The line between upholding the spirit of the game or being a pushover.How thin is it?

[jigglejuice]

I played a city championships today and my record was... poor to say the least. We went six rounds. Of the matches I lost , three were pretty much decided by me correcting my opponent on errors they commited in my favor or me not taking advantage of a short attention span. Here are my three situations. I did what I felt was the right thing in these situations and my play group and busted my chops for it. Was I a pushover or just being nice?

Situation one:

My opponent was playing a reshirom and I was playing a tangrowth. He had nothing left on his bench and 80 left on his reshirom. If he survived the turn he would be able to knock me out for his last prize. I only managed 60 damage on him, but being a new player he had a slight lapse in memory and thought reshirom was a 110 hp pokemon. Meaning he was scooping Reshirom up to declare it knocked out when I corrected him on his error. He then played an interview, slapped a double colorless on and outraged me for the knockout. Was it his obligation to know his cards or was I morally obligated by the spirit of the game to allow him to correct his error?

Situation 2:

This involved another player playing Reshirom. This one was around the middle of the game so I don't know how large of an impact it had, but I felt it started the ball rolling to my defeat. I had a Reshirom within two strikes of being knocked out. I struck the first blow, but his outrage wasn't enough for the knockout. So my opponent used blue flare. Having 3 fire energies on his Reshirom he began discarding all of them stating that blue flare required him to discard all energies on him to use it. I once again corrected my opponent to my own demise. Next turn he slapped an energy on and began rolling over me with outrage. Had I allowed him to discard all energies, the return attack would have been impossible and my path to the win would have been alot clearer. Once again: pushover or nice player?

Situation 3:

I played an opponent who had a habit of looking at his hand while it was in his lap during my turns. You know the kind I'm talking about. Absolutely oblivious to the other player's actions. Well we go to the 5th turn of the game and I looked over to my left side of my board and noticed I had forgotten to lay down my prizes. I am completely confident that I would have been able to slip 6 cards into the prize slot without him being the wiser, but once again being the kind of guy I am, I informed him of the situation and we agreed to give him as a prize as a penalty without calling a judge over. That might have resulted in an automatic loss for me by that point in the game. So what do you think about this one. Was I right for owning up to my forgetfulness or should I have just slipped those prizes in there and continued on? By the way I lost the match because I was one turn to late in putting an energy on a benched pokemon. Had he been required to take one more prize the benched pokemon would have finished him off.

So that is the general question posed. Where does the line for maintaining spirit of the game end and the line for being a chump, push over or sucker begin? Not just in these situations, but in the context of the game in general if you would.

 

[cabd]

Situation one: Not only did you do the right move, had you let him declare knockout and a judge had been watching, you would have been in the wrong as well.

Situation two: See situation one.

Situation three: Personally, I would have paused the game and called for a judge. It's not really up to you to penalize yourself, etc. They provide game judges for scenarios exactly like that.

 

[baby mario]

Those first two situations . . . what you did was not cheat. That's the least you can do for SotG.

It's the responsibility of both players to make sure the game is played correctly.

Also, your 'play group' needs to grow up.

 

[smacktack15]

Of these make you sound like you lack SOTG for even posting them. You coud have posted another 500 million "if my opponent forgets that their Pokemon has XX printed HP can I draw prizes cards and win" or "my opponent wasn't looking so I decided to heal some damage, is that being a pushover for not doing it?" etc. and they all sound horribly bad. If I were one of your local judges, I would keep an eye on you even knowing you had secondary thoughts on these.

 

[bullados]

1 and 2... If you had acted ANY differently, and any Judge was around, you would have likely earned yourself some pretty severe penalties.

3... Call a Judge. They get paid the big bucks to sort out this kind of stuff ^_^

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

In Scrabble, this would be acceptable (the analogous situation of a non-dictionary word being played). But allowing the game to go in an illogical direction has to be prohibited otherwise future cards could become irresolvably complex. Damage counters can't start appearing from nowhere, it's not SotG it's more fundamental than that.

 

[losjackal]

I'd be interested to hear one of the "play to win" advocates genuinely weigh in on this topic (if there is any differing opinion).

However, since part of the rules say both players need to maintain the state of the game, that includes accurately calculating damage and assessing KOs. If you want to play the game fairly, you did the right thing in #1 and #2.


True story: at a State tournament last year, I faced a Feraligatr player with my Yanmega. Near the end of the game, I attacked with Sonic Boom and applied x2 Grass Weakness to OHKO the Gatr. The opponent saw it the same way, and I won the match. Later that day, I learned that Sonic Boom doesn't apply weakness (read the darn card!!), and I felt terrible. I knew nothing could be done about it, but I found the player, apologized that I/we made that mistake, and at least wanted him to know for future matches.

I imagine that there are people who would try to do that intentionally, but those are probably the same people that steal binders and decks when the owner isn't looking. You are clearly not one of those.

 

[djjoe227]

I played a city championships today and my record was... poor to say the least. We went six rounds. Of the matches I lost , three were pretty much decided by me correcting my opponent on errors they commited in my favor or me not taking advantage of a short attention span. Here are my three situations. I did what I felt was the right thing in these situations and my play group and busted my chops for it. Was I a pushover or just being nice?

I'm going to play the "Play to Win" aspect. You did mention it was City Championships, after all, not some local tournament. As a disclaimer- I use "He" and "him", my apologies if I'm not gender-correct.


Situation one:

You need to tell us more about this situation. Did he actually begin to scoop? If he did, let him finish. You don't know his hand, what he's thinking, what he could/could not do, or if he wanted to quit. We, as readers, don't know the round number, time in round, or anything. Did he announce his memory lapse? Were there only two cards on the field (Tangrowth and Reshiram)? Was it down to one prize each? If a player wants to get up from a game and consider it a loss, let him. If the issue was him not putting enough damage counters, or KO'ing a Reshiram that wasn't actually supposed to be KO'ed, then you did the right thing. You should be following the rules, and you are allowed to quit or forfeit a match.

Personally, I would've done what you did.

Situation 2:

Non-issue. You follow the rules of the game and maintain the proper state of the game. You can't discard 3 Fire Energies for Blue Flare.


Situation 3:

I agree with the other posters- you should have raised your hand and explained the situation to the Judge immediatley after noticing. Additionally, if the cards were literally on his lap and not above the table, I would've asked the opponent to put his hands above the table.

 

[Ignatious]

This is a competitive game, if people can't understand their own cards that is an advantage you have on said person. If they want to forget their pokemon's health, they have not earned a win. Choosing your deck isn't the only skill factor in pokemon, it takes knowing your cards.

I'm a little more skeptical of the 2nd scenario so I won't make an claims for that one, but your opponent has the right to scoop at any given moment. Once he scooped his cards, that's his choice, and a rather dumb one. You clearly deserve the win between the two of you.

The 2nd scenario is different, because discard only 2 energy is a built in part of the game, and didn't involve an opponent's choice.

The third scenario would obviously been cheating if you laid your prizes out. Is this actually debatable?

 

[PokePop]

These are all pretty clear cut cases. Those examples are nowhere near where the line of SotG and pushover is. It would be more interesting to consider an example where your opponent is making an error that does not break the game state.

I'll give you an example from the early years of the game.

I had met up with fellow PokeGym mod Pokesensei at the Super Trainer Showdown Qualifier Mall Tour event in Maryland.
I had finished my match for the round and went over to watch him. Hehad an Erica's Dratini active. For those that don't recall that card, it had a Pokemon Power ("Body") Strange Barrier that said, in effect, "If an attack from a Basic Pokemon does more than 10 damage to this Pokemon, reduce it to 10 damage". His opponent wasn't familiar with the card and asked what it did. In response, Pokesensei picked up the card and presented it to him to read it. He did not state what the Power did. His opponent had an active Wigglytuff ("Do the Wave") with a full bench. After reading the card, he said "Well, no point in attacking" and he passed. He did this for multiple turns, having not noticed that the effect only applied to Basic Pokemon and not to his evolved Wigglytuff.

So, the SotG question is: Do you allow him to keep him misunderstanding and not attack, or do you speak up and say, "You know, that doesn't apply to your evolved Wigglytuff"?

Note: If the player had attacked and placed 1 damage counter, it would have been clear that you have to place the correct amount of damage on your Pokemon, KO'ing it.
This is where the opponent decides to just pass and not attack at all.

Discuss.

 

[losjackal]

OK I'll start by venturing my opinion.

"Play to win" would dictate that you not play his game for him. I'm okay with that. In modern terms, it feels like an opponent forgetting that Vileplume is no longer in play and they are free to play Trainers again. If they look stuck, I'm sure not going to remind them!

If you're a really nice person, and have no hope of making Top Cut, then you might want to help the player out in real time. If your Premier Rating can afford to take the hit, why not help them advance further? Sure, maybe they're a newbie and might not get much further anyway, but you'll make them feel good.

 

[chriscobi634]

I'd be interested to hear one of the "play to win" advocates genuinely weigh in on this topic (if there is any differing opinion).

And here I am.

During the first few seasons I played this game I was all about practicing SoTG, as I like being an honest and noble player. ( I want this previous statement 100% clear, I don't cheat or angle shoot or anything like that.) Sure it made me feel like a better person, but it didn't get me into top cuts. Which if you know anything about me, you would know that I'm am extremely competitive, to the point where I even frown upon myself for being so competitive and not just enjoy the game more. So it was like a double edge sword for me.

After one of the most recognized players, I won't mention his name just so I do lose his respect, said "Chris you would be making a lot more top cuts if you didn't play so nice". I started playing a lot more cut throat, and surely started making those top cuts that I should have been making all along. Did it make me feel like a bad person, no. Why? Because while it is my responsibility as well to make sure everything is played right, how will anyone ever prove I personally didn't know? Why should I be nice to someone when all they'll do is wait for me to make a mistake and capitalize on it or just simply take a cheap win when they can? Especially with the direction the game is heading or what it already has become. A bunch of newcomers netdeck a solid and easy to play list like ReshiPhlosion or ZTPS, and auto pilot it for an easy win against a skillful player who put hours into perfecting their own deck and list. On top of that you add how the whole Championship Points and rating system, and really no one should be surprise on how competitive this game is becoming.

Here are just a couple of examples where I practiced SoTG and where it got me:

Round 1 vs. a parent in a CC down in northern Illinois
I was playing my own rogue of Magmortar/Quagsire back in the Gardy/Gallade format. He was playing a Honchkrow deck. He forgot to lay out his prizes, so I catch it and we call a judge over. It was an instant game lose back then, but I insisted to the judge that I didn't want to win that way, that I would be fine with only taking a prize penalty if it was allowed. The judge agreed and we continued to play the game for one more turn as he proceeded to drawing into a SP. Dark, two PlusPowers and proceeds to KOing my lone Magmortar for the win. The card I drew from the prizes was a Roseanne's Research, which was even more insult to injury. So after losing my first round in a short tournament, I instantly lose any chance of making the top cut.

Round 4 vs. my playtesting buddy from back home, we were both undefeated
We were both playing a weird rogue Flygon Ex D with Latilock, so it was a mirror match. Half way through the game he doesn't recall if he attached an energy or not during one of his turns. I was pretty sure he had, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt since he was my playtesting buddy. That extra energy attachment, ended up costing me the game. Then next round I got paired up against a bad match-up, and didn't have a good start either so I lost that game. Which again ended up costing me another cut top.

These are only a couple of instances where I practiced SoTG, and it got me no where. Sure I was respected as an honorable player, but you can still win and be respected as honest and honorable player. It shouldn't be my responsibility to help my opponent beat me, especially with how the game is played now and how competitive it is, which makes it hard enough to get into top cut and win some Championship Points. I shouldn't have to knock myself out of a tournament because my opponent doesn't know what the cards HE/SHE is playing do.

 

[PokePop]

Chris: You just gave two examples where you went well above what was needed for SotG (talking a judge into reducing your opponent's penalty! and giving your opponent an extra energy attachment) as a rational for allowing game states to be broken now (wrong amounts of damage done and discarding too many energy cards).

What you did was go from being "a pushover" (per the topic title) to swing way over the line to advocating cheating (if you are in fact saying that allowing wrong actions to be taken is OK).

There is a middle ground, you know.

 

[Glumanda]

So, the SotG question is: Do you allow him to keep him misunderstanding and not attack, or do you speak up and say, "You know, that doesn't apply to your evolved Wigglytuff"?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, he showed the card to the opponent to read it. If the opponent reads it wrong, it is his problem, not mine. And giving the opponent the card to read instead of stating what it does is not necessarily an unfair action but an action to protect yourself from a "He said, she said"-sitation, where you stated it correctly and the opponent (because he did not get it correctly) is saying that you misrepresented the card.

I had one other situation:
I had Holon´s Castform active (draw cards up to the number of delta-pokemon) and my opponent had Mew delta active and copied the attack of Holon´s Castform with a full bench of delta-pokemon. He said "I use your Delta Draw and draw 5 cards." I looked at my Holon´s Castform if it states up to and let him do that. Yes, I knew he could draw 6 cards because his active Mew delta also counts but as Delta Draw says "up to" he is allowed to draw less than that if he announces it beforehand which he did. So his action is absolutely within the rules. I asked him after the match if this was intended and of course it was not. The player was not mad at me or something like this because he realized that this was his fault and his fault alone.
And here is where the fine line is: If my opponent would just say "I use your Delta Draw" without stating how many cards he draws, he MUST draw 6 as soon as he begins to draw and in this case I MUST correct him, if he only draws 5. If I do not and it can be determined that I did not correct the player although I perfectly know that he is doing something against the rules than this can pretty easily seen as Cheating with the appropriate penalty.

So, bottom line for me is: It is not against SotG is you elect to not help your opponent to win the game as long as all his actions are legal. Especially at high-level tournaments this is not be expected. But I for myself always tell my opponents after the match when they do such playing mistakes.

 

[jigglejuice]

Thank you for all the great replies everyone. I apologize to those who believe me in the wrong for even considering allowing these misplays. It wasn't my intention to come off as a bad guy, but like Chris I am highly competitive in every aspect of my life. Can I be faulted for having a competitive instinct, even if I didn't act on it? Now that some time has passed and I have distanced myself from the tournament environment, I will say that I am glad that I followed what I believed was right. It's difficult balancing my competitive spirit with my need to do what's right. I know at some point I may have to sacrifice my helpful nature to make the top cut and further. Just don't know if I'm quite ready to make that sacrifice quite yet.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

I had to jump in on this topic.

In my opinion, it's completely up to the opponent for knowing their own cards and requesting to see an opponent's cards. Though, this doesn't necessarily mean to take advantage of an opponent by any means.

There's a line that must be identified. If an opponent is newer or isn't familiar with a card, that's their own responsibility for them to become familiar with a card. For instance, I played Tentacruel (with Tentavolve) at Regionals recently. I played one match where I attacked following evolution for poison and paralyze. The following turn, I attacked with Tentavolve again (without evolving) and they turned their card in the Paralyze position. I'm a fair player so I informed them that this wasn't how the card worked. Thus going on with the match smoothly and fairly. Of course this hurt me, but I wasn't taking advantage of my opponent to win. This would obviously mean the win wasn't earned legitimately, nor the way the deck was meant to win.

Point being said - if I win a match within fair limits, it falls within the regulations of Spirit of the Game. Though, in Pokepop's example, if the misplay or mistake is on my opponent (whether they misinterpreted the text of a card and misplayed from there) I wouldn't necessarily say it falls short of Spirit of the Game.

As long as you're allowing them and offering them to become familiar with the card, their misinterpretation is their own misplay from a fair-playing standpoint goes. As long as you're not abusing it in a way that would technically be cheating (such as my Tentacruel - Tentavolve example.)

Though, I have to give my input on something else that was brought up by Chriscobi as well - with the Judges being a bit harsh, especially new players in particular. It's quite obvious when a player is new - they're usually slow-playing because they're thinking things through, making frequent mistakes, misplaying constantly, frequently unfamiliar with cards, etc. From my experience, a lot of judges throw the warning flags all over these players when there opponent is completely understanding and 100% okay with it just becoming a more friendly and fun learning experience. This is where I think Spirit of the Game is a bit over the line.

 

[PokePop]

Let me give another example that I have done personally.

I like using cards that most people don't use and try to make them work.
I used to have Legend Maker Absol as my starting Pokemon. It has a Body that says that if Absol is the only Pokemon that I have in play, then my opponent's Basic Pokemon can't attack.
When I flipped over my starter, I never brought it to the opponent's attention that this Body was in play. It was up to them to look at my card, and if they were not familiar with it, to ask to read it. Most players never bothered.
So, they would do a couple of things on their turn, and then attempt to attack.
Now, here is the difference between upholding the integrity of the game (SotG), cheating, and being a pushover.
If I was a pushover, I'd have alerted them to what the card did and a lot of players might have come up with ways around it, or at least altered their play to take it into account.
If I were a cheat, I'd let them proceed with their attack and, in a lot of cases, gotten a free win out of it as they shuffled their hand away, drew cards, or searched their deck for basics or something along those lines.

But I took the path that upheld SotG without being a pushover.
I monitored their play and AS SOON as they either declared their attack or started to act on it without declaring it (as many players do), I would put my hand out and declare, "Stop!" to prevent them from breaking the game state.
So, I did allow them to end their turn without working around my Active, but I would not allow them to break the game state.

That is the line between upholding SotG, being a pushover, and being a cheat.

The problem is that a lot of players, such as Chris above, can't seem to distinguish between allowing your opponent to make errors that don't break the game state vs allowing them to play wrong, break the game state, and take advantage of that broken game state.
There is a huge difference between those two things.
A top player got a game loss at Nationals one year when it was determined that he had allowed the opponent to break game state for advantage.

 

[rokman]

I'm one of those "play to win" players and I couldn't live with myself if I knew my opponent didn't count his damage counters properly or accidentally discarded all energy from a blue fare.

Because I'd know I didn't deserve the win.

 

[InnoceNt]

I'm curious to know if anyone feels the way I do about this.


At a high level, (States, Regs, Nats, Worlds, Cities top cut matches) not making mistakes is a part of high level play. At that level your opponent should be able to catch their own mistakes.

Of course, I have corrected my opponents mistakes at regionals and above, because it's the right thing to do. Being a nice person>winning.

Now, at battle roads, correct your opponent. There are more small-time players there who could use that help.

---------- Post added 12/05/2011 at 04:22 PM ----------

I'm one of those "play to win" players and I couldn't live with myself if I knew my opponent didn't count his damage counters properly or accidentally discarded all energy from a blue fare.

Because I'd know I didn't deserve the win.

But theoretically, don't you deserve it? After all, they made the mistake.

I don't really believe that, but some food for thought.

 

[Ninja]

I'm one of those "play to win" players and I couldn't live with myself if I knew my opponent didn't count his damage counters properly or accidentally discarded all energy from a blue fare.

Because I'd know I didn't deserve the win.

I am the same way. I also would hate myself knowing aftterwards I did something that shouldnt of happened on accident and it won me the game...

when I first saw the thread, my idea was, for instance, allowing someone to take back something, when it is being kind of too competitive like if you hear ur opponent even start to say the active pokemons attack, then you say he went into the battle phase, or when you are too much of a pushover, and the use the attack, then afterwards they realize they forgot to place a pokemon, and you allow them too. usually people realize it is a tourney and that sort of stuff isnt allowed, but sometimes they ask, and being me, I dont like to say no :/
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