Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The LCQ - Why, Nintendo?

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This thread is by no means me having sour grapes about losing in the LCQ. My goal was to get to the last round, and I accomplished that. I have absolutely no issues with getting eliminated.

But as far as the change in format from swiss to single elimination, I just don't see why they would even consider doing it. Let me explain this from a player's point of view.

First of all, I got in line for registration at around 10:15. The rounds for Juniors and Seniors didn't start until 3. If you got a first round bye, you had to wait until 4. That's a whole lot of waiting time. And that's usually okay for a huge tournament because you know you'll be rewarded with a lot of playing time. However, half the people didn't even get to play an hour. That's basically between 5 and 6 hours of waiting for most people, yet a large majority won't be playing more than 3 hours.

So when we finally started playing, the atmosphere was far more intense than most tournaments. In most large-scale tournaments, people talk about where they are from and stuff before rounds. People talked about that here too, but by far the main thing people were saying was how nervous they were. Nobody liked the new rules. And when I won games and matches, it didn't even feel rewarding. A couple of my opponents were on the verge of tears - I honestly felt bad about booting people from the tournament who most likely invested over a 1000 dollars to come here. And maybe I just have too much of a conscience, but when I was eliminated my opponent barely smiled when he was told there would be a top 16 cut instead of a top 8 and he had a spot in worlds. Maybe he was being a good sport, but he seemed to genuinely feel bad.

And people will say this is crazy because it's no different from a top cut. But it is very different. See, players who make it to the top cut have already accomplished something. So even if they lose in the first round, there's hardly a reason to feel bad. Players playing in a top cut have also played a good number of swiss rounds and probably had fun in those. Another huge difference is that most of the time players in the top cut are getting prizes. So when they walk away, they still have something to look forward to. Usually when I walk away from a top cut, I'm thinking about what cards I want to pull in my packs. When I walked away from the grinder, I just kept on thinking, "why did I play the damn PlusPower?" And it's not the first time a misplay has cost me - usually I just forget about it though. I can't change it to be anything else, so no reason kicking myself over it.

I suppose most of these things are less of issues in Masters, but I'd assume they're also more of an issue in Juniors. I often saw a couple of kids crying when I was going down the escalators to the open play area between rounds.

The reason for the change was apparently to keep the judges fresh for the next day. But this was certainly not their only option, and there were probably better ones. For example, they could sell individual cards at a stand for cheaper prices than most vendors in order to be able to afford more judges for the LCQ. Most vendors have to make a profit off of buying cases of booster boxes, but Nintendo would only have to make a profit off of printing shiny pieces of cardboard. So I imagine the store would get a lot of business as the prices would be unmatched and it would be the only single-card vendor at worlds, and therefore would be very profitable. And if I actually spent time on it, I'm sure I could think of more ideas.

One last issue - in the first round ("Top 256"), my match went to game 3 sudden death. I opened a lone Tyrogue and by pure luck he couldn't get his out while going first. If a game is that close and I made it much further, I wouldn't be surprised if my opponent would have too. Heck, Ness and Gino could have gotten paired in round 1. Yet they are probably both better than a majority of people who would be playing in the next round. I know this has been brought up before, but I wanted to emphasize it again.

The LCQ didn't seem to see too much of a drop in attendance from past years, but if others' experiences were like mine then I'd assume there will be a drop next year. If this happens, I assume there will be a drop in prerelease attendance because there will be less people overall. Now, I don't know if Nintendo makes a profit off of the average player who doesn't compete in worlds but still attends (because of side event prizes), but if they do then a drop in attendance would mean a drop in the number of Prerelease attendees. This leads to a drop in profits. So, hopefully we'll see a change back to the way it was before (eventually).

/rant
 
I like the best 2 out of 3 but i found the judging to be terrible. And grinders is always tense, its just this time every game was you being on the bubble.
 
Imagine how I feel... I drew all of 3 supporter my entire top 32 masters match and then had to watch all the other socal guys walk away with their goodie bags :(
 
Well it is LCQ, not "here's an easy tournament so you can qualify for worlds without having played any games all season".
 
Its how the game goes by all means you did amazing but i understand little kids are gonna cry over not getting into worlds, but then again most of them want to do better after that little cry making them want to try harder and be better. Another thing is little kids will cry when losing a top cut game in a BR it just happens. Its part of the game
 
Keep in mind this is the first year that you can actually qualify to worlds through grinders while having 6 losses.

For those complaining about losing once and getting kicked out of grinders....being 2/3 you need to LOSE twice before you're eliminated in the first place, which in any other year would have been enough to prevent you from winning the invite anyways.

"But we don't care about the invite we just wanted to play."

To that I have two things to say.
1) With the exception of family members and some locals, you DO care about the invite otherwise you wouldnt have bothered coming.
2) You can always play games in the 24 hour gaming room!
 
Keep in mind this is the first year that you can actually qualify to worlds through grinders while having 6 losses.

For those complaining about losing once and getting kicked out of grinders....being 2/3 you need to LOSE twice before you're eliminated in the first place, which in any other year would have been enough to prevent you from winning the invite anyways.

"But we don't care about the invite we just wanted to play."

To that I have two things to say.
1) With the exception of family members and some locals, you DO care about the invite otherwise you wouldnt have bothered coming.
2) You can always play games in the 24 hour gaming room!

You seem to be forgetting that this is also the first LCQ where you have to win 12 games to get in. The argument "you can lose 6 games where you could only lose 1 in the past years" never seems to include that you also need to win more... sure, not 6 times as many wins are needed, but you could also drop out with only two losses.
Posted with Mobile style...
 
For a player coming back from a long break, I liked this format. I thought 2/3 elimination was nice because of the new rotation, since it's still a format many are getting use to. I can tell you that if I got donked game 1 in the LCQ resulting in elimination I would have been very upset. Much more upset than losing in best 2/3.

Plus there's games running all around the clock on the main floor. They had a "mini" side tournament (8 people) where you can play for FREE. If you at least win once you get at least 2 Booster Packs (4th and 3rd). Plus you're not limited to the number of tournaments you can play. This was only on Friday, who knows what other things they will hold on Saturday. I personally think TPCi has done a great job in having free events with prizes, people can at least have numerous chances to walk away with something if they're not participating in the Worlds tournament. If anything I would rather use this opportunity to play against many new players.
 
The format of the LCQ reduces the amount luck plays on who grinds in and increases the amount of skill needed to qualify. Best 2 out of 3 helps establish who should have won the match much more than a one game match. I do agree that single elimination is not fun when you lose after waiting for the tournament to start, but everyone knew that they could go home after one match before they signed up.

Besides, the focus of the World Championships is not the LCQ - they could just as easily not have a LCQ tournament.
 
I like the best 2 out of 3 but i found the judging to be terrible. And grinders is always tense, its just this time every game was you being on the bubble.

Right but it's nowhere as near as tense when you're not on the bubble. The only time tournaments are this tense are when you're on the bubble, and that's when they're least fun. And the people on the bubble have already lost once, so it's their fault that they're there (or luck, or whatever you want to blame it on). Sure, you have to lose once still but it feels like you're in that position the entire time.

---------- Post added 08/13/2011 at 08:51 AM ----------

Its how the game goes by all means you did amazing but i understand little kids are gonna cry over not getting into worlds, but then again most of them want to do better after that little cry making them want to try harder and be better. Another thing is little kids will cry when losing a top cut game in a BR it just happens. Its part of the game

I said at least once I have no sour grapes about getting eliminated - I never do. I have sour grapes about the format they decided to use for the grinder. I would be posting this thread even if I got in. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see nearly as many upset faces after a round of top cut.

---------- Post added 08/13/2011 at 08:59 AM ----------

Keep in mind this is the first year that you can actually qualify to worlds through grinders while having 6 losses.

For those complaining about losing once and getting kicked out of grinders....being 2/3 you need to LOSE twice before you're eliminated in the first place, which in any other year would have been enough to prevent you from winning the invite anyways.

"But we don't care about the invite we just wanted to play."

To that I have two things to say.
1) With the exception of family members and some locals, you DO care about the invite otherwise you wouldnt have bothered coming.
2) You can always play games in the 24 hour gaming room!

Also keep in mind that you could go and win 10 games in a row, then go 1-2 in the final round and not get in. 11-2 should be getting in, and I wouldn't be surprised if at least going 10-2 happened to somebody. And you're playing against the game opponent every time. I didn't do this, but suppose I brought Reshiram to the grinder. Then, I play a Samurott first round and get out. If I had stayed in, I know I had favorable matchups for the rest of the time and could probably grind in. So you lose to the same opponent twice in order to get out, which never happens in Swiss. And don't say that happens in Top Cut, because while it does it doesn't necessarily determine the best player. So in a tournament to decide a few of the best players in the world not in worlds, losing to an auto-loss or teched deck doesn't determine any level of skill for either player. They could tech specifically for your deck if they wanted.

I never said I don't want the invite - where did I say that? I just said that every game I won felt less rewarding than it usually does. And sure, I'll play in the side events and they'll be a lot of fun. But those aren't enough of a reason to fly down to San Diego. Between that and having a blast in the grinder (or worlds in past years), it is worth the trip. However, I wasn't having any fun while playing in the grinder.
 
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I didn't need to complain. I heard the grinder format, and complete wrote off the LCQ as a complete frusration. No complaints, because I didn't bother. I played in the grinder several times, never grinded in, but enjoyed them all. Last time I played, I came in 13th and top 12 of the pod made it. To think I would travel to just to play for 1 round, why bother.

I am a person who can go 3-5 and have a great time. But to go 0-1, 1-1, 2-1, seems like a great chance to be frustrated even in failure. Again, there are players that just enjoy the game, and playing side events isn't the same.
 
Good players will have to eliminate good players to win, sometimes the best players or teams face in the first round. It happens in every game ever made, even with seeding systems. The best two players don't always get 1st and 2nd place, if they did, there would be no point in even having a tournament.

If you face a friend or another great player in early rounds and one of you gets knocked out, tough luck.

And, lastly, this is the last chance qualifier. If you want to have a safer, more consistent way to get an invite, play throughout the entire season. The last chance qualifier is hit and miss, and the new system makes it even more so.
 
instead of whining people should be thnakful nintendo is giving people a last chance to qualify for worlds . if they didnt shift to knock-out round system using a best of 3 format, im sure the complaint we will be seeing is turn 1 donks. simply put, people will always find fault in whatever format nintendo implements. nonetheless, players need to realize that when they sign-up for the LCQ you will always face the possibility of losing. BUT if you get eliminated its not the end of the world. there are other activities to enjoy at worlds.
 
As someone who has judged in 4 worlds/grinders, you have to understand that from a staff viewpoint, the LCQ is not worth going untill 2 am then you have a staff who has to judge Worlds with a few hours sleep. As stated before, the LCQ is EXTRA for those who couldn't make it through ratings. I really like the idea of the LCQ beinbg a " win or go home" feel!
 
As someone who has judged in 4 worlds/grinders, you have to understand that from a staff viewpoint, the LCQ is not worth going untill 2 am then you have a staff who has to judge Worlds with a few hours sleep. As stated before, the LCQ is EXTRA for those who couldn't make it through ratings. I really like the idea of the LCQ beinbg a " win or go home" feel!

I'm sure this is true from a judging perspective. It's not very player friendly though. There must be a way to find a better balance.
 
Be grateful that Pokemon even gives you a second chance to get in. They could just say only people with an invite can play.
 
I'm sure this is true from a judging perspective. It's not very player friendly though. There must be a way to find a better balance.

That's the problem. What's good for the players is a horrendous endurance test for the staff. No one wants to ask a Judge a difficult question, and have them try to figure it out on 3 hours sleep. The only way to give players their 'ideal' grinder (based on what you and a few others have said) is to have two completely different staff sets - one for the grinder and one for the rest of Worlds. Feasible? I think not. ^^; They're trying to find a balance that both sides can like. They just haven't found it yet.

That being said, I think it would be awesome to see the Grinder be something unique - more like the Professor Cup. Force it to revolve more around being able to improvise than just smashing through the competition. If they did it with smaller decks (Like 40 cards, 3/4 prizes) they could make the rounds go faster, which would help the judges stay fresh. Keep the players on their toes, announce the format around Nationals. That way they've got to make a deck completely different from their "main" deck and play it. "This year it's Basics only!" "This year you're not allowed to play Supporters!" "This year you must run 20 or more energy!" etc. This has two things going for it. First off, it would give people a taste of what Japan does every year, coming to a big event using a format they don't normally play in. Second, anyone who doesn't make it through the grinder has played in something totally unique, a special experience. If the idea takes off, some players with invites might even WANT to play the Grinder! But hey, I'm dreaming here. :biggrin:
 
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^I love that idea. It puts people from all across the world on even footing, because none of them have played in the environment before. 40 card decks with 4 prizes would be good, then maybe 20 minutes plus 3 turns instead of the usual. But there are all kinds for possibilities for that. Except basics only wouldn't be much fun in most formats imo.

And the years I played in Worlds, the judging wasn't bad at all. Honestly, the judging was worse in the LCQ this year than any other tournament I've played in (no offense to any judges). Obviously I can't speak for the judges, as I'm sure they hated the long hours of staying up. It's too bad there's no way to have the LCQ after worlds, as worlds is usually done earlier in the night so the major endurance test would be last.

The people who are saying be grateful and stuff are right to an extent. I didn't play a single tournament all season, so a chance to come close to the main event was cool. But still, if you are going to put the effort into having a tournament like this one, I really feel this was minimalistic. They could have done better than this. Much, much better. I mean people in this thread are coming up with ideas that seem to be more widely accepted than the new format.

Heck, they could have half the worlds judges do the first half to 3/4 of the LCQ then the rest do the second half. At least this way, half the people are rested and the other half at least didn't have to work long hours.
 
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