Slow Play Being Allowed Too Often? EDIT: Stance adjusted.

[LibertyFigter]

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I think, to be completely honest, everyone, including Kayle, is in agreement. Everyone seems to be advocating the exact same course of action: if you feel as if your opponent is playing slower than what you deem a "lively" pace, you may ask them politely to speed up and/or call a judge to make that call for you. At that point, it is in the judge's hands.

This has been said a lot in this thread, and I still think it is true.

I think the best interest of the thread is to discuss the intended topic, which, according to the title, is whether or not slow play occurs too much/goes unimpeded too often? Not about whether Ross slow played, and not even about what to do when someone slow-plays you.

Personally, I see most of my opponents and those around me playing at a reasonable pace. In my opinion, slow play isn't allowed too often, and we in the PTCG community are pretty good at keeping things "lively." : ).

 

[r3skyline]

Wearing a watch is allowed per current the understood enforcement of tournament rules. Here's a better question: why would he not wear a watch if it is allowed?

Thats not a better question at all. Thats similar to a response i would expect from my 10 year old son.

 

[ryanvergel]

Yeah, I made that thread 3 months, after observing nationals and traveling a lot that year. I went to TX regionals, TN, AL, and FL states, then Indi in June. So I was playing in 5 huge tournaments in 5 different states, and I just noticed a lot of these inconsistencies and all these different ways to abuse time.

I want to eliminate the use of watches, among other things. The other things are tougher to do, and can't really be discussed. Heck, I may have done more harm to the game with that thread oh god...

As far as getting rid of +3, I'm not saying without doing anything else. If things like this were better

I think this scenario is where we can adapt a procedure from the WoW TCG. The end of time procedure always ends on the turn of the player who went 2nd. So if times called on the turn of the player who went first, they finish their turn and 3 turns are then played. If time is called on the turn of the player who went 2nd they finish their turn and 4 turns are then played. This prevented players from playing the clock so they could get the last turn becausethey knew who had the last turn no matter when time was called.

, or even returning to 40 minute days, or implementing 75 minute standard top cut rounds, it may be better than having +3 turns. I'm not sure, I'm just saying +3 seems easily abusable when combined with a watch. You can fix either,

That is what this thread boils down to- you have a problem of finite time in the game. But some people try to game the system by either manipulation the +3, or by slowplaying, and knowing when to play fast, whatever it may be. The point is, a clock gives you information that SEEMS like it shouldn't be there to begin with, regardless if both players have access to it if they bring a watch and look at it often enough. The reasons it seems like it shouldn't be there are stated in that other thread. So you can either fix the need for a watch- which is the constraint of time, or eliminate the ability to work the system with the advantage of a watch.

That is what this thread is about, anyways. Is slow play being allowed? I don't know, but maybe we should re-evaluate how we deal with time and reduce the need or strength of slowplaying. If you get more time, you won't slowplay as much. But if we can't do that, while we have 60 minute rounds, we can at least make it less easy to abuse the system. 40 minute rounds? ending +3 being based on start turn? even number afterwards? fluctuating end time? who knows. I think either the 30+3/60+3, 4 prize, SD situation we will end up having all the time has to change, or how we approach the matches needs to change. Maybe the system can be better. If it can't, or in the meantime, reduce the ability to cheat and make the rules/practices consistent.

 

[psychup2034]

Thats not a better question at all. Thats similar to a response i would expect from my 10 year old son.

I strongly doubt that a hypothetical 10-year-old would respond in a more informed way than his father, but I'll take your word for it. Congratulations, your 10-year-old son is well beyond his years.

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

My goal of making Ross look like an intentional staller? I know you have your own obvious bias and all, but I am just going by what I have seen. The video certainly doesn't help the case of "this is just playing slowly and not stalling". The video, if that is all you watched, makes it seem like the opposite.

With that said, since the video and what is seen implies it could very easily be more than slowplay, combined with the way he wore his watch,and that he was turn 1, I asked for more evidence, so I could refute my own observations and try to clear any possible doubt up.

Try to be objective about this, and put your bias aside. I'm just going by what the video has to offer, and nothing more. It looks fishy. I'm not the only one who saw things as fishy.

Even if you want to base my whole reputation on one game, which is as ridiculous as it sounds when I've had judges watching me at regional championships, national championships, world championships for more than a decade, but even in this one game:

My first 3 turns are long. The rest are not. I didn't need to win on time until he hammered my fire on turn 0. If I wanted to time things right, why leave even 20 seconds (quoting from your post) especially when he's paralyzed? You're taking the 5050 chance time is called on my opponent's turn and turning it into a conspiracy. If that isn't enough, there is simply the fact that I did not try to manipulate time in any way. I had no idea time would be called when it was. It hadn't crossed my mind I was out of Fire until he hit the Hammer and I checked which was after time was called.

I do wear my watch that way to see it more easily. I use my watch exactly as much as I say in my last post: not much at all. And I never meticulously stall the way you suggest, or stall in any way for that matter.

Trying to find evidence and keep an open mind and be objective on a subject is fine and great. Slandering someone on a public forum with accusations with no evidence is not. That's defamation. That's illegal, even on the internet. http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/defamation

You've apologized so I don't need to keep talking about this. But your witch hunt was in no way reasonable. It is not reasonable to defame someone based on VERY hypothetical readings into one piece of evidence. There is a burden of proof expected before you accuse someone's character, even on the internet. That's not just a moral opinion or the opinion of the pokegym, that is a law.

Not to mention the many players and judges who have actually watched multiple of my games in person who have defended me. Thank you.

 

[Jaeger]

While I don't really remember you saying anything, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you did. But to be fair, our game didn't even get close to time. But yeah, you have a point, and it's been well taken.

SO, this thread ended up going in totally the wrong direction from my intent. I really just wanted to spark discussion on slowplay, and bring up a perceived issue with a game that bothered me a lot, when it turns out the judges handled it perfectly at the time, although I didn't know that until Ross' very well thought out and appreciated post.

So, in what is likely my last real relevant post here, THANK YOU Ross for being level headed and speaking clearly and plainly here. I appreciate your responses and completely understand your perspective, and I'm sorry I sparked some negative responses towards you.

Really, I think the whole thread should boil down to this: If you are uncomfortable with how much time someone take, call a Judge. They can handle it.

Theres a fine line between thinking an opponent is stalling and just taking a few extra seconds on a play. This should determine how you respond.

When you and I were playing you had a big deceision to make so I gave you a good 30-40 seconds and than said "you have a play man." You were very polite, said sorry and made your play.

You weren't trying to slow play me so I wasn't going to be a ***** and get a judge over to monitor the pace of play.

Had this happened alot sure I probably would have just so you didn't call me on rushing. But a lot of the time people take a few extra seconds and a friendly "you got a play man" is all thats needed. Its really a fine line though.

 

[shuffledraw]

Whether or not someone seems like a "nice person" is irrelevant when it comes to cheating. In fact, it is in the best interest for a cheater to be well liked because then they are more likely to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to a suspicious situation. I personally found this article do be a decent example of the concept.

I do wear my watch that way to see it more easily. I use my watch exactly as much as I say in my last post: not much at all.

You saying it isn't done to cheat doesn't make the act itself any less suspicious. At the end of the day it still comes down to a judgement call based on your word. If people are willing to trust your explanations, then that's all that needs to be said about the issue.

 

[psychup2034]

You saying it isn't done to cheat doesn't make the act itself any less suspicious. At the end of the day it still comes down to a judgement call based on your word. If people are willing to trust your explanations, then that's all that needs to be said about the issue.

First of all, wearing a watch is currently legal. So Ross is doing something legal, but you find it suspicious? That sounds ridiculous.

One might make the illogical argument that "if he looks at his watch, he might be trying to slow play his opponent" or "if we wasn't trying to use time to his advantage in an illegal way, why would be wear a watch?" Here's why these arguments are illogical: whether you slow play or not depends entirely on your pace of play, not based on what accessories you are wearing. Obviously, knowing exactly when a round ends can be advantageous, but it's an advantage that is in every way legal. Using the knowledge of when the round ends to slow play one's opponent is not legal, but I fail to see where Ross is slow playing near the end of a round in the videos. (Perhaps you could enlighten me?)

Trying to tie the legality of wearing a watch to Ross' word is even more ridiculous. There are objective factors that we can look at in these videos to determine whether Ross tries to manipulate time to his advantage because of his knowledge of the time left in a round. If you watch the videos, you'll see that Ross doesn't try to do that.

Wearing a watch might be suspicious to you because of your personal paranoia, but one would be quite inane to crucify Ross for wearing or looking at a watch (something completely legal) because of their personal paranoia.

 

[r3skyline]

I strongly doubt that a hypothetical 10-year-old would respond in a more informed way than his father, but I'll take your word for it. Congratulations, your 10-year-old son is well beyond his years.

Very passive aggressive posts from you. The fact that he wears a watch is suspicious in itself when he is in the spotlight. Ive played against Ross as well, he is known through the pokemon world as being a slow player, all we have is his word.

So putting together this "evidence"

Wears a watch
Caught playing slow on video
Friends come and verify he is a slow player
He comes in the thread himself and states he is a slow player

Now, add all that up, and it is perfectly understandable to accuse him of stalling/slow playing to gain advantage against his opponents.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....454300746696.247399.737191696&type=3&theater

Gonna deploy this and watch everyone from now on. Haha

 

[Raen]

Theres a fine line between thinking an opponent is stalling and just taking a few extra seconds on a play. This should determine how you respond.

When you and I were playing you had a big deceision to make so I gave you a good 30-40 seconds and than said "you have a play man." You were very polite, said sorry and made your play.

You weren't trying to slow play me so I wasn't going to be a ***** and get a judge over to monitor the pace of play.

Had this happened alot sure I probably would have just so you didn't call me on rushing. But a lot of the time people take a few extra seconds and a friendly "you got a play man" is all thats needed. Its really a fine line though.

Good point. I guess I just considered the asking nicely first a given, but should probably have explicitly said so.

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

Very passive aggressive posts from you. The fact that he wears a watch is suspicious in itself when he is in the spotlight. Ive played against Ross as well, he is known through the pokemon world as being a slow player, all we have is his word.

So putting together this "evidence"

Wears a watch
Caught playing slow on video
Friends come and verify he is a slow player
He comes in the thread himself and states he is a slow player

Now, add all that up, and it is perfectly understandable to accuse him of stalling/slow playing to gain advantage against his opponents.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....454300746696.247399.737191696&type=3&theater

Gonna deploy this and watch everyone from now on. Haha

I mean this would almost make sense if it wasn't true that:

1. Many players wear a watch.
2. There are many many reasons to wear a watch that have nothing to do with stalling, slow playing or anything illegal.
3. It is fully possible to be a slow player without intent of gaining an advantage with it. In fact, I see no logical correlation between someone's natural level of thought/pace and intentions. Are very deep thinking people immoral?
4. The slow play I exhibit in this video is inconsistent with a planned strategy to use slow play for an advantage (as in my first 3 turns are slow, the rest are not)
5. There's a whole host of videos of my games where I don't win on time, implying maybe I actually focus on winning games without using time.
6. I've lost more key games because of time than won.
7. I've won a very very small fraction of my games because of time (i.e. I would lose otherwise)
8. I famously played Vileplume decks nearly exclusively which would be completely inconsistent with someone intending to win games on time.

If you don't like 'my word', these are pretty objective facts. Add these up, and it is far from understandable to make your accusations.
It sounds like you have not been happy with my pace of play in the past. I am sorry for that, but that is no reason to attack my character on a public forum.

 

[r3skyline]

1. You wear your watch sideways.

- If it were true that you wear it to keep time, why wear it sideways to have quick glances when you can just turn your wrist? It isnt just a preference, you specified WHY you wear it the way you do.

2. ^
3. Being able to prove/disprove a persons "natural" slow playstyle will be something hard to do.
4. However, this isnt the first time and most likely will not be the last of your slow style
5.
6. Only have your word
7. ^

Yes they are objective, which leaves it all up in the air. All anyone has is someones word and "evidence".

 

[psychup2034]

If it were true that you wear it to keep time, why wear it sideways to have quick glances when you can just turn your wrist? It isnt just a preference, you specified WHY you wear it the way you do.

And what difference does it make whether he looks at his watch when it's turned sideways versus when he turns his wrist to look at his watch? Absolutely nothing.

Your own paranoia about intentions that aren't there is causing you to misunderstand someone's harmless habit.

 

[evil psyduck]

Geez i wear mine on the bottom of my wrist so it doesn't catch on my pocket when i reach into it. Guess i better stop doing that or i'll be accused of cheating.and slow play.

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

I wear it sideways to make it easier to check the time. This does not mean I am going to use that knowledge any more legally/illegally than any player. I'll consider wearing my watch 'normally' just to placate the crazy people out there who want to draw such conclusions. Though I'm sure as soon as I 'more visibly' check the time, everyone will get upset.
(and don't tell me not to check the time. As stated by several, there are many legitimate, important reasons to check the time)

Your other points again draw from an argument of plays slow=tries to stall for win, which doesn't make any sense in the context of the game in the first post (where I'm slow at the beginning) or other games I've played. It also doesn't make sense to accuse every slow player of malicious intent. It's just ignorant to think everyone would play the same pace naturally. My 2nd warning at this regionals came in plus 3, sounds like a slow player and not a staller.

I'm done with this. I hope the majority of people out there recognize this ridiculous discussion for the witch hunt it has been. If wearing a watch and playing slowly at times inconsistent with someone trying to stall were enough to attack the character of someone, well then then I guess half the player base are terrible, immoral people. In fact wearing a watch and playing slowly (thinking) at times inconsistent with trying to stall are two things I would expect of any great player....

 

[psychup2034]

I hope the majority of people out there recognize this ridiculous discussion for the witch hunt it has been.

*watch hunt 171717

 

[shuffledraw]

I have no problem with wearing a watch. It's permitted by the rules, and isn't particularly suspicious in a vacuum. Plenty of people wear watches since it's useful to be aware of what time it is.

Claiming that you wear a watch a certain way because it's easier to see makes sense as well. If you're going to wear a watch, you might as well make it easy to use.

Claiming that you wear a watch to make it easier to see what time it is, but then also saying that you don't actually use it to see what time it is? That's a bit suspicious to me.

 

[Kayle]

*watch hunt 171717

Witch hunt.

Unless you're going to admit that your discussion with Ross has not led you towards any accusation and has only been discussion. That is what it should have been, but that is not what it sounds like.

 

[psychup2034]

Unless you're going to admit that your discussion with Ross has not led you towards any accusation and has only been discussion. That is what it should have been, but that is not what it sounds like.

Of course my discussions in this thread have not led to any accusation of slow play. It is my watching of the videos and reading of the penalty guidelines that informs my opinion that there was slow play. In fact, I later learned that the judges at the event held a similar opinion to mine and even assessed a penalty!

One thing that my discussions in this thread has led me to conclude is that you seem to be unable to objectively comment on this subject because of an apparent misappropriation of blame for past personal issues.

 

[BrightRush]

Alot of people use watches, just look at Top Cut for Nationals/Worlds and in the Grinders.... This thread is so pointless