State of the Format.

[FireFighter095ReBorn]

This format seems to be a fight the sp and g decks. Its gonna be a nats of every deck under the *bleeping* sun. I cant see this nats be anything more but the sp universe against the world. Its gonna be interesting none the less but in the end worlds will run to either a sp deck universe or a new deck that will stand over the fire of broken g decks and make the run that will break through to the next format change.

 

[Squidwina]

Calling me and afstandopleren out that we should stop playing Pokemon is just as uncalled for as afstandopleren calling Macheap players noobs. I like how you love your double standards Squidwina.

You didn't think that I was really suggesting that you quit playing Pokemon and go play checkers with the old men down by the river, did you? :lol: Perhaps you should look up "facetious" in that thesaurus that GrandmaJoner mentioned. (And just for the record, my suggestion that you look up "facetious" is entirely facetious.)

Look, it's perfectly reasonable to say that this format is too luck-based or allows too many donks or allows inexperienced players to do better than they probably should. It's not reasonable to dump on people who happened to luck into a format that is good for them.

Man there have been so many ignorant comments here that I can't just let them pass:....Especially quoting "Squidwina," "If you are so gifted in brains and skill, why can't you build a deck that is less donkable?"

Please, give me a break. I think you know something is wrong with the game when people are building decks to not get FTKOd as opposed to building decks that do well and win games that last more than a turn.
And no matter how much anti donk (generally anti-GOOD) crap you put in...there is still a fairly decent chance of losing on the first turn if you go second!!!

And yes...good players do donk people too...but what this t1 stuff does is drastically even out the playing field!

I think you should go back and re-read my post. But I'll save you the time--my comment was obviously directed solely at afstandopleren. In this thread, he has repeatedly complained about how he has been beaten over and over by people who he considers less intelligent and less skilled than he is. Surely you see the inherent contradiction in those statements. If not, I'll clarify--if he's regularly losing to dumb noobs, maybe he's not as smart or skilled as he thinks he is.

You shouldn't have taken my comment personally because your argument is quite different. You're saying that there's a problem with the format and the current rules, not with the "inferior" people who keep beating you.

 

[spoinkmaster]

TL;DR, the format's fine.

Honestly in a game where nothing has been banned bar Sneasel/Slowking, you have to deal with whatever the format is or quit.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Vanderbilt_grad- You wouldn't want less T1 wins in the format? I'm not sure I can see your reasoning. Care to explain why there should be the amount of T1 wins (I would say at least 25% of games are decided on T1 in the current format)?

I never said that I wanted more or less, simply that I'm able to live with the current state of affairs even if I don't think it's perfect. That's more or less why I didn't feel like being lumped into GrandmaJoner's "we..." statement.

That is why he thinks Donks are good for the game. I still don't think that I can agree.

If you read what I wrote carefully I never said that I thought donks were good myself. What I said what that the game designers must see a purpose in donks and I speculated, trying to figure out what they might be thinking. I pointed out possible upsides and definite downsides. My only conclusion was that maybe the issues weren’t with the donks themselves but with the way we play the game. That could be the US Swiss single game format ... or it could be our current starting rules ... heck it could even be our rule for allowing one person to pick if they go first or second in top cut ... or any number of other things.

At this point I do feel that donks are probably good for the game as a whole but bad for many individuals. I do worry that donks are getting a bit too easy, but IDK. We will have to see what the rotation brings. Ambivalent would probably best describe my feelings at this point.

 

[Austino]

I think there are too many whiners.

Keep in mind this is a childrens game that happens to be competitive. Kids need ways to win besides sitting there for 40 minutes hoping not to misplay. They don't design these cards for the adults who play, but the kids who like having fun.

It doesn't matter what it is, anything that is competitive and allows more "mature" audiences will be taken too seriously by some, and will result in questioning the game's integrity.

I don't mind losing to a donk or T1 deck when it happens because in the end, winning that tourney won't get me into a club, earn me a discount at WalMart, or make me a superhero. It's a hobby that I've put a bit of money into and enjoy playing. When people get bent out of shape because they lost turn 1 or 2, then what does that accomplish besides making themself look like a horse's rear end.

Donks are fun when you get them and suck when you lose to them, but just because they happen doesn't mean the format sucks. By far, this is the most diverse format I've heard of and enjoy seeing several different decks. To be honest, Machamp suffers late game while it thrives early. Every deck has it's flaws and just because some are amazing in the first 3 turns doesn't make them "bad for the game."

 

[bullados]

I think we'll see a Nationals or Worlds Champion deck that plays no doubles of any single Pokemon other than Uxie. It'll be interesting to see which TecHs make it into that deck

 

[elekid_957]

^lemme see.. dusknoir, gengar, machamp, dialga G+dialga G X+palkia G+palkia G X( get rid of useless techs), 3-1 uxie X, 1-1 galade 4, 1-1 infernape 4, 1 raichu GL, 1 lucario GL, and a bunch of random stuff. FT......?
i honestly don't like this format. i'd rather play a long game and lose than get donked and lose. it wasn't much fun to be power locked last year, which is why they invented the supporter engine.

 

[Articjedi]

I think there are too many whiners.

Keep in mind this is a childrens game that happens to be competitive. Kids need ways to win besides sitting there for 40 minutes hoping not to misplay. They don't design these cards for the adults who play, but the kids who like having fun.

Maybe that should change, because the largest divisions year after year are the masters Nintendo aren't supposed to be selling well to.

 

[jrwaxman]

Format is fine right now but I could see a push for no player being allowed to play trainers first turn....just Supporters. I think that could help. I played Kingdra all through Cities and got my fair share of T1s. Seemed like every time I played John S I had the Rare Candy and after the flip we just signed the slip....LOL. Sorry John.

There are several decks that have the Donk Factor as discussed all through out this thread but one thing that I have not seen mentioned is what about the decks that live or die by winning within the first two to three turns? Grafton got beat at Regionals by a Shuppet Deck. All three games took about two turns and the whole match was over in about five minutes. He went 6-1 in swiss only losing to mirror in the final round in a great game that went to the last turn and then is out of the tournament in five minutes. He gets by that match and he probably rolls through the rounds. Playing a deck like this is almost like flipping a coin to see who wins. If they have the tools to Donk they win if they don't then they lose. Talk about something you don't want to get matched against!! At least most of the other decks have some stategy once you get into a real game.

 

[sdrawkcab]

Take a step back, hold on a minute. I know my post here might be a page or two behind on this thread, I'd just like to make a point to those going around flamming anyone who decided to play a donk deck.

"Anyone who plays machamp is obviously a noob because by reliying on a donk deck to win they ovbiously have no skill." -alot of people....

This is ridiculous. Players have put effort into building a deck that has proven to win. Sure being able to win with a deck first turn isn't hard, but perhaps building a deck that has the oppertunity to win first turn (and win aside from first turn) might be harder then you think. The deckbuilding acpect of it is more challenging.

06-07 season, I played infernap at nats. At the time it was considered to be a donk deck as it could win a game on the first couple of turns often enough. During swiss rounds I had won 2-3 games because of their bad starts. I had replayed each of those matches afterwards and beat them each a second time. Just because a deck can win first turn, doesn't mean anyone can play it any win consistently.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game." -stomac (hotpocket commercial)

Don't blame the players who play a deck that wins. They were trying to win, and succeeded. Good for them.


Don't get me wrong, losing t1 sucks, and I believe there should be something done about it. However don't point the finger at players who use a flaw to their advantage. If someone handed you a betting system that was proven to be profitable at roulette, wouldn't you use it?

 

[GrandmaJoner]

Yeah pointing the fingers at players for playing these decks is completely incorrect. It's the first turn of the format that needs help, you can't blame people at all for taking advantage of it lol

 

[Scipio]

I just can't see the fun in games like "Hi, I'm X." "Hi, I'm Y." "Cool, lets flip a coin. I call heads." "Alright...heads it is. You gotta start." "Alright, heres my Pokemon Z. I attach and pass, for I have no Call Energy, Unown G or other backup." "Sorry, but I have Machop, Rare Candy, Machamp and Energy".

Is that enjoyable? I won a few times by turn one or two due to my opponents bad starts (never by playing a donk deck btw, this happened playing GG, Kingdra Ex and Salamence Ex) and always I felt pretty bad. I play this game for the longer games, that take time to play through. If I or my opponent wins T1, I dont think I played a real game. How can anyone claim that winning games T1 is actually FUN?

That is why I have such a hatred for T1 decks. When you can play long strategic games that come down to the wire, getting T1's isn't fun at all.

 

[trapper]

At some point you have to acccept that not everyone comes to a premier event to have 5-8 "fun" games. Many come to collect prizes. They come with intentions to win by any means necessary (within reason). In a meta swamped in SP decks that player may see Machamp as the means to counter the meta.

If a skilled deck builder picks up Machamp and maximizes the decks ability to pull the T1 donk, does that make him a bad person/player?

If you get paired up against a deck that has type advantage and a hand full of buck's and plus powers is the opponent a bad player/person?

At the same time, we have to accept luck. Sometimes even if you maximize your deck's ability to avoid the lone basic starts, it happens that you have one. We can't blame the format for random luck. Sure it seems like intelligent design when we have a lone basic start and are matched up against a "donk deck", but once again you have to blame luck for everything.

The format is something that as the players we have to remember that we design. If we know what we can expect to see across the table, why would we bring a deck ill-equiped to deal with it?

If our militaries know that the rest of the world have guns, would they still bring slings to the battlefield? They would not. They'd bring guns as well or more likely jets, tanks, and explosives.

In the events that I've played in and been to, I've seen VERY little Kingdra played due to players near me playing a lot of SP decks. Kingdra has problems donking SP in general due to the sheer size of the SP decks. Everything is SP, Machamp, and Teched-out Rogue(which in this area Kingdra tends to fall into). We never know what's going to win a premier event until it is over.

At this point I am well into tl:dr territory so I'll end with this to sum up the post.

Pokemon TCG is a GAME rooted in LUCK. There is more than usual in this format. You know the solutions to dealing with it.

Bashing players that choose the joy of winning over the fun of the game is not something that should be done.

And on a personal note, stop catching feelings just because someone disagrees with your opinion on an children's card game played by adults. :lol:

 

[icemelter1001]

^The old play the game for fun instead to win argument?
That's a whole different situation.

I'm 100% certain some of the top players in the game have been playing this game so long because they have won many events or had many top placings. Why do most players quit? They don't win, thus, they don't have fun.

It goes hand in hand. You have fun when you win, and don't when you lose.

Lets say you go to regionals and go 2-5, 2-6, however many rounds you had. Would you have fun?
To me, that isn't anywhere near close to being fun.

 

[nnaann]

What I think is being missed here, is that donk decks aren't BDIF because of the ability to T1.

Of course I agree that T1 donks are extremely annoying, I don't go to a tournament is lose a game after my first turn and lose my chance at Top Cut. However Decks like Machamp, Kingdra and Rampardos aren't insanely broken because of this. If they were ruining the game by being so good, wouldn't everyone play them?

Although they can T1, people may have more success with other decks.

Machamp aside because of G being popular, Kingdra and Rampardos are easily countered.

T1 Donks are broken. However so is all the TGI's and Cyrus's, Palkia G's ability to not have to worry about bench space, Gengar's Fainting Spell etc

 

[Ra2xse]

^The old play the game for fun instead to win argument?
That's a whole different situation.

I'm 100% certain some of the top players in the game have been playing this game so long because they have won many events or had many top placings. Why do most players quit? They don't win, thus, they don't have fun.

It goes hand in hand. You have fun when you win, and don't when you lose.

Lets say you go to regionals and go 2-5, 2-6, however many rounds you had. Would you have fun?
To me, that isn't anywhere near close to being fun.

2-5 should be fun for a casual player, and for a competive player a place to invent an whole new deck... This game shouldn't be taken too seriosly, it'samde for having FUN, i find my self too many times in situtations when i making wrong and breaking the spirit of the game.... Like the Dusknoir thing on worlds 2008 and when i said to my opponent that he can't use his Uxie when he had searched it with roseanne because he was played an energy to an other pokemon after bencing that Uxie.... I have donked only 1 time in tournament and i have never been donket, T2 some times but not donked. The reason have been that Macahmp haven't been playe much in my area and i have used decks that are hard to get donked....

When i fail in a tournament i always empty some of my sleeves and put in a deck that i've never playde before... Pkmn shoul be fun even if you don't win... (This ain't losers talk, i'm an average player 2 for 1 win and lose record for this season)

 

[GengarPwns]

I was going 4-1 in Regs... And some random Champ player T1ns me so i miss top cut.

 

[baby mario]

If the 'random' Machamp player (who was 4-1 as well, probably) had an Uxie start and you donked it with a T2 Shadow Room/Bat drop, making HIM miss top cut . . . would that have been any better?

 

[eriknance]

I think there are too many whiners.

Keep in mind this is a childrens game that happens to be competitive. Kids need ways to win besides sitting there for 40 minutes hoping not to misplay. They don't design these cards for the adults who play, but the kids who like having fun.

It doesn't matter what it is, anything that is competitive and allows more "mature" audiences will be taken too seriously by some, and will result in questioning the game's integrity.

I don't mind losing to a donk or T1 deck when it happens because in the end, winning that tourney won't get me into a club, earn me a discount at WalMart, or make me a superhero. It's a hobby that I've put a bit of money into and enjoy playing. When people get bent out of shape because they lost turn 1 or 2, then what does that accomplish besides making themself look like a horse's rear end.

Donks are fun when you get them and suck when you lose to them, but just because they happen doesn't mean the format sucks. By far, this is the most diverse format I've heard of and enjoy seeing several different decks. To be honest, Machamp suffers late game while it thrives early. Every deck has it's flaws and just because some are amazing in the first 3 turns doesn't make them "bad for the game."

I believe the card creators gear this game for both kids and adults. To assume this game is only for kid's is, in my opinion, wrong. After all, there is a Masters division, right? And last time I looked, there are both super complex combos and revoltingly simple ones as well. Simply put, this game is extremely accessible to adults and kids alike.

Winning a tournament may not get you a discount at Wal-Mart, but it can get you a 1500 dollar scholarship. Which is better? I agree that getting bent out of shape over a T1 loss can be unnecessary, but when it can mean the difference between some packs and a big scholarship, I can understand the frustration. And besides, there are people who think that expressing their views on this forum may actually change something down the road.

Donks to me are never fun. Not even in a big tournament when I get them. I think that tournament donks, for most people, leads to a sigh of relief ("phew, I'm glad I donked him, don't know if I would have won otherwise... Now I'm that much closer to winning the tournament"). Donks in practice are just a nuisance, but when money or prizes are on the line, they're a completely different thing.

I agree that this format is pretty diverse. I think it will open up even more after RR. Anything's better than the GG stranglehold of last season.

 

[Muk Man]

This format is Diverse Very Diverse Because Honestly Every Deck Has A Chance to win....if they make it past turn 3



As long as i've played the Game... honestly
I've seem more T2 -T3 wins than ever before... i mean they extended the Time limit so that decks would have a chance... then they creat a format where most games are over in less than 5 minutes...

Like it used to be a VERY VERY Rare thing to have a T1 T2 win... now it's so common that it's not exciting anymore...

The Game is fine... it's the Cards that need some re-tooling