlds - and anyone that would say Jason [ who won worlds with NOT GG before ] won because of his deck... well... is a scrub. I may not be supreme lord mcwinsauce, but I think I have enough knowledge to smite one or two people all well and good.

Putting it this way - in a swordfight, I'd much rather have the machine gun. The sword may look prettier, or be more honorable, but at the end of the day, I'm going home unharmed.

 

[NoPoke]

I much prefer the Timmy Johnny Spike categories to the scrub/leet split.

The whole scrub article could be summarised as "Play to Win". No problem with that. But then it gets lost in trying to define the one true definition of a win. For me it fails because it does not recognise that there is more than just one victory at stake for individual players. The goal of 'Play to Win' has many paths, and not all of them even point in the same direction.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

What I take out of the article isn’t so much just “play to win” but rather “don’t limit yourself into loosing.” It’s not that rogue is bad. Rogue can be very very good. It’s just that if you limit yourself to non-meta decks then you are putting an artificial limit on your own chances to win. Meta decks aren’t bad. Rogue isn’t bad. They are all just options ... tools that we can choose to use or not as we deem appropriate.

The Johnny/Timmy/Spike thing is neat too and speaks well to some folks motivations for limiting their choices … but the ultimate thing is that some players are limiting the choices in the game artificially and others aren’t. It’s neat to know why and I have no problem with anyone enjoying the game their own way. The only issues seem to arise when folks try to force their way of “fun” on others.

 

[Ghetto Overlord]

If you feel that the posts and topics on this site are sub par and aimed at the scrubs, do something about it. Make better topics to post into, instead of complaining about it. Help the scrubs become non scrubs. If the elites were really as elite as they like to make us think, they would be out helping make better players, instead of rubbing their greatness in our faces.

Personally, I think they are very skilled players, that would add alot to the game, if they only had the desire to help others. Maybe they are afraid the scrubs might get better than them in the end.

we try but they dont listen and keep complaning if more listened than there would be less scrubs those that do listen get better

 

[P_A]

Can I give you a bit of advice? You may not feel the need to follow it, but it is good advice regardless. Most good winners are humble. If you can be a good winner, and accept that not everyone will listen, you'll find a lot more people will listen. Considering yourself superior to others will never endear you in their eyes. However a humble attitude will go a long way.

Personally I was never a hater of GG, or plox, especially since I have a deck of my own that features it. I have no problem with Magmortar - same deal. Nor Blissey, Banette, or any other deck. I try to keep up with the metagame if I can, mind you I don't play in events so that part doesn't matter. However I do try to help my league members, and will decktest with them when possible, or occasionally have enough time for a game in league. Winning for me is making sure everyone has a good time. If that means I ocasionally have to lose a game, I'm willing to do so - even when I originally started out to whip some butt. I can see the realities of why many people have gravitated to GG/Plox, and I won't deny it's powerful reasoning, but I think I'll be even more happy once it has been moved out of modified. I'm not a hater, but I don't particularly like it either. Congrats Jason on your win. You're an outstanding player no matter what you play.

 

[dogma]

Some people are saying things (with good intentions) that just don't make any sense:

The concept that an inferior deck beating a superior deck is an accomplishment is complete fluff. Pretty sure winning Worlds with an Electivire themedeck is a pretty big accomplishment, but no one's doing that. Why not? If the idea is to achieve the most fulfilling victory why not limit yourself completely? You're being selective on a concept you hold so dear, and that's pretty hypocritical. It's like saying one man is more guilty of murder because he's killed more people than the other. Perhaps, but the person who hasn't killed at all is the ideal. So, if your only defense is, "I wanna be flashy when I win worlds, and as such, I make the conscience choice to play decks I view as inferior", why stop there? Why not win with a theme deck?

Sounds to me like you're playing a bad deck so you'll have an excuse when you go 0-x at a tournament besides lack of play skill.

First, something which is a good argument. Actually, taking it to the logical extreme, why not try to win with a deck with 1 Pokémon and 59 Energy (is that still a legal deck?)

Right you are NoPoke... the historical examples in the article lack credible historical perspective.

Condemning a win/player for deck choice is mere prejudice.

Play your own style and have fun. Don't look down on others that don't conform to your style.

Condemnation of the winning deck is a lot of things, but prejudice? Against what exactly?

The second point about not looking down on others seems like it's obviously a good thing. But an argument can be made that if people had decided that GG/Plox was bad for the environment, and there was a gentlemanly (sorry ladies!) agreement to not play GG, and then he played it, I can see why he would be looked down upon.

Yes that is a contrived situation, but one that is technically possible. My point is that people should be careful about what they say, because often times seemingly obvious things are the complete opposite.

:lol::lol:



I was one of those scrubs as well at one point. But then I got tired of losing...

I don't know whether this was meant in sarcasm or not. Now for a lot of people, winning is a big part of their fun. So if winning is their main objective (presumably this is true for the vast majority in a tournament), then they will have to play GG or severely cut their chances for achieving said objective.

The rational thing to do is to play GG. This is not the fault of the player. It is a fault in the format. The blame rests solely on whoever decided the POP format without playtesting.

Yeah just in case everyone read over what a few of the best players on earth posted, GG is a significant underdog to Empoleon/Bronzong. Jason even knew this, but played the deck he was most comfortable with.

I presume you mean that if the GG v. Empoleon/Bronzong matchup was played repeatedly, E/B will win more often than not. There are many reasons why Jason would not play E/B, one which you mentioned. But if it really was so much better than GG, and a load of (good) players were using it, then either

- what you're saying is wrong, because presumably Jason's GG deck would've beat E/B many times (giving statistical evidence to 'reject your hypothesis'), or

- Jason decided not to be play the generic deck just to win.

I'm guessing the second one is more true than the first. Giving further proof of how ridiculous some of the arguments are here. Think people!!

Let's not get off into personal disputes and rudeness.

Many elite players may not realize it, but a game needs a healthy number of scrubs.
How else would you fill out the bell curve?

The game needs a healthy number of people, not necessarily scrubs. Why on earth would you need a bell curve at all? Why on earth does it necessarily follow that a given set of people will need to follow a bell curve?


Anyway, I'm just nitpicking. But for those people who are denouncing the achievement because of his choice of deck are being ridiculous. It's like saying speak English, only don't use the letter 'e'. It makes no sense. The only thing such points show is total stupidity.

 

[billbilski]

It's the World Championships People!!! Play whatever deck gives you the best chance to win PERIOD!!! For Jason that is a consistent deck that enables him to outplay the competition. His real strength is in his gametime decision making not his ability to build rogue decks or metagame. Recognizing your strengths and playing to them is just plain smart and one of the unique qualities of champions.....Those of us who get to compete against him on a regular basis understand that he is better than most no matter what deck he happens to have mastered and chooses to play....

As far as the scrub thing goes.... I've won some tournaments playing very odd decks, but as long as I thought they had a reasonable chance to win I don't think I was "setting my self up for the loss." Scrubs are simply those who go into a tournament without the skill and or research needed to win in a particular metagame. Playing a deck that virtually has no chance is one thing -- making an intelligent decision to go against the grain and have fun at the same time doesn't quite qualify in my opinion.

 

[orangematt]

I saw his deck at Nats on Wednesday with Jolteon* and Absol EX and thoughts "WHAAAAAA?" Clearly Jason knows how to tech for the game and has the skill to win at the highest levels. Total congrats.

 

[The Gorn]

Not playing archetypes doesn't make you a scrub.

Not playing archetypes FOR THE SAKE OF NOT PLAYING ARCHETYPES does.

This is a good point.

But the deck that you choose (or don't choose) doesn't make you a scrub.

Complaining that you can't beat better players who are playing better decks makes you a scrub.

And worse than that, it's make you a whiner.

You know how to fix it - play better decks and get better at playing them. Simple.

 

[Professor_Chris]

Condemnation of the winning deck is a lot of things, but prejudice? Against what exactly?

Do you not know what that word means? It would be prejudice against people who play that particular deck obviously. Prejudice isn't limited to racism and sexism. Anytime you form a preconceived notion about a person because they belong to a group of mostly unrelated people (such as people who play GG), you are being prejudice.

The rational thing to do is to play GG. This is not the fault of the player. It is a fault in the format. The blame rests solely on whoever decided the POP format without playtesting.

Please explain to me how one would go about play testing sets that won't be out for several months to a year later when you're deciding which sets to cut for the new format. It's not like they decide the day after worlds what the format will be.

 

[dogma]

Do you not know what that word means? It would be prejudice against people who play that particular deck obviously. Prejudice isn't limited to racism and sexism. Anytime you form a preconceived notion about a person because they belong to a group of mostly unrelated people (such as people who play GG), you are being prejudice.

Surely people have nothing against Jason et al. who play GG, but the deck itself. It isn't prejudice. People might not like the deck, they may deride people who play the deck, but it isn't prejudice. Lets not overstate an issue that is even barely there.

By the way, your own definition fails you. There is no preconceived notion about GG. The deck is out in the open, ready for anyone to utilise. What exactly is preconceived?

Please explain to me how one would go about play testing sets that won't be out for several months to a year later when you're deciding which sets to cut for the new format. It's not like they decide the day after worlds what the format will be.

...what?

Maybe because sets aren't printed and released the second they are designed? Because PCL have a development team? Because any sane person would not design sets in isolation to one another?

Because before POP decide on a format, they'd look at the cardpool, and PCL should be designing their latest sets with our format in mind (given how large the POP-administered market is)?

I might've misinterpreted your question, because it's not exactly rocket science...

 

[Phazon Elite]

So, from what I am reading here, you feel that the 'Gym, although not owned or operated by PUI is providing a dis-service to all the Elite players by providing a safe place for all players to share their opinions and ideas - you included?

Well, you almost got it right.

For one, I'm utterly terrible at this game, plain and simple.
Second, unless they want to spend their days answering the same questions over and over again, I don't really think there's much reason for the elite players to be here. (I'm not speaking on their behalf or as if I am one of them, I'm just providing my perspective.)
Third, This site is too large, so they can't really discuss in-depth strategies (the kind of stuff that only THEY can understand) without tipping off every little Johnnie out there as to what they're planning.
Fourth, to put the target demographic into perspective, if Pokegym was a public school, it would be a grade school.

That makes no sense to me. If all the elite players are to good to be here and this place is running a muck with lower skill level players, then why did the elites post this topic in the first place, wait I already know that - to remind us how good they are and how bad we all are.

Uhh . . . no. I highly doubt that is the case.
. . .
Unless by "we" you mean "people dissing the world champion." If that's what you meant, then yay, I agree.

PUI does not dictate what is posted here or by whom, the Staff of the 'Gym does, and in part, the members do.

Aren't most of the senior Staffers Head Judges and Tournament Organizers for PUI?

Maybe the collective PUI isn't deciding what is allowed on this site, but the individuals who apparently work for them certainly do.

meh, too tired to really construct an argument. I'll get to that later.

 

[EeveeLover]

Well, you almost got it right.

For one, I'm utterly terrible at this game, plain and simple.
Second, unless they want to spend their days answering the same questions over and over again, I don't really think there's much reason for the elite players to be here. (I'm not speaking on their behalf or as if I am one of them, I'm just providing my perspective.)
Third, This site is too large, so they can't really discuss in-depth strategies (the kind of stuff that only THEY can understand) without tipping off every little Johnnie out there as to what they're planning.
Fourth, to put the target demographic into perspective, if Pokegym was a public school, it would be a grade school.

I don't even think I have to say anything here.

Aren't most of the senior Staffers Head Judges and Tournament Organizers for PUI?

Maybe the collective PUI isn't deciding what is allowed on this site, but the individuals who apparently work for them certainly do.

meh, too tired to really construct an argument. I'll get to that later.

To explain the last point you made, as the first two are pretty easy.

Yes, most of the Senior Staff here at the 'Gym are HJ's and TO's / PTO's. So what? I am a TO / Judge, does that mean PUI decides what I can and cannot say? In part yes, I am not allowed to discuss things that are covered by a non disclosure agreement (NDA), I am also covered by a NDA for the 'Gym when dealing with Staff discussions.

Does that mean that because of those NDA's either PUI or the 'Gym spoon feeds me what to say? No, it does not. I discuss what I can and leave the other things to appropriate forums.

The 'Gym is not owned in any way, shape, or form by Nintendo, POP, PUI, or any other group. It is owned by Team Compendium, that team is composed of 5 normal people. Yes those people are PTO's / Judges / League Owners / Leaders - whatever. It could be owned by 5 people that have no clue what Pokgeyman is, much less care.

The Owners of this site are recognized by PUI as the official site for all rulings regarding card issues. That is the only connection. Other than that, the 'Gym is a public forum, a public fan site, which PUI has gone out of its way not to endorse any fansite. All they endorse is the Official Rulings, located in the Compendium.

I did mis-speak myself in one area of my post that you quoted.

PUI does not dictate what is posted here or by whom, the Staff of the 'Gym does, and in part, the members do.

Actually, what this should say, is the members dictate what is posted and discussed here, the Staff simply is here to keep things at a PG level and calm for everyone involved. You think if the Staff did not care to have the members discussing their issues we would have allowed the 'Ban G&G' topic to reach 30+ pages, knowing that it was not looking good to actually happen? If the Owners and Staff did not care, do you think the 'Gym would even be here? The Owners make sure this place stays open and accessible for everyone. As for the Staff, no one that does this job gets paid, we do what we do for the members, not for ourselves, just like the PTO's / TO's / Judges / LL's / LO's. We do what we do for the love of the game and to keep the game going for the players.