This does help relieve stress of the clock on any given individual match because it gives more time to players to actually play the game and not for games to come down to time, however adding more time will only add stress to the tournament clock as a whole. TOs who have venue restrictions may have difficultly securing a venue for additional time especially if they already have a venue from open to close. We have had 30 + 3 for swiss for a few years now, it has worked up until now, what has changed, why is this all of a sudden an issue?
Slow Play Being Allowed Too Often? EDIT: Stance adjusted.
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This does help relieve stress of the clock on any given individual match because it gives more time to players to actually play the game and not for games to come down to time, however adding more time will only add stress to the tournament clock as a whole. TOs who have venue restrictions may have difficultly securing a venue for additional time especially if they already have a venue from open to close. We have had 30 + 3 for swiss for a few years now, it has worked up until now, what has changed, why is this all of a sudden an issue?
NoPoke
Active Member
SLOW PLAY is not a judge issue. Judges don't cause slow play, and given that one to one table judging is uncommon during swiss play judges can't even be accused of allowing it.
I've been shouted at by players when after the second period of extended budda time in the same turn said player was asked to pick up the pace and play a card. Shouted at because I was disturbing their thoughts. Well of course I was, but the point that many players don't get is that they are not practicing to be monks and that perception of time is different when you are deep in thought.
I'm grateful to the top cut for making these videos as they will allow a more detailed examination of timing and pace. The goal of which is to ensure that as much as practical games complete at the tables. The game that Ross is being so heavily criticised for very nearly did complete at the tables. Yes the pace was off a little but not so much that it deserves either the attacks or the praise for the depth of thought that Ross evidently puts into his play.
Some players are like the swan on the surface effortlessly and serenely gliding through play, others like the swan's feet paddling furiously under water. Its very easy to see the furious paddling as a faster pace of play when it is not.
I've been shouted at by players when after the second period of extended budda time in the same turn said player was asked to pick up the pace and play a card. Shouted at because I was disturbing their thoughts. Well of course I was, but the point that many players don't get is that they are not practicing to be monks and that perception of time is different when you are deep in thought.
I'm grateful to the top cut for making these videos as they will allow a more detailed examination of timing and pace. The goal of which is to ensure that as much as practical games complete at the tables. The game that Ross is being so heavily criticised for very nearly did complete at the tables. Yes the pace was off a little but not so much that it deserves either the attacks or the praise for the depth of thought that Ross evidently puts into his play.
Some players are like the swan on the surface effortlessly and serenely gliding through play, others like the swan's feet paddling furiously under water. Its very easy to see the furious paddling as a faster pace of play when it is not.
It's should've, not should of. You do that a lot.
ryanvergel
New Member
I don't even know what you're saying.
I've never, in public, seen someone wear their watch SIDEWAYS. You wear a watch at a particular angle to make it easier to see. You have to ask yourself, why is he wearing the watch that way? You wear it to make it easier to see, so it is easier to see while looking at his hand. Why else would you wear it that way?
It then begs further questions.
Nice troll attempt, though, Isaiah.
Ross: I think you're taking offense a little too easily. I said it was probably a coincidence, but I don't think it's wrong to wonder, or to think further. If I see a lot of coincidences, it makes me think they are no longer coincidences. Take a word of advice from your boy, Mulder :lol:. The truth is out there? I just want to know what it is. That's why I asked so many questions. Just going by this small sample size it looks fishy. That's not to say that you are fishy or anything, but it leaves doubt in my mind, and I think the doubt is reasonable, given merely the data presented.
Personal attacks? I wasn't trying to be offensive or anything. I want to dispel any negative thoughts in my mind, and for that I need to see more data. That's why I asked how many of your games went to time, how often you get turn 1 in the +3, etc. You think analytically too, you try to see every possible explanation. and you try to notice patterns. Your thought patterns aren't so different from mine.
I wasn't trying to insinuate anything, and if I did, I apologize. I was just using the small sample size I had to point out things that didn't sit well with me. I am seeking more data to get a conclusive opinion.
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Glad to see someone is paying attention to my posts! :thumb:
Kenshin's Garde
Active Member
DAS (legitimately) RACIST.
This is NOT Isaiah. Nice try though!And I guess we might just hang out with different crowds? I don't know, I hang out with CSE people a lot and I see a lot of them wear their watches sideways. Even some of my humanities friends do this (and I've seen one of my professors wear their watch LITERALLY upside down, palm down!) Just an observation, and not one that I admit is a very common occurrence. I'm just saying that it DOES happen. Whether or not a single player falls within that minority doesn't make them a cheater automatically, it means they just happen to wear their watch that way.
You're blowing a single issue on how someone wears things WAY out of proportion. Considering this is a discussion concerning slow play and NOT stalling, your argument doesn't even make sense towards forwarding your end goal (which, to me, looks to make out Ross as not only a slow player but an intentional staller.)
ryanvergel
New Member
DAS (legitimately) RACIST.
And I guess we might just hang out with different crowds? I don't know, I hang out with CSE people a lot and I see a lot of them wear their watches sideways. Even some of my humanities friends do this (and I've seen one of my professors wear their watch LITERALLY upside down, palm down!) Just an observation, and not one that I admit is a very common occurrence. I'm just saying that it DOES happen. Whether or not a single player falls within that minority doesn't make them a cheater automatically, it means they just happen to wear their watch that way.
You're blowing a single issue on how someone wears things WAY out of proportion. Considering this is a discussion concerning slow play and NOT stalling, your argument doesn't even make sense towards forwarding your end goal (which, to me, looks to make out Ross as not only a slow player but an intentional staller.)
I'm adopted by Filipinos. My entire family is asian. hard to be racist against asians if my entire family and culture is asian. The name is out there
I have a really hard time following what you are saying.
What issue am I blowing way out of proportion? The wearing of a watch?
It is very abnormal, and like I said earlier, one wears a watch at an angle to make it easier to view at certain angles. Namely, while looking at the hand. It begs further questions of why one would want to be able to look at the time while not seeming like you're looking at the time.
My goal of making Ross look like an intentional staller? I know you have your own obvious bias and all, but I am just going by what I have seen. The video certainly doesn't help the case of "this is just playing slowly and not stalling". The video, if that is all you watched, makes it seem like the opposite.
With that said, since the video and what is seen implies it could very easily be more than slowplay, combined with the way he wore his watch,and that he was turn 1, I asked for more evidence, so I could refute my own observations and try to clear any possible doubt up.
Try to be objective about this, and put your bias aside. I'm just going by what the video has to offer, and nothing more. It looks fishy. I'm not the only one who saw things as fishy.
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Bigbowlr1037
New Member
I think this scenario is where we can adapt a procedure from the WoW TCG. The end of time procedure always ends on the turn of the player who went 2nd. So if times called on the turn of the player who went first, they finish their turn and 3 turns are then played. If time is called on the turn of the player who went 2nd they finish their turn and 4 turns are then played. This prevented players from playing the clock so they could get the last turn becausethey knew who had the last turn no matter when time was called.
Kenshin's Garde
Active Member
Naw, I'm just trolling here, dude. The name IS out there. <3I'm adopted by Filipinos. My entire family is asian. hard to be racist against asians if my entire family and culture is asian. The name is out there
I'm going off my 10+ years of experience playing against Ross, both in and out of tournament play. This is just how he plays games. If you think this is bad, don't ever play a practice game against him...you'll want to kill yourself. Now, while this makes games rather tedious in practice it makes for a more accurate "worst case scenario" testing situation. Admittedly, great for testing, horrible for tournament play. However, Ross definitely picks up his pace of play in a tournament in order to compensate both for the time lost and to more accurately maintain tournament guidelines.
If you want to discuss whether this faster play is close enough to the guidelines, that's fine by me. That's what these forums are for. However, it doesn't make sense to single out one particular individual and then analyze every minute detail when doing so implies cheating and gaming the system rather than actually proving your position on slow playing. This is obviously due to the fact that there is video footage of these matches compared to others, and that's fine to an extent. However, from your current analysis, you're only investigating this issue based on this one match alone. As such, it's pretty hard not to see this as a witch hunt compared to an otherwise lively discussion of gameplay issues.
No hard feelings, I haven't slept in 48 hours, and I'm glad this discussion is happening on these forums rather than at the judge's table during a match. I just really wish people would lay off Ross (or other individuals if other examples arise).
psychup2034
New Member
Um, that's not at all the entirety of my viewpoint. Let's take a look at what I have actually said.
This isn't a presidential debate. There's no need to selectively quote my posts with incomplete context as to misrepresent what I say in order to make your own point. Take my position in its entirety and comment on that.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
I don't know WoW TCG...does it have the concept of taking prizes? When time is running out and you know the prize count and you know you're going to be the last turn...still sounds gameable but in a different way.
psychup2034
New Member
Just kidding. The first quote I chose to represent my complete viewpoint actually came from the exact excerpt of my post that you quoted. :nonono: Perhaps you should read the quoted text that you are commenting on before actually commenting...
ryanvergel
New Member
Very good points.
I totally agree.
Ross, sorry if it seemed like I was singling you out or anything. Not my intentions. I was just going by this one video, and I do not mean to insinuate anything negative or anything.
Again, I apologize for misrepresenting you or implying anything. None of that was intended. I think I went off of the first post rather than the title- of whether slow play is being allowed too often.
As far as the topic question goes- is slow play being allowed too often? Unfortunately, not much can be done to change anything.
If you reduce any of the timeframes (of shuffling, looking through discard, etc) you make those moments when you NEED that full time harder than they already are. On the opposite side, you make stalling/slowplay harder. It's a not a win win. The key is a balance, and for the most part, the rules are pretty balanced.
Solutions to slowplay are making top cut rounds longer, are fixing swiss rounds (I don't think +3 is the best way to go), making it more difficult to slowplay (removing watches, encouraging people to call judges over, maybe getting more judges).
Bigbowlr1037
New Member
They dont have prizes but similar concerns were brought up. Yes its gameable in a different way but what balanced it slightly was it balanced the advantages of going first by knowing your opponent gets the last turn.
psychup2034
New Member
Wearing a watch is allowed per current the understood enforcement of tournament rules. Here's a better question: why would he not wear a watch if it is allowed?
ryanvergel
New Member
We don't need to be discussing this here- I've already made a thread about watch wearing.
We KNOW it's advantageous to wear a watch. We KNOW it isn't against the rules to wear a watch.
There are two solutions.
Either remove the advantage of wearing a watch- which would be elongating time rounds, or doing away with +3
Or, change the rules to disallow them
Or, my favorite, disallow them while trying to elongate times and improve upon +3. Let's not waste time- we know it's advantageous and legal to wear a watch. What you do with the watch, well, that can be within the rules, it can also be cheating/breaking the rules. The problem is it's almost impossible to know or prove. let's just save the effort and take it to the thread I made dedicated to the subject.
We KNOW it's advantageous to wear a watch. We KNOW it isn't against the rules to wear a watch.
There are two solutions.
Either remove the advantage of wearing a watch- which would be elongating time rounds, or doing away with +3
Or, change the rules to disallow them
Or, my favorite, disallow them while trying to elongate times and improve upon +3. Let's not waste time- we know it's advantageous and legal to wear a watch. What you do with the watch, well, that can be within the rules, it can also be cheating/breaking the rules. The problem is it's almost impossible to know or prove. let's just save the effort and take it to the thread I made dedicated to the subject.
Kenshin's Garde
Active Member
What? I'm sure you remember the stalling heydays of 2004-2008, right? Where games would just end on time? That's a step in the wrong direction. Changing the situation is the solution I *think* you're implying but that's easier said than done, especially partway through the season. Can changes be implemented? Sure. Has sufficient time been taken to insure this solves the stalling/slow play problem? Probably not, and probably not for awhile (especially given Nintendo's oh so illustrious history of getting stuff done in a timely manner.)
Again, though, this deserves a thread in and of itself. Thank you for making that ahead of time, Ryan.
While I don't really remember you saying anything, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you did. But to be fair, our game didn't even get close to time. But yeah, you have a point, and it's been well taken.
SO, this thread ended up going in totally the wrong direction from my intent. I really just wanted to spark discussion on slowplay, and bring up a perceived issue with a game that bothered me a lot, when it turns out the judges handled it perfectly at the time, although I didn't know that until Ross' very well thought out and appreciated post.
So, in what is likely my last real relevant post here, THANK YOU Ross for being level headed and speaking clearly and plainly here. I appreciate your responses and completely understand your perspective, and I'm sorry I sparked some negative responses towards you.
Really, I think the whole thread should boil down to this: If you are uncomfortable with how much time someone take, call a Judge. They can handle it.
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