The Top 32 limit for Regionals NEEDS to be gotten rid of.

[Raen]

I kind of expected to make a really long post here, but to be honest what I want to say is pretty simple and straightforward:

We absolutely NEED to have the top cut limit of Top 32 at Regionals removed. There is absolutely NO reason to have such a limit in place when Regionals is a two day tournament. Top 64 would only add an extra 75-minutes to day 2, barely worth noting, and would increase the fairness of these tournaments immensely.

Indiana Regionals in the fall was just so frustrating due to this. We have over 350 Masters players, yet with only a Top 32, you had to go 7-2 to cut. If you went 6-3, you essentially were not going to cut. If I remember correctly, 2 or 3 6-3's made the cut. It's easier, currently, to cut at Nationals than Regionals. That's insane.

I had kinda hoped this would change, but from what I've heard from PTOs, the Top 32 limit is still in place for winter Regionals. This is a real shame. It's hurting the fun and the validity of these tournaments. Luck is much more relevant, and it's a lot harder to make the cut now. This really, really needs to change.

I don't expect a change to happen in time for this weekend's Regionals, but I at least hope that TPCi and P!P take note of the desire of players to have Top 64 and make the change for spring Regionals. Let's all make a little bit of (respectful) noise, and get things changed.

 

[Shen]

I don't understand why we don't do flights when events get this large. If there is a severe amount of X-2's missing cut at an event with a capped top cut, I think flighting deserves a look. Not just Regionals, even States. I actually went 6-2 at two states last year and missed cut due to the T16 cap with over 200 players. You need to go X-1 at premier events nowadays. Top cutting is becoming so difficult anymore because of the size of these events. The easiest events to cut are actually Nationals (there has been no cap introduced) and Worlds (no cap that I'm aware of, and the attendance is more controlled). BRs have no cut, Cities are capped at T8, States at T16, Regs at T32.

A top cut (usually) tries to take the top 25% in swiss standings for elimination, rounded down to the nearest power of 2. That would mean cities should have like 32 - 63 players, States 64 - 127, and Regionals 128 - 255. I don't know about most places but wherever I play I have not seen those numbers in years. Per the rules, we can't flight with any less than 64 players... which would work even for cities (Top cut for 64 players is T16, which is the next available top cut size after T8, the cap for cities). I have only ever seen flighting at Nationals. Honest question, I mean I might have no idea what I'm talking about... why is it never employed? It solves top cut issues without significantly increasing the time of the events.

 

[LOLZ]

I don't understand why we don't do flights when events get this large. If there is a severe amount of X-2's missing cut at an event with a capped top cut, I think flighting deserves a look. Not just Regionals, even States. I actually went 6-2 at two states last year and missed cut due to the T16 cap with over 200 players. You need to go X-1 at premier events nowadays. Top cutting is becoming so difficult anymore because of the size of these events. The easiest events to cut are actually Nationals (there has been no cap introduced) and Worlds (no cap that I'm aware of, and the attendance is more controlled). BRs have no cut, Cities are capped at T8, States at T16, Regs at T32.

A top cut (usually) tries to take the top 25% in swiss standings for elimination, rounded down to the nearest power of 2. That would mean cities should have like 32 - 63 players, States 64 - 127, and Regionals 128 - 255. I don't know about most places but wherever I play I have not seen those numbers in years. Per the rules, we can't flight with any less than 64 players... which would work even for cities (Top cut for 64 players is T16, which is the next available top cut size after T8, the cap for cities). I have only ever seen flighting at Nationals. Honest question, I mean I might have no idea what I'm talking about... why is it never employed? It solves top cut issues without significantly increasing the time of the events.

Are you trying to say that doing flights will cause all x-2s to make cut? If you are, can you explain how you came to that assumption.

 

[Shen]

I didn't say all X-2's, and I'm sure there's a way to come to an accurate conclusion of how many will make it without any assumptions: http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=32037

However, there will never be a way to stop all X-2's from missing cut because it's dependent on attendance. There will always be attendances that allow for all X-2's to make it and attendances where a terrible amount of X-2's miss cut. Flights effectively allow for up to double the size of the current capped top cut, meaning more players get in. T8 becomes T16 because there will be two T8's, T16 becomes T32, etc. This means we get closer to 25% of the attendance making cut, and we won't see final pairings several X-2's missing cut that would have otherwise made it had the top cut limit been removed. IMO, it's the fairest way to go. I just don't know if it's the most plausible.

edit: I should clarify that when I said "a severe amount of X-2's missing cut," I meant a significantly higher amount than what you would usually see if there were no cap. In any case, I was calling attention to flighting for allowing a top cut closer to 25% of the attendance, not for allowing more X-2's in. I just think a "severe amount of X-2's missing cut" is one signal (perhaps among others) that flighting should be looked into.

 

[LOLZ]

I didn't say all X-2's, and I'm sure there's a way to come to an accurate conclusion of how many will make it without any assumptions: http://pokegym.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=32037

However, there will never be a way to stop all X-2's from missing cut because it's dependent on attendance. There will always be attendances that allow for all X-2's to make it and attendances where a terrible amount of X-2's miss cut. Flights effectively allow for up to double the size of the current capped top cut, meaning more players get in. T8 becomes T16 because there will be two T8's, T16 becomes T32, etc. This means we get closer to 25% of the attendance making cut, and we won't see final pairings several X-2's missing cut that would have otherwise made it had the top cut limit been removed. IMO, it's the fairest way to go. I just don't know if it's the most plausible.

That is what I figured, you misinterpreted how flights work.

If 2 flights are used at Regionals a Top 32 is not taken from each flight to form a T64. The Top 16 from Flight A and the Top 16 from Flight B are combined to form the capped Top 32.

If 4 flights are used at Regionals a Top 32 is not taken from each flight to form a T128. The Top 8 from each of the 4 Flights are combined to form the capped Top 32.

Using flights is not a loophole to get around the capped Top Cut Size.

 

[Shen]

My apologies. I guess I knew that but didn't think that one out right... I've had this conversation before and forgot my line of reasoning.

So before I get ahead of myself here, I had assumed these caps are in place due to time constraints or for better time management. Flighting would allow for less swiss rounds. Couldn't the extra round(s) be allocated towards top cut match(es), allowing for twice the allowable top cut size? All it takes is one more round of top cut to double its size.

I guess I'd also need to see the math to see when that would work out, one top cut match isn't equal to the time a standard match takes.

 

[LOLZ]

My apologies. I guess I knew that but didn't think that one out right... I've had this conversation before and forgot my line of reasoning.

So before I get ahead of myself here, I had assumed these caps are in place due to time constraints or for better time management. Flighting would allow for less swiss rounds. Couldn't the extra round(s) be allocated towards top cut match(es), allowing for twice the allowable top cut size? All it takes is one more round of top cut to double its size.

I guess I'd also need to see the math to see when that would work out, one top cut match isn't equal to the time a standard match takes.

Flights are not used for Time Management, Flights are used for in the event of Time Constraints. Quote from the Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Operation Procedures. Bolded Important parts related to your question.

3.3.3. Using Flights for Large Events

Few tournaments have more than 64 participants in a single age division. However, those that do can create a situation where the time it takes to operate the event exceeds the venue’s availability. In an effort to help Tournament Organizers finish these events within the real world time constraints of the venue, the use of flights to reduce the number of Swiss rounds in the event may be appropriate.

Flights allow a Tournament Organizer to reduce the total number of Swiss rounds necessary by splitting an age division into randomly assigned groups. Players in each group, or flight, only play against other players in the same group during the Swiss rounds.

Flights should only be used as a last resort. If a Tournament Organizer chooses to flight an event, the minimum number of flights needed to complete the event within the time constraints should be used. To this end, the number of flights per age division can vary, from no flights in one age division to up to 16 flights in another.

Flighting to reduce swiss rounds by 1 (or just doing -1 Swiss round, another time saving tool at a TOs disposal) with the intent to increase the Top Cut size will add time to a tournament, which defeats the purpose of flighting (and doing -1 Swiss round)

 

[Shen]

Well I meant time management as a means to ease time constraints.

To my understanding flighting would allow for dropping an additional swiss round wouldn't it? Either way an increased top cut with flighting and/or -1 swiss round still takes less time.

 

[Mystery Thing]

Flighting allows you to use one less swiss round than you would in a non-flight situation, yes. But as LOLZ said, you can't then add on an extra TC round - not flighting and a T32 would take half an hour(ish) less time than flighting and doing a T64.

 

[Skitty]

Indiana Regionals in the fall was just so frustrating due to this. We have over 350 Masters players, yet with only a Top 32, you had to go 7-2 to cut. If you went 6-3, you essentially were not going to cut. If I remember correctly, 2 or 3 6-3's made the cut. It's easier, currently, to cut at Nationals than Regionals. That's insane.

I don't mean to get off topic, but in my opinion the problem isn't the top cut number, it's the age groups.
You said you had over 350 Masters. But how many Seniors and Juniors did you have? I would assume (based on past events) that there were only about 100-150 in each of those age groups. Am I correct? If the age groups were moved around and there were only about 200 masters then that would make the top 32 cut far more reasonable.

 

[losjackal]

You need to go X-1 at premier events nowadays. Top cutting is becoming so difficult anymore because of the size of these events.

Let's look at the reasons why first. Either Pokémon has gotten much more popular lately where there are a lot more competitors in general, or the events are getting better where they are easier to attend...

Two-day Regionals: okay, that made it easier to attend for some, but maybe harder for others also because of the additional time possibly requied.

Three Regionals dates instead of one: some people had a conflict with a single date, so they can now show up at a different date. And best case scenario everyone from the first date shows up at the subsequent dates, so this could definitely be a strong factor in the increased attendance.

Three States dates instead of two: same as Three Regionals above.

Championship Points instead of ELO for Worlds invitation: players are attending many more tournaments overall, without fear of having a bad day. Also contributing to larger attendance.


All around, I think everyone (players, Tournament Organizers, and The Pokémon Company) would say larger attendances are a good thing. Perhaps Nationals is getting too big for TPC's desires (thus the non-increase in Masters Regionals prize support), and now we can see that States and Regionals top cuts are uncomfortably small for all of the competitive players showing up.


Thanks for bearing with me through all that. Just wanted to put the causes out there to explain the situation as it is today.


Now, based on that, let me ask the community a question: given you have 6 dates in total instead of 3 now to try to get Championship Points at the S/P/T level, is that any kind of balance against the difficulty in making into top cut? Why or why not?

 

[FunnyBear]

All around, I think everyone (players, Tournament Organizers, and The Pokémon Company) would say larger attendances are a good thing. Perhaps Nationals is getting too big for TPC's desires (thus the non-increase in Masters Regionals prize support), and now we can see that States and Regionals top cuts are uncomfortably small for all of the competitive players showing up.

Not so sure here. Its not as if POP is a revenue generating organization. Quite the opposite. The growth in the competitive card game may not be looked at at POP and their bosses the same way that we do.

Now, based on that, let me ask the community a question: given you have 6 dates in total instead of 3 now to try to get Championship Points at the S/P/T level, is that any kind of balance against the difficulty in making into top cut? Why or why not?

Yes and no. We have more shots, but its getting a bit insane. The rise of the number of players has made BRs and Cities extremely competitive even in Juniors and we end up having to go to a dozen each half season as well as a ton of cities.With 3 two day Regionals, Nationals, and Worlds, all of my family's vacations are around Pokemon now. I know lots of parents that are starting to feel quite put upon.

 

[FirestormXVI]

losjackal, I'm really confused as to what any of the conclusions you saw have to do with the issue at hand. It doesn't really matter why the regionals are bigger. What does matter is that there is currently a cap on the Regionals Top Cut which only allows 32 players to play in the single elimination portion of the event even when the threshold for a 64 player top cut is reached. This was a limit implemented due to a lack of time when there were only one day regional events. Regionals are now two days long and do not need such a limit, so the limit should be removed to increase the enjoyability of the events. Opponents Win % is a terrible tie breaker and I'm sure people are sick and tired of having that be such a factor in these high attendance events with top cut caps.

 

[Shen]

Flighting allows you to use one less swiss round than you would in a non-flight situation, yes. But as LOLZ said, you can't then add on an extra TC round - not flighting and a T32 would take half an hour(ish) less time than flighting and doing a T64.

Thanks, that's what I was wondering. I realize it would take less time, but I wasn't sure how much less was desirable.

 

[meganium45]

I can see both sides of this issue.

There is NOTHING worse than being bubbled out with a record that, should by all intents and purposes in a large event (ideally x-2) allow you to continue playing in the top cut.

The second day eases the pain a bit on these events, but the fact that Regionals are NOW matching sizewize what we used to get for Nationals in the early years is simply gawk.

The problem is, frankly, for organizers is we have a VERY REAL space and staff issue for a top cut of this size.

That will be the real limiting factor in my opinion.

Please don't tell me to get more staff. That type of response is less than helpful. It may seem like the practical solution to the problem, but given the ration of staff that Pokemon likes to have watching its top cuts when there are thousands of dollars of prizes on the line, we simply can't have a "Skeleton" crew working with the Top Cut when, at the same time, we are trying to get the Video Game Championship off of the ground.

Vince

 

[losjackal]

losjackal, I'm really confused as to what any of the conclusions you saw have to do with the issue at hand. It doesn't really matter why the regionals are bigger.

But I think it does, because it's not like everything else stayed the same. I believe there are two primary contributing factors:

1. More events that more people can go to
2. Championship Points instead of ELO

Point #1 is why I asked my question: since there are now 6 events instead of 3, isn't it at least a little bit okay that it's harder to make top cut?

Point #2 is a huge thing if you ask me. Before Championship Points, you could have a very positive Swiss record over the course of the tournament season and still end up Top 40. Or, a wicked run at a big event or two. And when players got close to invitation range, they stopped playing at one point. But now, Championship Points reward players who finish the tournaments at the top, and it doesn't hurt to try to win every single tournament you go to. For these players that can consistently rise to the top...isn't it somewhat logical and acceptable that the Top 32 get to play on? (I'm purposely asking "somewhat acceptable" as a counter to the demands of "the Top 32 limit MUST be eliminated!" It's because there's a bigger story here.)


In my opinion, whether Top Cut is inclusive of 32 or 64 masks a subtler problem of resistance dictating where someone ranks among the players with similar record, and that luck of matchups in the first round or two can greatly dictate your resistance for the day. So if I were to demand a stepping-stone change, it would be to compensate players who finish with the same record as #32 with the same number of Championship Points that Place #32 gets. After all, what's the difference? Increased resistance allowed that #32 seed to play an additional match and win or lose. Let's say they lose. Why are they rewarded with more points than player #33?

 

[ShadowGuard]

Indiana Regionals in the fall was just so frustrating due to this. We have over 350 Masters players, yet with only a Top 32, you had to go 7-2 to cut. If you went 6-3, you essentially were not going to cut. If I remember correctly, 2 or 3 6-3's made the cut. It's easier, currently, to cut at Nationals than Regionals. That's insane.

Actually, that's wall I call a good cut, if all 7-2 make it and only a very few 6-3. You need more than 67% win rate to get in, that's fair.

There are City Championships where you whiff cut with 4-1, and at last ECC you could whiff with 6-2. That's 80% and 75% where you do not make cut.
Think of it, you don't make cut with 80% (!) win rate, that's probably more than any player in masters has on average in the current format.

At small tournaments it's even worse. With 31 players in an age division, there are 6-7 with 4-1 or better with 4 of them making the cut. With 15 players in an age division, there are 5 players with 3-1 or better with 2 of them making the cut. If I knew beforehand that a City Championship ends up with 31 masters, I wouldn't even bother going there, cause beeing donked in R1 means you're certainly out of the tournament without even drawing a card.

Best solution would be to add more swiss rounds. Magic the Gathering does this as well, and they have b-o-3 swiss that take more time. There'd be absolutely no problem to implement the option to play additional rounds.

 

[Shen]

This is what I don't understand... if we're able to add more swiss rounds (plural), what's stopping us from adding 1 extra round of top cut?

edit: Besides the current cap, of course. Is it staff issues?

 

[LOLZ]

This is what I don't understand... if we're able to add more swiss rounds (plural), what's stopping us from adding 1 extra round of top cut?

edit: Besides the current cap, of course. Is it staff issues?

Wait, who is adding more Swiss rounds to a tournament? and who said adding swiss rounds were allowed.

 

[pokeMATHter]

With long travel times, particularly in the Western part of the United States a short Sunday is a bonus. You have a good chance to get home at a reasonable hour on Sunday so you can go to work or school on Monday. Extending the top cut by another hour or two or three means another day off work.

Also not all X-2's should make the cut. In a 8 person, three round tournament none of the 1-2 players should make the cut. Even in a 16 player 4 round tournament, the 2-2 players shouldn't make the cut. Certainly the X-3 player in both these scenarios shouldn't make it either.