Slow Play Being Allowed Too Often? EDIT: Stance adjusted.

[psychup2034]

One deck I use has three Catchers. One Catcher is Gold, One is RH and One is normal, Going through the deck I see Golden and RH I know the third is prized without thinking too hard. Same with Switch- Base Set, Storm Front, HGSS and BW. I mean it's not possible for everything, but it's something easy I've tried in a few decks and it does shave a few seconds of the deck search to go through and go "Golden, RH and no regular got it. Base, SF, HGSS and BW all are there good to know." I'm sure it's nothing new, but just something I'd pass along.

Pro players generally do not play different versions of the same card because they need to keep the counts of cards secret from their opponent. I want to make it as difficult as possible for my opponents to deduce my decklist.

Exceptions include decks where you absolutely need to know what's prized, even without searching your deck (getting Ned for example). For example, a tight Chandy/Accelgor/Darkrai/Relicanth list from last format would require different versions of every card.

 

[Glumanda]

Do you ever consider that you make such amazing plays because you take an improper amount of time to think/plan? If you took a proper amount of time, maybe you would make less stellar plays? Like Jay said, part of the game is making plays in a time crunch, and sometimes this leads to making less than perfect plays, but you have to live with it.

Wonderful. This is always what I tell people that ask why slow play should be penalized. There are guidelines on how long you should think and if you break them you are gaining an advantage because it is quite obvious that the longer you think about a situation the better your decision will be (this is a general comment).

I like how players always think that just because they are in the extra turns they have now more time to think. Nope, the guidelines are still valid. You might get a little bit more leeway from judges but as others pointed out slow play in extra turns will be a disruption to the tournament.

There is an article on the Magic judge list called "Practical Approach to Slow Play" (you can google it very easily) which is an excellent read even if you have no clue about Magic about all because most things also apply to Pokemon.

 

[LOLZ]

For people concerned that judges are asleep at the wheel or something, I got a warning in the round 8 game shown and I didn't argue. It was a slow first few turns even by my standards. I received another warning in top 32 (that night) in plus 3 turns which I disagreed with, both because of context (plus 3 turns) and I thought my pace was reasonable in that game.

I went to bed that night (with top 16 in the morning) worried that I was going to soon get an unfair prize penalty or something and be eliminated because of the 2nd warning I didn't feel I deserved. Wouldn't that have been an unfair way to lose? I was really worried about this. Playing so many rounds, come that far and lose by something other than the board position? That last sentence is I believe what outraged the original poster, though he only saw it from one side.

You are viewing that 2nd warning as unwarranted and are thinking that if another slow playing issue arises you could of been issued what you called "an unfair prize card penalty". This would be "unfair prize card penalty" is something, in your eyes that could of been your 2nd warning. This is in fact the complete opposite way you should be looking at your 2nd warning. You should be looking at your 2nd warning as a "merciful warning".

You stated that you received a warning for slow play during round 8. Per the penalty guidelines, when you commit the same infraction over the course of a tournament, the penalty should be increased by 1 level for each of the following transgressions of the same nature. At the Tier 2 level, slow play starts at a warning and then the 2nd time a judge calls you on slow playing you should receive a prize card penalty. However penalty guidelines are just that, guidelines, judges do have the authority to escalate or deescalate penalties when the situation warrants it. When the judge called you on slow playing in T32 he/she could of had the justification to issue the prize card penalty right then and there as you already received a warning for slow play. The judge in this situation most likely took into consideration that it was +3 turns and issued you a 2nd warning. You should be thankful that the judging staff understood that the penalty guidelines are guidelines and not an a "penalty step by step instruction manual". Just because a game may be in the context of plus 3 turns does not give players the right to take more time to think of there plays and play slower. Doing so will only hold up the tournament.


"I thought my pace was reasonable in that game." ~Ross

There are alot of players who think that the time they take to think out their is reasonable, even Drew on commentary stated that he liked the fact that you weighed your options and took your time to make each play. I can sit down and appreciate an untimed game as much has anyone and hope that the players would think about there moves and provide spectators a good match, however players need to realize that in a tournament you are on the clock and there are standards for how long you should be taking to make a play. What players consider reasonable pace, does not matter during the course of a match, standards do exist and they are addressed by P!P in the Penalty Guidelines. Now if players want to disagree with the standards P!P have put into place, that is there right, however when playing in a tournament players should play according to P!P standards no matter their opinion. These standards also protect players from being rushed into making their plays.

The following are the standards put into place by P!P, these are only guidelines, taking a few less or extra seconds on each action is appropriate, what it comes down to when determining appropriate pace/slow play/stalling is the judging staff and their understanding of the tournament rules and penalty guidelines. Shen said it best a several posts back- " It is difficult to explicitly spell out on paper in the rules, but Judges need to do their job and use judgement to determine whether or not a player is stalling."~Shen

7.4. Game Tempo
The pace of a Pokémon TGC game should be lively without being excessively fast, and each player should receive approximately half of the allotted time for the game. However, the way players react to pressure can have an impact on the tempo at which they take their turns. Judges should watch for changes in tempo and make corrections if needed
In general, the following time limits for various game actions should be appropriate. The times given below are general guidelines; players attempting to compartmentalize their turn in order to use every second of the time allowed for the items below are almost certainly stalling and should be subject to the Unsporting Conduct: Severe penalties.

• Performing the actions of a card or attack: 15 seconds
• Shuffling and setup, game start: 2 minutes
• Shuffling and deck search, mid-game: 15 seconds
• Starting the turn after opponent’s “end of turn” announcement: 5 seconds
• Considering the game position before playing a card: 10 seconds

Notes during a game should be taken using the same time limits listed above. For example, a player making a note about their mid game deck search must do so in the same 15 seconds allowed for the action.

7.4.1. Slow Play
Players should take care to play in a manner that keeps the game pace lively, regardless of the complexity of the situation. A player who takes too long to make decisions about game play runs the risk of putting his or her opponent at a disadvantage due to the round’s time limit. In addition to the recommended penalty, the judge may issue a time extension to offset this disadvantage.
Examples of Game Tempo: Slow Play include:

• You are excessively slow when deciding which Pokémon to attach an Energy card to.
• You take an unreasonable amount of time deciding which Basic Pokémon to take from your deck after playing a Poké Ball card.
• Counting or searching your (or your opponent’s) deck or discard pile more than once in a short time period.
• Repeatedly searching your deck, hand, or discard pile while performing a card effect.
• Attempting to engage in extraneous conversation that interferes with timely play.

Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Caution
Tier 2: Warning

7.4.2. Rushing
Rushing involves a player trying to get his or her opponent to play faster. This can cause the opponent to lose his or her concentration, making the player more likely to make a mistake. Rushing is often a symptom of an opponent’s Slow Play, but it can also occur when a player is excited to get to his or her next turn.
Examples of Game Tempo: Rushing include:

• Placing your hand near your deck to draw a card during an opponent’s turn, indicating that you are ready to start your turn.
• Making exasperated noises or comments regarding your opponent’s actions.
• Rushing through your opponent’s attack step by putting damage on your Pokémon before your opponent announces which attack is being used, or the total damage being done to the Defending Pokémon.

Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Caution
Tier 2: Warning

 

[meganium45]

I will say this. As a judge up and down the spectrum, judging slow play is a delicate balance.

There are situations in which players need time to make decisions, and crucial plays, but you do not want either player "abusing the clock.

It sounds like the judges in this event balanced the situations correctly.

I always feel that if a player felt justified by every one of my slow play calls, then some things have been allowed that should not have been.

We do entire judging seminars on judging slow play and the difference between slow play and taking time to make a decision. When it becomes a problem, and what to do about said problem.

Even in this enviornment, it is an issue, even with 75 minutes, as Jay quite accurately stated, the goal is to have his fair share of the time.

Vince

 

[Pooka]

I think a match like this one would be why people are complaining: Top 8 - Matt Alvis vs. Ross Cawthon

Sorry to spoil the series if you haven't had a chance to watch it, but here's fair warning if you want to watch it first. Basically Matt turned in an illegal decklist, which caused him to play without his entire Hydreigon line. So, his deck turned into... Sableye, Darkrai, and 20 Energy (with some Rare Candy). His deck is going to be simple, and so are his turns. Yet somehow this two game series manages to take about 75 minutes. Yes, Matt took some lengthy turns, but Ross takes up most of the clock by far. I really do not think that Ross is playing slowly to gain an advantage, but at some point you do have to give your opponent an equal opportunity to play the game; that is the issue at hand here.

 

[Kayle]

Do you ever consider that you make such amazing plays because you take an improper amount of time to think/plan? If you took a proper amount of time, maybe you would make less stellar plays?

Don't you think it's weird that you are literally known in the community for taking absurdly long turns/playing slowly?

This is something of an emotional and sore subject with me.

I know Ross. I've played him a few times though I doubt he really remembers. I remember being frustrated with how long his turns took, going home to talk to my gf about the tournament, and bringing up with her how long his turns took and my frustration with it. It felt like I was getting intentionally slow-rolled and I felt like he was acting smug and superior in the process.

(I didn't know Ross very well at the time.)

But she took another side of the argument. She pointed out to me that she played VERY slowly (which was true). She didn't like to make a move without considering all of her options and being sure it was the best move she could make; she'd made far too many simple mistakes and wanted to keep herself calm, collected, and in control under pressure. She was upset that I had felt antagonized by Ross, because that same feeling really drove her away from tournament play. She felt like she played slowly and people would get angry with her for it, and so she'd be ruining people's events. (Edit: To be clear, she never got any official warnings for slow play, she wasn't disrupting the game - but she was much more thoughtful and thorough than her opponents and her opponents tended to react poorly.)

TLDR, this was actually a pretty deciding factor in her dropping Pokemon, and that in turn was crushing for me because that was how we met and initially bonded (and, eventually, partially broke up over, which only makes it way worse). People talk about how friendly the Pokemon community is and I initially leap to agree - but then I think about this, and how awful it felt to know that she couldn't play without feeling pressured from her opponent, and... ughhhh!

I can't take a side in this argument. On one hand, I recognize the need for a lively pace of play, I understand that "slow play" (stalling) is a problem that needs to be addressed, and I recognize that even unintentional slow play can give an unfair advantage. But on the other hand, some players just need some time to think. I've actually made a point of trying to slow myself down because I recognize that I don't think through nearly as much as I ought to.

I understand people get frustrated when something inconveniences them, or when they worry that someone is doing something unfair, but I wish they would take some time to examine how it might feel from the perpetrator's point of view before jumping to any conclusions.

 

[AnUnown]

This is something of an emotional and sore subject with me.

I know Ross. I've played him a few times though I doubt he really remembers. I remember being frustrated with how long his turns took, going home to talk to my gf about the tournament, and bringing up with her how long his turns took and my frustration with it. It felt like I was getting intentionally slow-rolled and I felt like he was acting smug and superior in the process.

(I didn't know Ross very well at the time.)

But she took another side of the argument. She pointed out to me that she played VERY slowly (which was true). She didn't like to make a move without considering all of her options and being sure it was the best move she could make; she'd made far too many simple mistakes and wanted to keep herself calm, collected, and in control under pressure. She was upset that I had felt antagonized by Ross, because that same feeling really drove her away from tournament play. She felt like she played slowly and people would get angry with her for it, and so she'd be ruining people's events. (Edit: To be clear, she never got any official warnings for slow play, she wasn't disrupting the game - but she was much more thoughtful and thorough than her opponents and her opponents tended to react poorly.)

TLDR, this was actually a pretty deciding factor in her dropping Pokemon, and that in turn was crushing for me because that was how we met and initially bonded (and, eventually, partially broke up over, which only makes it way worse). People talk about how friendly the Pokemon community is and I initially leap to agree - but then I think about this, and how awful it felt to know that she couldn't play without feeling pressured from her opponent, and... ughhhh!

I can't take a side in this argument. On one hand, I recognize the need for a lively pace of play, I understand that "slow play" (stalling) is a problem that needs to be addressed, and I recognize that even unintentional slow play can give an unfair advantage. But on the other hand, some players just need some time to think. I've actually made a point of trying to slow myself down because I recognize that I don't think through nearly as much as I ought to.

I understand people get frustrated when something inconveniences them, or when they worry that someone is doing something unfair, but I wish they would take some time to examine how it might feel from the perpetrator's point of view before jumping to any conclusions.

Good points Kayle, though I guess it would come down to what the rules stated. If, in a tournament environment, you're limited to X seconds, then you shouldn't stray too far from that. For those who can't work in those constraints, perhaps the competitive field isn't for them. That's not to dismiss them either, I know many people who love pokemon, but only play at the fun/league level.

 

[LOLZ]

Good points Kayle, though I guess it would come down to what the rules stated. If, in a tournament environment, you're limited to X seconds, then you shouldn't stray too far from that. For those who can't work in those constraints, perhaps the competitive field isn't for them. That's not to dismiss them either, I know many people who love pokemon, but only play at the fun/league level.

Go read post 43. See 2nd quote.

 

[Kayle]

Well, the heart of my story is more based in opponents' pressure than the actual constraint of slow play. Like I said, she never got the slightest indication, from an official source, that she was playing too slow. She played quite a bit, though top cut was pretty rare for her. I played with her a lot, watched a lot of her games, etc... she wasn't playing terribly slow. She was a little faster than Ross. I think that's a pretty safe comparison.

I'd like to say that if you play much slower than her or Ross, you probably are taking too long to really play all that well anyway. But then, Ross is one of the best players in the game, so...

Time is a part of Pokemon gameplay, but we've always been frustrated at the way it limits our deck options. It's even worse that we might limit the way players are able to consider their options.

 

[CaterpiesAreOP]

I feel slow play can be disruptive at times, you slow the pace of the game and emotions can build up due to being frustrated with turns dragging on. I think one should be more courteous when they realize they have taking up too much time, I wouldn't wanna ruin the mood of the match. Always want to keep the game fun for both players, waiting on a 4 minute turn is not fun.

 

[Kayle]

I feel slow play can be disruptive at times, you slow the pace of the game and emotions can build up due to being frustrated with turns dragging on. I think one should be more courteous when they realize they have taking up too much time, I wouldn't wanna ruin the mood of the match. Always want to keep the game fun for both players, waiting on a 4 minute turn is not fun.

Neither is being rushed out of the time you need to really think through what you want to do, or feeling like your opponent is frustrated with you because you don't want to make any mistakes.

This is exactly what I meant when I said I wished people put some thought into the perpetrator's point of view. Your point is valid, yes, but so is the exact counterpoint.

I feel that "slow play" is a delicate matter best left to judges. The more you try to take it into your own hands, the more unfriendly of an environment you're going to bring to a match. Let the judges deal with the rules.

 

[psychup2034]

Neither is being rushed out of the time you need to really think through what you want to do, or feeling like your opponent is frustrated with you because you don't want to make any mistakes.

Learning to make sound strategic decisions under a clock is part of the skill involved with Pokemon. If the time you need to think through what you want to do is greater than the time allotted for making those decisions, then that's an area of skill that differentiates players. If your actually are playing slower than permitted by the rules, your opponent should be frustrated with your pace of play. "I don't want to make any mistakes" is not an excuse for slow playing.

I understand that occasionally there will be a turn where my opponent needs to make a tough decision. I'm always fine with giving my opponent to think about their move at a critical juncture of the game. However, there's a difference between occasionally taking some time to make a tough decision and habitually playing like a Slowpoke.

I feel that "slow play" is a delicate matter best left to judges. The more you try to take it into your own hands, the more unfriendly of an environment you're going to bring to a match. Let the judges deal with the rules.

That's not quite right. Section 4 of the penalty guidelines clearly state that:

It is each player’s responsibility to ensure that he or she and his or her opponent are playing by both the game and tournament rules.

Both players have a responsibility to maintain a lively pace of play. If you feel like your opponent is playing slow, ask your opponent politely to speed up their play. If there's a further problem, call over a judge and have him/her watch your opponent play.

Obviously, there's a difference between asking your opponent to play faster and rushing, which is a rules violation in itself. Rushing involves taking actions yourself (like putting your hand on your deck to draw a card before your opponent's turn is over, or making grunting noise in disgust, etc.) to attempt to speed up your opponent's play.

The one time I've been most upset in my Pokemon career was when I was 10 and I lost a tournament in the finals because of my opponent's habitual slow playing. My opponent took some ridiculously long turns, and clearly did not maintain a lively pace of play. Obviously, back then, there weren't really specific rules about slow playing. That was the one time I cried a little at a Pokemon tournament. Ever since, I've been vehemently against slow playing. Once in a game at a critical spot is OK. Perpetual slow playing is against the rules.

I have a couple good friends that play a little slower than I'm comfortable with. Depending on the situation, I'm not afraid to call them out on it. It's nothing personal. It's the rules. I'm putting myself at a disadvantage if I don't speak up about my opponent's slow play. As mentioned before, I want my equitable share of the clock, just like everyone else.

 

[Jaeger]

Psychup: I agree 100% I would love to take 10 minutes to think out every move as well confirm with Jason, Kyle and Ross to make sure we all agree...but thats not how this game is supposed to be played.

Ross 100% deserved this win and nobody can say otherwise, but I do think it brings forward the issue of the right amount of time to make plays.

 

[Kayle]

Learning to make sound strategic decisions under a clock is part of the skill involved with Pokemon. If the time you need to think through what you want to do is greater than the time allotted for making those decisions, then that's an area of skill that differentiates players. If your actually are playing slower than permitted by the rules, your opponent should be frustrated with your pace of play. "I don't want to make any mistakes" is not an excuse for slow playing.

I understand that occasionally there will be a turn where my opponent needs to make a tough decision. I'm always fine with giving my opponent to think about their move at a critical juncture of the game. However, there's a difference between occasionally taking some time to make a tough decision and habitually playing like a Slowpoke.

You're kind of imagining something that isn't there.

When I started playing, I was always excited to make big moves. So much so that I would forget to think through consequences. I would bench Pokemon as soon as I drew them, then reconsider and realize maybe there might've been a reason to wait.

It's natural to allow an opponent the time to think through your board position when they're about to lose unless they are very, very careful. I'm talking about a player that draws a card very carefully so as not to knock over her deck or damage the card, who looks through her hand to make sure she didn't miss anything - maybe re-sorts her cards swiftly now that she's got another to consider - glances at the board to ensure she didn't miss anything, and then makes a play... and repeats, on each play, just to make sure she's not missing something. Every time. Very thorough, very aware, and very thoughtful. "Slow".

It's perfectly allowed within the rules and, in reality, it makes for a lively pace of play overall, just like Ross. Ross' games turn out within perfectly normal time limits except that he takes a very long initial search and tends to be a methodical thinker.

Just because someone is playing slower and taking their time, moreso than you or than the average, doesn't mean they are disrupting the event. If you bring the attitude I'm seeing in your posts to a player like my gf you're going to mess with her experience of the event and the match because she's not doing anything wrong but you're going to make her feel like she is.

I'm exiting the scope of the original argument by now, but I just want my point to be clear. I want people to bear in mind that what seems "slow" to you has a lot to do with your mental state, the pace of play you're used to, and a number of other subjective factors. You can't make a clear judgment about whether an opponent is taking too long throughout the course of a game when you yourself are under pressure to perform as well.

 

[Jaeger]

I'm exiting the scope of the original argument by now, but I just want my point to be clear. I want people to bear in mind that what seems "slow" to you has a lot to do with your mental state, the pace of play you're used to, and a number of other subjective factors. You can't make a clear judgment about whether an opponent is taking too long throughout the course of a game when you yourself are under pressure to perform as well.

This is where your wrong...slow to some people might be 80MPH...cops still going to give you a ticket.

 

[Kayle]

This is where your wrong...slow to some people might be 80MPH...cops still going to give you a ticket.

I'm not wrong, you're just using an example vastly out of proportion. If you search my discard pile four times in a turn I'm going to call a judge. If I'm three MPH over the limit a cop's probably going to ignore me (possibly because he doesn't care, possibly because he figures I'm legitimately in a hurry).

 

[psychup2034]

I'm exiting the scope of the original argument by now, but I just want my point to be clear. I want people to bear in mind that what seems "slow" to you has a lot to do with your mental state, the pace of play you're used to, and a number of other subjective factors. You can't make a clear judgment about whether an opponent is taking too long throughout the course of a game when you yourself are under pressure to perform as well.

Slow is defined objectively by the number of seconds you take to perform a certain action. Read this:

In general, the following time limits for various game actions should be appropriate. The times given below are general guidelines; players attempting to compartmentalize their turn in order to use every second of the time allowed for the items below are almost certainly stalling and should be subject to the Unsporting Conduct: Severe penalties.
• Performing the actions of a card or attack: 15 seconds
• Shuffling and setup, game start: 2 minutes
• Shuffling and deck search, mid-game: 15 seconds
• Starting the turn after opponent’s “end of turn” announcement: 5 seconds
• Considering the game position before playing a card: 10 seconds

You are absolutely incorrect in saying that "slow" is subjectively defined by mental state, the pace of play one is used to, or any other subjective factor. Pressure is not an excuse. Performing under time pressure is a skill.

---------- Post added 10/16/2012 at 06:33 PM ----------

I'm not wrong.

Yes you are. The rules define slow play objectively, yet you're somehow above the rules to define slow play subjectively?

---------- Post added 10/16/2012 at 06:35 PM ----------

Just because judges sometimes use subjective judgement to determine a penalty, it doesn't mean that the rules about slow playing are subjective. They're not.

 

[Kayle]

You are absolutely incorrect in saying that "slow" is subjectively defined by mental state, the pace of play one is used to, or any other subjective factor. Pressure is not an excuse. Performing under time pressure is a skill.

What you see as slow is subjective.

The judge is an objective authority. The player is not. Please stop putting words in my mouth and just read what I say.

You shouldn't be pressuring a player who isn't doing something wrong.

 

[Jaeger]

What you see as slow is subjective.

The judge is an objective authority. The player is not. Please stop putting words in my mouth and just read what I say.

You shouldn't be pressuring a player who isn't doing something wrong.

Please make a point that you can defend :/

 

[psychup2034]

What you see as slow is subjective.

The judge is an objective authority. The player is not. Please stop putting words in my mouth and just read what I say.

You shouldn't be pressuring a player who isn't doing something wrong.

No. If I look at the clock, and I see that my opponent has taken 30 seconds to determine his/her next move. I know he/she is slow playing. That's objective.

Your claim that a player cannot objectively determine whether his/her opponent is slow playing is ludicrous. Some people both play and judge. If what you're claiming is correct (it's actually not), then somehow that person would be able to objectively determine whether someone is slow playing when they are judging (the qualification for that person to be an "objective authority"), but somehow magically loses the ability to objectively determine whether someone is slow playing when they are playing? That's just silly.