State of the Format.

[mine is cooler]

At some point you have to acccept that not everyone comes to a premier event to have 5-8 "fun" games. Many come to collect prizes. They come with intentions to win by any means necessary (within reason). In a meta swamped in SP decks that player may see Machamp as the means to counter the meta.

If a skilled deck builder picks up Machamp and maximizes the decks ability to pull the T1 donk, does that make him a bad person/player?

If you get paired up against a deck that has type advantage and a hand full of buck's and plus powers is the opponent a bad player/person?

At the same time, we have to accept luck. Sometimes even if you maximize your deck's ability to avoid the lone basic starts, it happens that you have one. We can't blame the format for random luck. Sure it seems like intelligent design when we have a lone basic start and are matched up against a "donk deck", but once again you have to blame luck for everything.

The format is something that as the players we have to remember that we design. If we know what we can expect to see across the table, why would we bring a deck ill-equiped to deal with it?

If our militaries know that the rest of the world have guns, would they still bring slings to the battlefield? They would not. They'd bring guns as well or more likely jets, tanks, and explosives.

In the events that I've played in and been to, I've seen VERY little Kingdra played due to players near me playing a lot of SP decks. Kingdra has problems donking SP in general due to the sheer size of the SP decks. Everything is SP, Machamp, and Teched-out Rogue(which in this area Kingdra tends to fall into). We never know what's going to win a premier event until it is over.

At this point I am well into tl:dr territory so I'll end with this to sum up the post.

Pokemon TCG is a GAME rooted in LUCK. There is more than usual in this format. You know the solutions to dealing with it.

Bashing players that choose the joy of winning over the fun of the game is not something that should be done.

And on a personal note, stop catching feelings just because someone disagrees with your opinion on an children's card game played by adults. :lol:

Great and well thought out statement. Pretty much sums EVERYTHING up.
Good job

 

[WinkWinkNudgeNudge]

How about determining who goes first with RPS? Winner chooses. Slightly more skill involved than a coin flip. More control of you destiny. Very very small impact on the game mechanics.

 

[The Captain]

Scipio accentuates our point here perfectly. WHAT CAN YOU DO!? 13 basics, 4 call energy?!? Give me a break if you say thats not enough stuff in your deck to try and avoid t1 loss!


Quoting Prof Clay:

"Your had an unown G start....awesome card....with risks. Because of machamp you have to play Unown G right? SP decks are incredible right now, but they have athe misfortune of having to play a card that can be a liability to offset the risk against a card that is designed to beat SP decks, thus balancing the format. Play unown G, you reduce your risk of being beaten by Machamp, but increase your chance of a bad start....checks and balances built into the game."

lol!!!

So you are suggesting don't play unown G and let your whole deck get OHKOd by one energy! AKA lose to any deck that has machamp! Either that or ytou are suggesting not to play G decks...which the format especailly after next set is entirely geared towards. Not much risk with unown G besides starting with it lol! That's like saying "dont play Claydol, your BALTOY MIGHT GET FTKOD!!!!!"


Especially quoting "Squidwina," "If you are so gifted in brains and skill, why can't you build a deck that is less donkable?"

Please, give me a break. I think you know something is wrong with the game when people are building decks to not get FTKOd as opposed to building decks that do well and win games that last more than a turn.
And no matter how much anti donk (generally anti-GOOD) crap you put in...there is still a fairly decent chance of losing on the first turn if you go second!!!

First point if you are running 13 baisics and four call, then yes ill say for this meta you are not running enough, run pachi, run weavile those baisics are more or less undonkable.

Second, if you play g's you need to play toxicroak its that simple.

Basiccally you should think of donking as a mechanic like weekness. You don't play a deck that has weekness to the general meta. Its easy to build a deck that doesn't get donked often, just because you don't or didn't at the time of regionals is not anyones problem but yourself. Honestly, you're comments were the most noobish thing i've heard. What makes a deck good or playable? The metagame defines playability, now the meta is donk if you play a donkable deck(and no more bs about not being able to counter the donk) then you deserve to loose. Just like playing magmortar when kingdra was bdif.


As the syaing goes "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen"

 

[Scipio]

If you have 17 cards in your deck of which any combination of 2 would save you from the donk, then is it that unreasonable to think you done enough against donking?

Look, I'll say it again, its not luck that I have a problem with in this format. Its around, I know that, and a dose of luck makes this game more exciting. But there is no excitement in 30-second-games. At all.

 

[mine is cooler]

If you have 17 cards in your deck of which any combination of 2 would save you from the donk, then is it that unreasonable to think you done enough against donking?

Look, I'll say it again, its not luck that I have a problem with in this format. Its around, I know that, and a dose of luck makes this game more exciting. But there is no excitement in 30-second-games. At all.

Unless your the one winning...

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

If you have 17 cards in your deck of which any combination of 2 would save you from the donk, then is it that unreasonable to think you done enough against donking?

In this format, yes that might not be enough. You should be pretty safe with 13+4, but you would face even lower odds of a donk if you do as the captain said.

 

[trapper]

If you have 17 cards in your deck of which any combination of 2 would save you from the donk, then is it that unreasonable to think you done enough against donking?

Look, I'll say it again, its not luck that I have a problem with in this format. Its around, I know that, and a dose of luck makes this game more exciting. But there is no excitement in 30-second-games. At all.

Maybe you should clarify exactly what the issue is then. If not the luck that causes the donk, what is it?

The length of games is a combintion of factors. The speed of the decks in the format, the high damage to cost ratio of some cards, and luck. 2 of those we have just have to try to wait it out and cross our fingers, while the other we just have to play the odds.

With so many "draw X cards" effects in the format things will have a tendency to get speedy. Combine that with numerous direct search effects, and you get turns that consist of draw, search, draw, search, search, and win. Every card game goes through this eventually due to power creep. Some try and balance it with rotations and bannings while others just keep upping the power of new cards to "balance" their formats.

As a player of this game since the beginning, I've witnessed this near the end of every format. We get used to a search/draw engine and when the next "base" set and its first expansion or 2 join the format things get broken because it brings its own engine which people add to their existing engine and folks get angry and decide that the format needs revamping. As soon as the rotation hits they scream that the format is too slow and they want their old engine back.

If you look close DP-SF has brought 2 types of engines to the table to which PL has added. While DP-SF based it's speed/draw engine on Poke Powers (Claydol, Uxie, Azelf being the mst commonly used) on one hand it also has a supporter and trainer-based direct search engine (Great Ball, Poke Radar, Roseanne, Bebe, Luxury Ball). PL has added its SP/Galactic engine and made for decks that can reach their goals on a consistant basis in 2 turns.

If you look at the deck help forum, what are the most suggested/used cards? That creates a VERY consistant deck and late in the format where power creep is the most apparent, consistancy wins games. Take a look at DP Budew vs SF Budew. They both made noise before release as being good cards and see little to no play today but which would see play in a deck that called for Budew? I'd pick SF everytime just for the sheer chance that its body would mean something. Just one example of power creep. Sub Budew for Machamp in that example and the theory stands.

Once the format changes things won't be as broken because things will slow down or at least be less consistant and the donks will be less potent. My point through this entire discussion has more or less been "Don't fret because things will change... soon." You can either deal with it or fall back in the meantime. Either way its only a matter of time before its all over.

 

[eriknance]

Unless your the one winning...

I don't understand why people think donking another person is fun. Useful? Yes, especially if you would have faced an autoloss. But to me, donking another person is one of the most annoying aspects to this game. I've only had a handful of donks against others, and I certainly didn't jump up and down and say, "Soooooo fun let's do it again!" Instead, I said a humble "sorry about that" and asked for another game.

 

[DarthPika]

I don't understand why people think donking another person is fun. Useful? Yes, especially if you would have faced an autoloss. But to me, donking another person is one of the most annoying aspects to this game. I've only had a handful of donks against others, and I certainly didn't jump up and down and say, "Soooooo fun let's do it again!" Instead, I said a humble "sorry about that" and asked for another game.

Very often (unless I know donking was my only chance at winning) I feel really cheated out of a good battle when I donk someone. This year at regs, after waiting an extra 4 something hours for it to start, I donked my first round opponent on my very first turn with an Uxie. After all that time waiting, I was really hoping to have a good long game. Instead I win in 10 or so seconds. I was happy that I got the win, but really it wasn't much fun.

 

[trapper]

I don't understand why people think donking another person is fun. Useful? Yes, especially if you would have faced an autoloss. But to me, donking another person is one of the most annoying aspects to this game. I've only had a handful of donks against others, and I certainly didn't jump up and down and say, "Soooooo fun let's do it again!" Instead, I said a humble "sorry about that" and asked for another game.

While I can commend you and in fact verify that you would and have, not all players are cut from the cloth that makes you a class act. Some players come into an event just hunting for a win and not for fun. If they find that a donk deck is their quickest ticket to that win, they will take it. Especially if they don't have confidence in their ability to win with a different deck. Not all players regardless of the amount of time they've been playing or even their rating are good players.

Also just to make it clear: I am NOT one of those players with a donk deck. My current deck is RhyCatty... but there are Kingdra, Champ, and T-Tar w/Sableye lists in sleeves on my shelf for testing purposes. I am confident in my abilities and have only scrubbed in 2 events that I played in since OP started in WOTC days. One being NC States 09... Brought a rogue to a meta that I'd never actually played in.

 

[mine is cooler]

I don't understand why people think donking another person is fun. Useful? Yes, especially if you would have faced an autoloss. But to me, donking another person is one of the most annoying aspects to this game. I've only had a handful of donks against others, and I certainly didn't jump up and down and say, "Soooooo fun let's do it again!" Instead, I said a humble "sorry about that" and asked for another game.

I've never seen anyone jump up and down either. No one does that. Maybe juniors and seniors, but masters? Come on.

You don't see the fun in winning on T1? Ya sitting around for a while isn't fun waiting for your next match isn't fun. But going into round 7 your 5-1, you have to win to make top cut. You some how manage to get a god hand that T1's your opponent. Tell me, would you rather not make it into top cut and just have some good ole "fun", where you could win or lose, or make it in for sure giving you time to get ready for top cut?

If your going to reginals just to have a fun time not careing about your record, premier points, or winning then great. But if you know what might happen and it does TO BAD! It's not a big deal to get T1'd by machamp, that's what the deck is supposed to do.

If you can T1 someone and get angry when it happens to you, that's rediculous.

"i've donk'd people befor, but get mad when people donk me."

That's like getting new shoes then seeing your friend with the same kind and getting jelouse/angry at that person.

 

[Scizor]

I agree with Nance about T1 wins not being fun, but I disagree that anything is better than GG dominating. I would rather play GG mirror than deal with all these T1s. At least there was some skill involved with that! Honestly, Klaczynski has even said before that he thinks this format is boring and even rated it as the worst of the POP era so far. I would think that the opinion of him means something?

Also, I'll even throw some of my situations out this year to further illustrate how bad this is: First City Championship, I'm running Regigigas with 18 basics. I open first vs. Kingdra with a lone Mesprit and he gets the T1 Kingdra and Uxie into a PlusPower. Yeah, my fault! I don't even want to calculate the odds of that entire sequence happening, but it can't be that good. It gets worse. Our own State Champion here in California had something like 7 Turn 1 wins with Machamp? His only loss of the day? To me when I actually opened Toxicroak G and legitimately beat his good start (T2 Machamp going 2nd).

If printing Kingdra, Machamp, Ramparados and Sableye is the answer to "evening out" things as far as skill is concerned, I don't even know what to say. It's just lame?

 

[mine is cooler]

I can smell a cival war comming (all gym' members, one side for, one side against)

We all have our views. Nothing can be said to change either sides minds. Blah.

 

[GrandmaJoner]

rofl dude i have never changed my signature in my 5 years on this site, and imgonna do it now because that was just too hilarious, thanks a lot man really brightened up my day

 

[Martin]

This has been the best format I have ever seen and hope it stays the same!

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

You know ... it would be kind of fun if at nats there was a "PokeGym Battle" side event or something where folks here could square off and battle for fun.

 

[Prime]

Maybe a Pokegym Staff challenge table...lol

 

[The Captain]

I love that show. Honestly if this did go down I wanna watch lol "battle of the donks".

Then who ever wins can play me

seriously if i don't know who you are ill play you for money. Im not about to play people i cant beat for hundreds of dollars, but for randoms in 3/5 it doesn't matter. Or for cards i mean ill but of like 4 dialga g x for his four w/e.

 

[PokeDaddy]

This one has wound it's way to an end.