Survey - Donk'd - Turn 1 or 2 loss in Championship Events

[Godzfirefly]

Mainly because it was possible to combat them WITHOUT fearing your entire gameplan would be down the gutter by Turn 1? That might've helped the situation. Its also the entire point I have with donks. You can TRY to prepare but one stroke of bad luck and its over anyway. At least against decks like LBS you wouldnt lose if you didnt have multiple basics by the end of T1.
It doesnt take skill to donk. Any dope can play a bunch of Pokedexes, drop an Uxie, draw some more, play Rare Candy, Machamp and an Energy and call it a day. It also doesn't take a lot of skill to play the deck beyond that point - should I donk or should I coinflip?
I don't expect to win. I expect good games. Machamp is denying that.

Saying "any dope can play Machamp" is a ridiculous argument. You might as well say "any dope can play a bunch of cards, get out 4 Beedrill, and swarm Beedrill until their opponent is dust." Or, "any dope can throw Mesprits and Power Sprays at an opponent while swarming Palkias." All of these decks require skill to build and play. Sour grapes is what is making the format less enjoyable...not donks.

 

[Scipio]

The entire point with Machamp is that after the Donk fail, you are reduced to simply coin flipping (And a 100 for 1 from time to time). Oooh, skillful.
Do note I still have nothing against Machamp players. I have something against Machamp.

And yes, any dope can spam Mespirits and Power Sprays like crazy, but those people will fall to those who time their power spray/mespirit better. Mindless drawing into your donk, however, does not require any thinking at all.

 

[meganium45]

Scip, this criticism coming from a player who played Kingdra AND Rampardos this season?

Looks like you were using the donk decks yourself.

Let's see the card for what it is...a big bad pokemon.

We have always had those in the formats, and you know what? The formats have always survived.

Vince

 

[bulbasnore]

Scipio - good discussion^^. The thing about Machamp decks... the "played well" applies to them the same way as to the lock decks. Timing. When to warp, attack with Uxie/X, play 'champ X or to risk the H. Punch.

M45 - on a roll

 

[afstandopleren]

I Played Macheap with Lumineon SF tech at a BR in Almere. it was the Day of Donk there as at least half of the Masters played it. However, despite not playing the Cheap for the Donk, I did Donk someone. I felt bad for the person as I saw how disappointed he was while I was going for the easy way out: Donk for win.

Of course you could say something like "I PASS", giving your opponent another turn to make the game more fair. BUT WHO DOES THAT IF YOU CAN WIN T1 RIGHT???:nonono:

I decided from a moral point of view to choose decks that required more strategy then going FTW T1/T2. I also noticed that the more strategy there is to the deck I am playing, the more fulfillment I feel if I can get my strategy going. Why others don't feel the same way is something that's beyond me.

By all means, I am no saint, but I really think it's an unfair and they are usualy tied to players that are burned on winning. Nothing wrong with wanting to win, by not if it costs someone else's enjoyment of playing the game IMHO.

Sure I can't fight the people to prevent them from making more cards like Macheap, Kingdrool and Dumbdos. But I'd love to see people playing those decks give there opponent an extra turn to get started instead of screwing them over with a bodybuilder on steroids.

 

[Scipio]

Scip, this criticism coming from a player who played Kingdra AND Rampardos this season?

Looks like you were using the donk decks yourself.

Let's see the card for what it is...a big bad pokemon.

We have always had those in the formats, and you know what? The formats have always survived.

Vince

I've played Kingdra during BR's yes. Yet, my list wasn't build upon getting a donk T1, but was in fact build on the swarm and pumping out huge damage with Aqua Stream.
Yes, I've played Rampardos. Tested it out. Bombed with it. Want to know why? Because I got donked twice.

In case you haven't noticed, my criticism is mainly aimed at Machamp. I have yet to see a single game in which Coin Flips did NOT determine the outcome. Whether it was "Who gets to start" to get the T1 donk or "Lets see if I can flip 4 heads with Hurricane Punch" or "Lets see if I can flip heads on Strong-Willed", it was always a coin flip.

Also, here's my donking score of this season.

Total donks made: 0
Total donks conceded: 5

Just some stats. You'll also notice that throughout the thread, I've been wanting a better format. I don't like donk decks. I regret my choice for playing Rampardos. I liked Kingdra when it was new, until people built it purely for donking. I personally prefer a format like DX-PK, where you had the big powerful decks (Such as Flygon) and a few speed decks who were speedy enough to disrupt their setup yet didnt quite donk like now (Banette anyone). That balance was very good.

Enough personal defending, I find it rather low that you, a mod and professor, attack someone personally. Very low.

Now how about we get a solution to the problem here, rather then attacking one another? Because I still haven't seen anything but "DEAL WITH IT" coming from the donk-lovers who only care about fast wins/fast tournaments, rather then game enjoyment for everyone.

 

[meganium45]

Oh My Goodness.

If I hear one more person determine that the "moral" way to play is not for a turn 1 quick win, I am going to vomit all over my keyboard.

Who says that it is "immoral" to play a Machamp deck? A kingdra deck?

Why not just base your WHOLE deck on luck. No uxies, no claydols, as those are cheap cards to make your deck more consistant.

You know, if someone has won an event with the card, you certainly shouldn't copy their strategy or their deck, as that is the cheap way to play. You have to be original, right? To simply copy someone else's idea for a deck would be immoral, right?

These are legal cards that are for play in the game legally. The decks that are made with them are legal.

Are they irritating?

No more irritating than Scramble Energy back in the day, the rain bounce rain of a Blastoise onto a Lugia EX, the trainer lock of a Manectric EX, the utter lock of a Rock-lock....

Hate to tell you, but the best players who play these turn 1 decks don't go donk hunting. Heck, I heard Kevin W. won a Regional and a State using Machamp with only one FTW between the two tourneys! This is a master who like the card for its cheap attacks and the skill choices and opprotunities it presented.

Heck, I played Machamp at league last night, and squeaked out a win, by playing, and having knocked out, Machamp Level X on 3 straight turns!!!

Not "brainless" but pretty high level strategy.

If you can get the FTW, great!

The better machamp players set up the Claydol first to gain the consistancy throughout, rather than sell out for a quick knockout when there are more than one Pokemon on the board...

There is a lot of skill in a Machamp deck, when played correctly.

This unwritten moral code that is pervasive in this thread, and even put forth by some judges really makes me step back. How can we state that a way to win, which is allowed by the game perfectly legally is more or less legitimate than any other way to win?

Once judges start declaring the Machamp wins as less than "real" wins, they lose some of their objectivity.

I don't care if you win by decking, FTKO, late game skill move, or other such fun...a win will still be recorded as a win at my events.

Vince

Scip, I was typin while you were respondin.

Machamp has ALWAYS been a coin flip Pokemon. It is how the Pokemon has been designed. From Base Set, to Giovanni's Machamp, to other Machamps. Coin flips are usually what make a player run away screaming from a Pokemon. For this Pokemon...they have given it some power.

Did I criticize you? Yes, sure. I simply pointed out the hypocricy of a critic who used the decks in question now arguing against them.

Just to update, I am not a mod, which allows me to speak freely here.

Also, when I come out swinging, and you suddenly take my opinion as an attack...you are simply trying to limit the discussion to a series of defensive moves. Not going to take the bait...going to continue the discussion.

I am a professor. Which makes me watch out for the integrity of the game. I like the balance of the game as it sits RIGHT NOW. Best format...ever. Some problems, but not the "Play this or lose" mentality we have had for the past several years.

What I feel you and all the other "Champ" haters are doing is taking on a very legitimate card which balances the format almost by itself, and hating it for doing what it is intended to do. Balance is good.

Vince

 

[Scipio]

At least in your examples you get more gametime then 40 seconds, amiryte?

 

[meganium45]

Yes, but I did get off a turn 1 win in Tennessee States using Beedrill and a plus power on a Baltoy against an opponent.

Was it a cheap way to win?

No, it was taking advantage of a situation that presented itself.

Worst part was, he revealed the card he drew was...the Roseanne's that would have saved him the next turn to get out the ,,,, Magmortar.

I lucked from an auto loss to a FTW.

Not the traditional FTW, but still, game took less than 40 seconds...I reported, and rematched him later in the day. Took my 40 minutes off, as I needed it.

You are entitled to a game. Not a 6 prize game, or a 40 (bleh) minute game...but a game. Some games end quickly. They are still games.

Vince

 

[afstandopleren]

Right back at ya Vince.

Oh My Goodness.

If I hear one more person determine that the "moral" way to play is not for a turn 1 quick win, I am going to vomit all over my keyboard. Please do vommit, I will keep saying it over and over again. moral moral moral moral

Who says that it is "immoral" to play a Machamp deck? A kingdra deck? I do if it's sole intend is going for the T1 win and I am sure that I am not the only one.

Why not just base your WHOLE deck on luck. No uxies, no claydols, as those are cheap cards to make your deck more consistant.*Uses Hurricane Punch Flip Flip Flip Flip*. I'm sorry Vince, but this comment just doesn't fly.

You know, if someone has won an event with the card, you certainly shouldn't copy their strategy or their deck, as that is the cheap way to play. You have to be original, right? To simply copy someone else's idea for a deck would be immoral, right? You really want me to answer that if you have answered it yourself?

These are legal cards that are for play in the game legally. The decks that are made with them are legal. Wow, another no brainer there. but just because it exists and is legal, doesn't make it a morally (YES I SAID IT AGAIN) good card to play.

Are they irritating? Yes because you say no.

No more irritating than Scramble Energy back in the day, the rain bounce rain of a Blastoise onto a Lugia EX, the trainer lock of a Manectric EX, the utter lock of a Rock-lock.... Lock decks will always suck of you are being locked for eternity, BUT YOU DON'T LOOSE T1! >_>

Hate to tell you, but the best players who play these turn 1 decks don't go donk hunting. Heck, I heard Kevin W. won a Regional and a State using Machamp with only one FTW between the two tourneys! This is a master who like the card for its cheap attacks and the skill choices and opportunities it presented. Wow, he's sooo not playing FTW with a deck that has the capacity to do so and is geared for it with 'consistency'. Big whoop if those people won and big whoop if he didn't Donk anyone because everyone was lucky enough to have multiple Basics in play right from the get go. I bet that that Kevin person would not pass a turn for the sake of a good game and letting his opponent get an extra chance to set up. I mean, he would be out of his freaking mind would he?

Heck, I played Machamp at league last night, and squeaked out a win, by playing, and having knocked out, Machamp Level X on 3 straight turns!!! congrats on being able to have your Macheap LV.X survive multiple turns before drawing your last prize. >_>

Not "brainless" but pretty high level strategy. If the strategy involves playing a bunch of Unown R, Uxies etc. to use Take Out on a lone Basic than I can't called it a strategy. It's just a bunch of card drawing in order to win T1 or T2 ASAP.

If you can get the FTW, great!Spoken like a true MaCheap player.

The better machamp players set up the Claydol first to gain the consistancy throughout, rather than sell out for a quick knockout when there are more than one Pokemon on the board... Yet any 'sane' Macheap player goes for the T1 ability anyhow, so why does getting the Claydol matter?

There is a lot of skill in a Machamp deck, when played correctly. That spins my ROFLcopter!

This unwritten moral code that is pervasive in this thread, and even put forth by some judges really makes me step back. How can we state that a way to win, which is allowed by the game perfectly legally is more or less legitimate than any other way to win? Morals are unwritten but are based on common sense. But I guess you didn't know that. And yes, it's troublesome that the cards exist, but it's presence is a disturbing thing. We all have a choice, yet most people seem to be the one with negative consequences.

Once judges start declaring the Machamp wins as less than "real" wins, they lose some of their objectivity. Coming from a fellow Pokeprof, I am taking it with a grain of salt.

I don't care if you win by decking, FTKO, late game skill move, or other such fun...a win will still be recorded as a win at my events. It's so skillful if you win because you can use Take Out on all your opponents Pokemon because there is no way to get Unown G back. :nonono: it's so skillful if you can win because you flip just enough heads on Hurricane Punch. <_>

Vince

 

[meganium45]

Woot and Chaw! Are we having fun yet?

The machamp X was knocked out each time on three straight turns, and had to be rescued, or NM/Bebe's to return.

I appreciate the responses. This is a fun discussion.

Vince

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Vince I haven't had much of a problem with this format. I don't mind folks playing Machamp & think it's a valid choice. With all that in mind, just FYI, I don't find some your recent posts "fun." They seem to be putting folks down in a big way.

 

[Scipio]

Yes. Just as fun as you attacking me and then completely ignoring my statement to that.
Whatever, I find that we're just walking circles here. There are pretty roughly 4 camps.

Camp 1: The diehard anti-donkers who play with morals throughout the debate.
Camp 2: Those who dont like donk and want to look for a situation.
Camp 3: Those who dont mind the donks but arent hating on those who dislike donks.
Camp 4: Those who seem to support donks and are deaf to arguments from the other camps.

Quite frankly, Nrs 1 and 4 make me tired of this debate. We could keep coming up with the same arguments over and over again but we aren't getting anywhere. I quit this debate, for my arguments fall on deaf ears anyway.

 

[DarthPika]

Vince, yes, Macheap does take decent skills to build well and use well. BUT, in comparison with most of the other decks out there it's about the cheapest, easiest, most skill less deck in existence.

For example. I, the master of luck, got paired up against a Macheap the first round of VA states with me using Legos. I had to use everything I knew, and everything I had experienced in my many ours of testing just to beat the darned thing, which I JUST managed to pull off. Heres the really sad part of it. No offence in any way to my opponent, but he was a Pokedad who is about average playing level. He sat there for most of his turns, with the biggest decision he had to make being what to attach an energy to. His list wasn't even all that amazing and he came VERY close to donking me and almost won by flipping a ton of heads on Hurricane Punch, one more probably winning him the game. Can't you see which side of that battle took much more skill, and why we say Machamp is skill less? Come on, I KNOW Machamp players who willingly admit that there isn't much to playing their deck. Stop trying to say it takes skill to flip heads.

Now, I will say that a 1-0-1 Machamp line can make a great tech for a st2 deck to fight of G pokemon. I have no problem with stuff like that. Its baseing an entire deck of the stupid thing that gives me problems.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Yes. Just as fun as you attacking me and then completely ignoring my statement to that.
Whatever, I find that we're just walking circles here. There are pretty roughly 4 camps.

Camp 1: The diehard anti-donkers who play with morals throughout the debate.
Camp 2: Those who dont like donk and want to look for a situation.
Camp 3: Those who dont mind the donks but arent hating on those who dislike donks.
Camp 4: Those who seem to support donks and are deaf to arguments from the other camps.

Quite frankly, Nrs 1 and 4 make me tired of this debate. We could keep coming up with the same arguments over and over again but we aren't getting anywhere. I quit this debate, for my arguments fall on deaf ears anyway.

I'm quite willing to pick up the slack for you. :tongue:

 

[bullados]

To anybody who says that building a Machamp deck takes no skill, please rethink your approach.

I've had several players in my area attempt to build Machamp decks. Keep in mind that there are at least 3 Trophy winners amongst this group.

Not one of them could consistently beat my G-less Dialga deck. A bad build of one, at that.

After looking through their decks, I suggested that they modify at least 1/4 to 1/3 of their decks. Outside resources FTW.

Now, I'm scrambling to find my Gs again to counter the matchup.

I also find it strange that any of the G-donk have been virtually ignored in this entire thought process.

How difficult is it to Crobat, Honchkrow, Darkness, Gain FTW? Especially when running 2+ Uxie in the deck? And with all of the tools that SP has?

Or to Stadium, Toxicroak, Skuntank, Psychic, Gain FTW?

In a span of 7 games against a Dusknoir deck with my Dialga's Toolbox, I won on turn 3 or sooner 5 times. The other two times I was short either a Crobat, a Gain, or an Energy, and the game was over by turn 10.

The donk has been here since the game first started.

Haymaker and Blastoise were both essentially Turn 1-2 Kill decks, even though they rarely had a complete game win on turn 1.

Far too many games at SBZs were decided on turn 1 by a lucky Tyrogue flip against a Cleffa.

ZRE was considered a donk deck for a *very* long time because of the frightening and insanely consistent turn 2 damage the deck was capable of, and could continuously maintain that damage over the course of an entire game.

Medicham was a donk deck by completely locking the format turn 2. Same with MewTrick.

I've both won and lost roughly the same amount of games due to the donk. Even including my streak against that Dusknoir deck.

You learn. You adapt. You build for the format.

If the format doesn't have a whole ton of speed, but is designed more for setup and consistency, then you build your decks with that in mind.

If the format is faster than an Indy racer (as this format is), you build your decks with that in mind.

There's a big difference between your version of "morals" and "SOTG". Read over the document again. "Fun", "Fair", "Honest", "Respect", and "Learning". I don't see where the donk violates any of these SOTG tenants.

I have just as much fun playing short games as playing long games.

Both players theoretically have access to the same card pool. Neither player has cheated.

If neither player cheats, honesty is preserved.

I will always shake my opponent's hand and thank them for the game, win or lose.

Losing is the ultimate learning experience. The best way to learn about this game (or life in general) is to lose. Then, you know improve yourself for the next time.

I'll leave my ramblings here. Enjoy! :biggrin:

 

[meganium45]

Scipio, not attacking you at all...making an observation.

Trust me, if I were actually attacking you, with as close as some Mods are watching this thread, I would have been tagged.

If my pointing out that you used the decks you are now arguing against is an attack, then brother, you had better grow a thicker skin.

The camps as I see it are as follows:

1. Those that hate the turn 1 loss in the current format.

2. Those that accept the turn 1 loss in the current format as a part of that format.

Have I ever said I thought that Machamp was good for the game? Anywhere? Other than balancing the format? I feel the pain of those that travel and are hit quickly, but guess what? It has ALWAYS happened.

I was not the side who came out swinging, welcome back to the convo Pika, and accusing people having the nerve to beat them when they had no skill. The nerve of taking a loss to a "scrub" or a "n00b" or whatever you all were calling them.

I was never the one who accused players of being unsporting, immoral, or otherwise cheap players for using these decks. That was done by you all. That type of attack is frankly offensive.

I am firmly in camp 2.

Several of you are in camp 1.

I do like the role of Machamp in this format of keeping the pure SP decks at bay. It serves that role very well. Otherwise, we would all be worried about Mewtwo Level X as the only thing keeping the SP decks at bay.

Vince

 

[baby mario]

There's a big difference between your version of "morals" and "SOTG". Read over the document again. "Fun", "Fair", "Honest", "Respect", and "Learning". I don't see where the donk violates any of these SOTG tenants.

I think you mean 'tenets' :wink:

You could well argue that T1 wins do little or nothing to promote 'fun' in the game (if playing the game is fun, then having it end in 1 turn isn't doing a lot for that).

 

[meganium45]

Oh, is he going to say it folks...is he going to say it...

Yes, he might...he might...

To paraphrase one of those I am having a discussion with, could it be said that fun is for league?

vg, I think I have been careful to avoid putting people down in this discussion.

If I hit close to the quick, so be it. This is obviously an emotional discussion for some.

That being said...

I remember the good old days of Recharge, Dual Ball, Zapdos EX...and that was winning events!

BIG events!

Talk about a simple, straightforward play!

Zap-turn-dos for the win!!!

This game has changed in the last few years...significantly.

There is a much smaller learning curve for players to get good VERY quickly at this point.

It is what makes it fun.


Vince

 

[SteveP]

[DEL]
Wow. This thread drifted off-topic.
[/DEL] Nevermind. Got my topics mixed up. :redface:
Like Vince and others have said - donk decks tend to stay the same after the first few turns (don't escalate in power like other decks). There-in lies the skillful use of these decks - how to win the "long" games.

I've played in only two premier events this season. I haven't been donked yet, and only came close on one occasion.

I DID win one of my BZ semi-final games because my opponent "hand-crapped." Did I feel bad for him? A bit, perhaps (he almost donked me in the previous game). But he was a gracious player and knew that was just part of the game, as did I. It happens. You deal with it - like SlowDeck said.