State of the Format.

[elekid_957]

ouch that sucks... i don't really like this format that much either, it's not that hard to play stuff, but there are way to many donks in this format, last format a game went to 30 mins usually, now it goes about 5..

 

[Prof Clay]

Yeah, I must agree with Joner. I played 16 basics and 4 roseanne this past weekend and I get t2ed by an uxie due to an unown G start with 6 trainers.There is no way a better player could play their way out of that scenario nor is their any way to avoid a donk in this game unless you opt to do something rediculous like play a cyrus when you see a horsea or machop on the opposing side.

David,

Your had an unown G start....awesome card....with risks. Because of machamp you have to play Unown G right? SP decks are incredible right now, but they have athe misfortune of having to play a card that can be a liability to offset the risk against a card that is designed to beat SP decks, thus balancing the format. Play unown G, you reduce your risk of being beaten by Machamp, but increase your chance of a bad start....checks and balances built into the game

Donks are a definite risk in this game right now I agree. My daughter had the unfortunate 1st round loss at regionals due to an Uxie start and an unfortunate Baleful wind from Absol which took out her Bebe and Roseanne....happens. And there is a large element of luck involved these days too.

2 thoughts...we have some incredible cards in the format right now that when played at the right time are amazing...uxie, unown G, azelf...but starting with them can be hazardous to ones game. We all need to adjust our deck building to accommodate for the potential start with these guys or the T1 sableye or machamp. Maybe leave some of these out or dramaticly increasing the count of our other basics.

Will this solve the donk problem?...not completely and maybe not at all depending on luck, but it can reduce your chances of bad starts. Your example is one that shows even with more basics there is still a problem.

Other thought...unfortunately (or fortunately) as you and I discussed at regionals, the format I think is going to go very stale after the new prerelease with 1 to 3 decks left standing in the format...machamp being one of them because SP pokemon are going to be amped up to a higher level.


I think we maybe do need to re-examine game start restrictions again. I believe that all players should have the right to at least start with 2 basics.

The format at regionals in my opinion was TREMENDOUSLY cool...decks of every type doing well. Look around the regions and you will still see most of the power players at the top of the rankings and the wannabes who still can't understand why they can't make top cut in big events once they get out of their local metagame...my opinion, I'll stand by it.

 

[The Captain]

Makes me think it's strange how Mathorn1 already won the thread and people still keep finding it okay that Donks exist for some weird reason.

I have to say that I've been Donk a lot of times and that it says something bad about the game and the players in general. Look at the Organized play area and see how many have won with Macheap.

People that want to win shall play it, skill or no skill since luck isn't a part of Donking. This sucks for the people with skill that want to be able to surpass that T1 but thanks to the Donkfest (Like it is in Holland), the game stops being fun more and more as you get continued to get Donked.

I wonder, should I stay and play a game where Donking keeps being possible, in the hope that they stop making Donk cards (OR BANNING THEM) at some moment in time, or should I have a brain and find something else, more useful way to spend my time instead of playing games that end on T1.

lol he didn't win, if you play 16 baisics, 4 roseannes and get donked, its bad luck, thats part of the game. If you play 10 baisics 4 roseannes then your deck isn't built for what you know to be the meta, and its your problems. Lets face it Machamp makes some deck virtually unplayable, like if kingdra was the meta you would be dumb to play fire its that simple. And honestly if the point of your deck is to donk then the skill you have to put in is before the match in building a good donk deck.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I wouldn't call them noobs, rather just greedy players who don't care for good games.
Regardless, I'm just gonna bring my DS with Platinum and GTA to the next tournament so I can have something to do after super-short games.

when did it become greedy to try to win, through perfectly legal means?

 

[SlimeyGrimey]

I know a lot of you guys think the T1 wins thing is just a bunch of sour grapes. I've won about as many games on turn 1 as I've lost, and the games I've won on turn 1 have been more important to my overall tournament performance than the ones I lost. I lost a game on turn 1 at regionals, but still made the cut at 5-1, so it didn't affect me too adversely. Later, in the finals, I lost a 25 minute game and evened it up in 10 seconds by having an opening hand of Gastly Candy Gengar Crobat Crobat Psychic against my opponent's Crobat. Those two games in the finals don't seem equal at all but they sure count the same.

One game at STP's both my opponent and I started with a lone basic and candy to Rampardos/candy to Kingdra in hand. Whoever 'wins' the opening roll loses the game. I got to go second and made the cut as a result.

I have no sour grapes. If I lose on turn one I don't have any hard feelings or take the loss really hard or something. I recognize that it is part of the game and a possibility in any match you sit down to play, so I don't get too worked up about it. I just recognize that it is a current feature of the game that greatly reduces the skill needed to win games, and I would like to see games decided by skill as much as possible.

 

[Mewtant]

I think it's kind of funny that IF donk cards were to go away, the next thread would be "OMG, G decks are dominating the format. This format sucks. We have to do something about it. It isn't fair! It takes no skill to run a G deck. Just throw SP cards and techs together and even noobs can netdeck! Aggghhhh!!"

LOL

 

[Squidwina]

I know, I know. Still, I don't think I'd want to hang out with such noobs. Since this format seems to be filled with noobs (Loads of people without skill that resort to Donk decks), I am starting to wonder if the game is worth the time I spend in getting cards to create my deck that I want to play @ tournaments.

What a remarkably unkind thing to say!

If the existence of newer players is ruining your experience, then the problem lies with you, not with the noobs. Every game needs fresh blood, and having some new players around is as much a part of the game as luck is.

I was wondering if there is a more useful way to spend my time at tournies without getting Donked. But I guess there isn't. And without a way to make the game more balanced, there is no way there is chance for the few players that have actual brains and skill. Just my 2 cents.

Again, this is unkind and uncalled for. There is no reason to think that newer players aren't as intelligent as experienced players, and skill needs to be developed through experience.

If you are so gifted in "brains and skill," then why can't you come up with a deck that isn't quite so donkable?

Tell me, how could the Obama player prevent this from happening despite his 17 (!) cards of which any combination of 2 would've saved him, knowing that game 2 went his way despite yet another T1 Macheap?

That sounds like some mighty bad luck. But again, luck is part of the game. It's a simple matter of probability. Even if you ran 54 basics, there's still a chance, tiny though it may be, that you'd get donked.

Perhaps you and afstandopleren should stop playing Pokemon and go play checkers with the old men down at the park instead. There's no luck factor in checkers, and there hasn't been a new face around since 1959.

 

[Prof Clay]

A couple of years ago at the Grinder in Hawaii, one player in Masters donked his way into the main event by T1ing all 5 of his opponents with his Mario deck. Love ya Matt :thumb: Though he did make top 16 the previous year at Worlds, so by no means was he a noob.

Donks are nothing new....

That same player did not nearly have the same level of success in the main event against the best of the best.

 

[Scipio]

The whole thing to me is that while games could be decided through luck of the draw/coinflip/any other option, I don't feel like shelling out 20 euro for a train ticket to location X, then pay another 5 euro to get in the actual tournament (Not America here) and then be done in like 10 seconds simply because my opponent has a hand consisting of Machop, Candy, Macheap and an energy. I at least would like a good game you know.

There is luck, which is always a factor, and there is plain dumb donking. That second one hurts the game badly, the first game makes part of the game. But until Stormfront (One could argue Legends Awakened), luck wasn't THIS prominent.

Calling me and afstandopleren out that we should stop playing Pokemon is just as uncalled for as afstandopleren calling Macheap players noobs. I like how you love your double standards Squidwina.

 

[GrandmaJoner]

Man there have been so many ignorant comments here that I can't just let them pass:

quoting "Trapper:"

"Kingdra and Sableye are easy to work around. Sableye just calls for a reduction of the number of <50hp basics in your deck. Kingdra isn't even really a threat in general as far as I see since it actually takes work to set up. So that leaves Machamp as the sole offender."

LOL! First of all, everyone plays Baltoy...and Sableye is not even the major source of the problem here at all. The point is that machamp can OHKO ANYTHING.

"Kingdra isnt even a threat as it actually takes work to setup. Machamp is the sole offender."

LOL!!!! Machamp and Kingdra take the exact same to set up! ONE ENERGY STAGE 2!! Just the fact that you even said this makes all your other comments void!!

The ONLY difference between Kingdra and Machamp is that Kingdra can't necessarily OHKO an SP Pokemon or possibly even an uxie...but most kingdra uses pluspower or crobat and others.

I lost games 1 and 3 to Kingdra in my regional...both games my opponent went 2nd and both games I had a basic (60 HP in one of them for your information)...BOTH on the first turn.


Scipio accentuates our point here perfectly. WHAT CAN YOU DO!? 13 basics, 4 call energy?!? Give me a break if you say thats not enough stuff in your deck to try and avoid t1 loss!


Quoting Prof Clay:

"Your had an unown G start....awesome card....with risks. Because of machamp you have to play Unown G right? SP decks are incredible right now, but they have athe misfortune of having to play a card that can be a liability to offset the risk against a card that is designed to beat SP decks, thus balancing the format. Play unown G, you reduce your risk of being beaten by Machamp, but increase your chance of a bad start....checks and balances built into the game."

lol!!!

So you are suggesting don't play unown G and let your whole deck get OHKOd by one energy! AKA lose to any deck that has machamp! Either that or ytou are suggesting not to play G decks...which the format especailly after next set is entirely geared towards. Not much risk with unown G besides starting with it lol! That's like saying "dont play Claydol, your BALTOY MIGHT GET FTKOD!!!!!"

Still quoting Prof Clay

"2 thoughts...we have some incredible cards in the format right now that when played at the right time are amazing...uxie, unown G, azelf...but starting with them can be hazardous to ones game. We all need to adjust our deck building to accommodate for the potential start with these guys or the T1 sableye or machamp. Maybe leave some of these out or dramaticly increasing the count of our other basics."

Dude...the main point being made here is in regards to Machamp...last time I checked it doesnt matter which basic you start with, he can OHKO it lol.

And you make reference to Uxie and Azelf...both 70 HP basics...and then you make reference to sableye...neither of those pokemon can be OHKOd by Sableye yet you are telling people to reconsider putting them in decks...reconsidering putting Uxie and Azelf in decks does not make any sense. Think about it lol. They can't get OHKOD by kingdra (except with Pluspower or Crobat) or Sableye. They can only get FTKOd by Machamp...they are some of the higher HP basics in the game...Machamp can FTKO any basic lol


Quoting Mewtant

"I think it's kind of funny that IF donk cards were to go away, the next thread would be "OMG, G decks are dominating the format. This format sucks. We have to do something about it. It isn't fair! It takes no skill to run a G deck. Just throw SP cards and techs together and even noobs can netdeck! Aggghhhh!!"

LOL"

Um, buddy. If you've been reading this thread at all...it hasnt primarily been about taking away donk cards...It's been talking about potentially letting the player who goes first use a supporter or preventing the player who goes 2nd from using any trainers or stadiums...both tremendously reducing the chance of t1 FTKOs. After t1, all game is fair.



Especially quoting "Squidwina," "If you are so gifted in brains and skill, why can't you build a deck that is less donkable?"

Please, give me a break. I think you know something is wrong with the game when people are building decks to not get FTKOd as opposed to building decks that do well and win games that last more than a turn.
And no matter how much anti donk (generally anti-GOOD) crap you put in...there is still a fairly decent chance of losing on the first turn if you go second!!!

And yes...good players do donk people too...but what this t1 stuff does is drastically even out the playing field!

 

[mine is cooler]

No need to get hostile. Only when hard, mixed emotions clash I guess to expect nothing less.

One thing I MUST say is this.
Don't generalize sp decks as donk decks, makers have no skill, and they are lucky.
I play a sp deck, I never had the intention to make it a donk deck. Although, getting a god hand once in a great while is nice, but few and far between. I've spent hours play testing and making it fit to my play-style. It's unfair to call all people with sp decks noobs and skilless players. Yes the set supported and helped to make these decks playable. Just how preimier ball, level max, and others helped to get lv.x's out. It's a given that cards had to be made for this set.

Just lay off on the crude remarks towards people that DID acually build their decks. I do have skill, sportsmanship, and SotG. (not to sound conceded).

I do not play dialga/palkia g. I play a heavy weavile line that is supported by what I run with it.

Just don't generalize please.

 

[Prof Clay]

Joner,

You read more into my post than I put in...I guess your computer did not put it all on your monitor for you. Read the entire post as a whole and see the meaning...don't just take bits and pieces.

What I was implying (probably badly) was that there are risks involved with certain cards that are necessary to do well. I think the post by trapper above mine probably said it better. Without Unown G, yes you are dead to Machamp..we are all cognizant of that (look the word up if you need to). I also stated later in the post that regardless of how many basics you run, you will still have the risk of getting donked...in this format, and previous years as well...

There is the flip side to Machamp...if there was no Machamp, the SP decks would simply dominate the format allowing no room for other decks as we pretty much saw at States.

 

[ashinto]

Seriously? This is one of the most diverse formats since DX-On. But you say that this format is worse than the reign of Blaziken ex and cruel tyranny of GG/Plox?

This is the format in which the Japanese play, which is supposed to be superior to the modified formats that PUI comes up with. This format is no good either? Should we rotate even if the Japanese stay with DP-On?

Does anyone still use cards from the DP, MT, SW sets, or are those more or less outdated now?

I'd say that this format has so many ways to search and draw is where the problem is. The one-per-turn Supporter rule just isn't restrictive enough anymore since so many powers allow draw and search.

i agree. o ya, dusknior DP is still a good tech to use, and people use torterra lvl.x in the torrterrific decks. so there are some cards from those sets used still (though not as much.)

 

[GrandmaJoner]

Prof Clay,

No need to pull out the thesaurus here to question other people's intelligence, when a simple "aware" would have been just fine. I think it actually has the opposite effect than the one you desired


We realize that if there was no Machamp, SP decks would be stronger (completely disagree with "simply dominate")...what we are suggesting is allowing people a greater chance of surviving the first turn of the game. I'm pretty sure Machamp would still be rampant even if you couldn't play Rare Candy on your first turn. Or, like you said, having 2 or more basics at the beginning of the game regardless.

Going over your post again it seems that your main point is not the chance of getting T1d, but the potential of bad/slow starts with Unown G and Uxie and Azelf and Pokemon like that.

..Unfortunately, this is not really the topic of discussion here.

You are missing the point if you are referring to the fact that Azelf or Uxie or unown G are bad starters because they arent our ideal attackers...I don't think many people are complaining about that risk, we accept that, playing those cards. If anything, running cards like unown G and Uxie and Azelf help us avoid T1 donks...which is the main point of all this discussion; bad starts are not really a concern as they will happen occasionally regardless.

What we do not accept is the high possibility of losing t1 (to ANY deck) regardless which basic we start with.

What we do not accept is the incredible impact the roll at the beginning of the game has on the outcome of the match.

 

[Prof Clay]

Prof Clay,

No need to pull out the thesaurus here to question other people's intelligence, when a simple "aware" would have been just fine. I think it actually has the opposite effect than the one you desired


We realize that if there was no Machamp, SP decks would be stronger (completely disagree with "simply dominate")...what we are suggesting is allowing people a greater chance of surviving the first turn of the game. I'm pretty sure Machamp would still be rampant even if you couldn't play Rare Candy on your first turn. Or, like you said, having 2 or more basics at the beginning of the game regardless.

Going over your post again it seems that your main point is not the chance of getting T1d, but the potential of bad/slow starts with Unown G and Uxie and Azelf and Pokemon like that.

..Unfortunately, this is not really the topic of discussion here.

You are missing the point if you are referring to the fact that Azelf or Uxie or unown G are bad starters because they arent our ideal attackers...I don't think many people are complaining about that risk, we accept that, playing those cards. If anything, running cards like unown G and Uxie and Azelf help us avoid T1 donks...which is the main point of all this discussion; bad starts are not really a concern as they will happen occasionally regardless.

What we do not accept is the high possibility of losing t1 (to ANY deck) regardless which basic we start with.

What we do not accept is the incredible impact the roll at the beginning of the game has on the outcome of the match.

Agreed... I do believe that game starts need to be re-examined for many reasons, not just donks.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

What we do not accept is the high possibility of losing t1 (to ANY deck) regardless which basic we start with.

What we do not accept is the incredible impact the roll at the beginning of the game has on the outcome of the match.

We is pretty broad. I'm not sure that you speak for me for instance.

For the record I think that Prof. Clay is 100% on the money here, and all of his comments have been very much to the topic at hand ... the state of the format.

In general the top tables have the same faces time and time again. The donk starts are having an impact, but obviously aren't totally upsetting the number skill based wins. Changing start conditions might be a good thing, but who knows? It could lead to other problems as well depending on how it's done.

 

[Magnechu]

Vanderbilt_grad- You wouldn't want less T1 wins in the format? I'm not sure I can see your reasoning. Care to explain why there should be the amount of T1 wins (I would say at least 25% of games are decided on T1 in the current format)?

 

[afstandopleren]

When I’ve been talking Pokemon with folks, the issue of donks has come up in conversation a number of times recently. It also appears here on the Gym in a number of threads. It’s rather obvious that a lot of people simply don’t like the donk cards with various reasons why.

Yet these cards keep appearing in set after set. Kingdra, Machamp, and now Rampardos in Platinum.

Last night it made me realize that the card designers must be creating these monsters for a reason. From a game design perspective they must see something good about having donk cards around.

So I tried to reverse engineer this thing and asked myself, “What is good about having donk cards?”

1. Donks are exciting, especially to the younger players. I’ve watched my kids in lots of games. They love getting a donk win. “Dad, I knocked him out on the first turn!!!!” Heck they love donking me more than anyone else. Having big impressive donkers is actually a draw to the game for some kids, and let us not forget who the game has to attract if it is it keep growing.

2. Donks are fast. This actually has good consequences in casual play. Last night for example I was playing a game on RedShark, had a dead opening, and got donked. My opponent and I just shrugged it off and played another game. But this means that we played two games instead of one ... we were actually playing more because of the donk. My observation is that the same thing happens all the time in casual play. After a donk opponents will tend to play again leading to more actual games being played.

In some of the Japanese events fast play can be a good thing as well. Tego reported about Japanese “Challenge Arena” style events where fast play would seem to help things move along.

3. Donks bring more luck into the game. This is actually one of the things many skilled players seem to hate, but I have to wonder if it is good for the game overall. If Pokemon were like chess we would see the same faces winning again and again. To an extent we still do, but luck ensures that new faces always have some sort of a chance in a match. And NOTHING inspires someone to practice more and become more skilled than winning. Thinking that you have a realistic chance of winning is very motivating and ensures that more new people will actually play the game.

4. Donk cards affect how decks are built. Since I’ve started playing the trend seems to be that trainers are becoming a bit less powerful and Pokemon are taking over a lot of what the more powerful trainers used to do. Laprass takes over for Castaway for instance. The trend seems to be to make the game focus more on the Pokemon than the trainers (after who would play “trainermon”). Donk cards do this a bit as well. They encourage people to build decks with more basic Pokemon emphasizing that part of the game.

5. Donk cards actually help balance the competitive format. I honestly don’t think that the new SP Pokemon would be balanced at all if we didn’t have something like Machamp in format. These cards are shaping up to be our new delta type cards with their own specialized trainer lines and more. Back in the delta days MOST good decks were build around the delta cards and it was hard to play non-delta decks. We pretty much have to have cards like Machamp and Rampardos to pose a threat to these SP cards in order to help keep other non-SP Pokemon a viable choice in competitive play.

I don’t know how much of this was actually taken into account by the lab guys when they were cooking up, say, Machamp, but I do think that they must have at least some of these in mind.

Donking does have downsides.

It’s frustrating to donk or to be donked at a premier event where you only get to play an opponent once. I would much rather play a 20 minute game than a 2 minute one especially after all the trouble my opponent and I have gone through to create decks and drive to an event to play them. Unlike casual play you don’t get a second game in our system.

I also think that donks really do skew the ranking system we use internationally. The more luck you put into the game the less meaningful “expected” wins and losses become and the less accurate rankings are as a measure of who is consistently good.

But maybe ... just maybe the issue isn’t the donk cards but the system we play. For instance if we did best 2 out of 3 in Swiss as they do in parts of Europe then donking would still have an impact, but it would be lessened. It's only an example, but it's one that I think shows that the problem may not be just the donk cards themselves, which always seems to be the first thought that leaps to mind.

Food for thought.

That is why he thinks Donks are good for the game. I still don't think that I can agree.

 

[Yoshi-]

I dont care that much for donks since they never happen to me D) but I hate mesprit with a passion.
Seriously, Pokemon isnt fighting anymore, tis locking your opponent to prevent a game from happening.
When I get an opening hand I dont check for T2 Claydol but for "how do i do without powers till turn 5".

And I played against a Gigas with 4 Scoop up/4 Tsd / 4 Mesprit
Have you ever been locked for 3 long topcut games ? I nearly pulled it off, but decks like this make you stop palying pokemon, its just so boring and dumb and not fun. Args...

 

[GrandmaJoner]

omg I just saw that vanderbilt grad post for the first time..... ROFL!!!!

 

[afstandopleren]

It's from an other thread he made a wile ago. It's not from within this thread.