Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The Top 32 limit for Regionals NEEDS to be gotten rid of.

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That variance in the swiss is just one of the reasons why I advocate more swiss rounds and not bigger top cuts. Increasing the top cut is the wrong way to address variance.

First, false. This is still Pokemon. More Swiss in not guaranteed to decrease the variance. There is a solid conceptual argument that more swiss opens you up to more potential to having those luck loses.

The absolute best way to reduce variance is to play more Bo3. So, if you want to play Bo3 Swiss, with more Swiss rounds and then cut to a smaller top. OK, I might buy that. However, it would be simpler and more effective to just add another round of Top Cut action.

Second, I know you didn't make the win percentage argument (Otaku and Glumanda did), but by increasing the number of Swiss rounds, you directly decrease the win percentage required to make the top cut.

For example, at the Mississippi River Valley Regional you had to have a win percentage of 77.78% to make the cut (7-2). However, if you had added another round, approximately 19 7-3 players would have made the cut. That is a 70% win rate. That is only 3.4 % higher than just moving the cut line to the 64. If you force 11 rounds, you will have approximately 3 7-4 players make the cut, at a 63.6% rate. At that point, you have "cheapened" the top cut when compared to just moving the line to 64 because people with a lower win percentage will make that Top 32 than would have made a nine round Top 64 cut.

Third, you still are missing the point that P!P's own preferred system (evidenced by the guidelines) called for a Top 64 cut this weekend. It was only their external, artificial limit, on their own chosen system, that kept a Top 64 from happening. It is like P!P says, "we like this system and think it is fair... but when event get too big we will cripple our own chosen system from working itself out." You tell me, how does that make sense?

---------- Post added 01/21/2013 at 10:16 AM ----------

Why?

In my opinion, larger top cut is always the way to go in a two-day event. You avoid the typical complaints of "the staff is tired, hungry, and has to go to the bathroom," because you're only adding 75-90 minutes to an already two-day event, which isn't unreasonable. Top-cut, by virtue of the fact that it is best 2/3, is already more skill-based and less luck-reliant than swiss. As has already been discussed, more games decrease random variance.

I'm on your side here Politoed. I just want to make something clear. More games does decrease random variance. However, more games can be achieved in three (4) ways.

1) Add more Bo1 Swiss rounds to the USA system.

2) Convert the current Swiss rounds to Bo3.

3) Add more Top Cut rounds, when the system dictates it should.

4) Combination of the above methods.

No one in North America, that I have talked to, want to convert Swiss to Bo3. So, for practical purposes we have 1 and 3 to choose from.

Now, both decrease variance. However, more Bo3 rounds is better at removing variance than adding another Swiss round, or even adding three more Swiss rounds.

This is true because the Swiss rounds are still Bo1. So, in each of those one to three extra Swiss rounds, you still face the possibility of dead drawing and donks. And, you will take a round loss for one of those things.

In Bo3, you can take a donk/dead draw on game and it does not equal a round loss. You still have two more games to get it together before you add a loss to your total record.
 
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I hate to say it, but I think Top 32 for this event worked pretty well. I have to review the records and figures (how many X-2s missed the cut), but over all it went really well.

That being said, on day 2, we would have had time for a Top 64. Had the official decision been to go to a top 64, it would have been fine by myself and my staff. With VGC going on, we would definitely be there "anyway".

We did hit over 350 masters, so there were certainly the players to warrant a T64 based upon the current standard.

On a separate note, thanks to all players. You made this a GREAT weekend.

Vince
 
We had 390 Masters and only one X-2 missed cut.

I thought that worked out fine. (I was a 5-3 with good enough resistance that I was close to making it to top 64, but I did NOT deserve top 64.)
 
We had 390 Masters and only one X-2 missed cut.

I thought that worked out fine. (I was a 5-3 with good enough resistance that I was close to making it to top 64, but I did NOT deserve top 64.)
We had 389 total players. Around 220 Masters. With 390 Masters, the whiffs become ridiculous.
 
We had 389 total players. Around 220 Masters. With 390 Masters, the whiffs become ridiculous.

Can you explain more?

I am still trying to figure out how much of this is due to needing more players in the top cut... and how much is due to the game going in a direction where you are pretty much guaranteed a loss due to a bad match-up, donk, etc.
 
7-2 should never miss a cut period. It doesn't matter if "only one" missed. It's ridiculous that any missed!
 
I honestly don't know what people are looking at regarding 7/2 whiffing.

All 7/2's made cut in St Louis. One 6/2 whiffed in Orlando.

What regional was this?
 
Less swiss rounds, more top cut.

8 rounds top cut of 32 << 6 rounds top cut of 64

8 rounds and only one of our 6-2's didn't cut though
 
6 / 64 would have something like a dozen 2 losses missing the cut (depending on the number of players)
 
R1 swiss: completely random pairing
R2 swiss : two groups but each with completely random pairing.
R3 swiss: at least there is some sign of a top group developing but if you have been unlucky with the R1 and R2 pairing then R3 may not be your friend either. At a large event a lot of players are going to have been unlucky in R1 and R2

It takes a lot of swiss rounds before the early swiss round pairing luck is suppressed.

In general T32s work well as the X-1s are going to make the cut and there are a lot of spots for X-2s. That isn't the case with T8s and even T16s have a nasty habit of rejecting a lot of X-2s. It is wrong to conclude that a T64 would be better than a T32 just because usually a T32 is better than a T16. its the relationship between the binomial distribution (Pascal's triangle) and number of rounds that makes a T32 work.

Pokemon is a non-transitive game, yet the premise behind the power of two swiss rounds is that it is. The best way to reduce the worst impact of this non-transitive behaviour is to get more data from the swiss rounds: more data = more results = more swiss rounds.

If you believe that there is a lot of luck in pokemon that expresses itself as game outcomes then that is the same as saying that a number of your wins and losses at the end of swiss was down to luck. The same as saying that that the W-L record isn't an ideal indicator. So how do you minimise the noise due to luck in the results from the swiss rounds? How do you make the W-L record a better indicator? Easy; add more swiss rounds!. A bigger cut does nothing to minismise the randomness from the swiss. It just lets more if it through to the cut.

If you must put more time into the Top Cut then go from T32 best of three to T32 best of 5.
 
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7-2 should never miss a cut period. It doesn't matter if "only one" missed. It's ridiculous that any missed!

Why shouldn't they?

No, really; I want to know.

The only thing I can think of for having two losses not be enough to knock you out of the competition is a problem more with the card pool/state of the game than the tournament structure itself... at least if we are being realistic about what the tournament structure can accommodate.

Obviously, in an ideal world we'd be playing at least best two of three matches... round robin style to determine the winner. Can't do that. So when someone is trying to explain this to someone like me, remember that you need to be detailed.

I can see wanting X-1 to make it; luck is luck, and it is an unavoidable part of the TCG (as it is in most any TCG). The rest? It feels like more a problem with how the game itself has been unfolding.
 
Why shouldn't they?

No, really; I want to know.

People feel that they shouldn't. They believe that certain results 'deserve' top cut. A lot of it is based on what players have been used to, but there's no real objective reason for it. YGO SJCs used to cut to Top 8 regardless of how many hundreds of players showed up.

As long as the cut is known in advance, I don't have any complaints. You know what you've got to do, and there will always be hard luck stories no matter what (whiffing on resistance, being paired down, donks, running into autolosses etc etc).
 
Just chiming in with some thoughts....

Donks and autolosses are part of the card game IMO. You can make deck construction choices to counteract that.

Whiffing on resistance and being paired down are side effects of the tournament structure and operation. The engineer in me thinks that could be better somehow.
 
A quick note regarding why people feel like 7-2s should make cut (or 6-2s for that matter), as I am on my phone so this can't be long.

I think the feeling comes out of a want for equality. Honestly, if 7-2s all make it and no 6-3s, I think that's a fantastic cut and the system did its job. All players who won the same number of games now have a chance at the title, and those who have done better get to face (ideally) lower caliber players: having a slightly higher chance. Similarly, if all X-1s make it and no X-2s, I feel as if that cut would be pretty good too, although the want for more players in cut than just the 7-1s or 8-1s certainly exists: who doesn't want a better chance to win the tourney?

For me at least, the desire for X-2s to make cut is the same desire for resistance to not matter for final placement at a BR. Just has to do with the same records getting similar rewards (although tiered by seeding) and having the luck of initial random pairings matter as little as possible.

Woops, longer than I expected!
 
OR regs had about 18 or so X-2s and only 1 missed cut. To me, i don't see a need for completely record based top cut system. However, i do believe that anyone who whiffs cut with a record equalling those who made it, CP should be awarded. Going 7-2 at a Regionals with nothing to show because you played a theme deck round 1 who went 1-8 with a bye doesn't seem right. However, the system has to recognize that going 0-2 and winning the next 7 games against much worse opponenets isn't the same as 7-0ing swiss and then losing 2. I say give them points equal to top 32's. Which is what, 10 or 20 points? I don't see anyone being negatively affected by that.
 
I'd like to think of the situation like this.

Last year each flight at Nationals was in the 256 to 512 person range, which gives a T64, which is then combined with the other flight to get T128. Given that many regionals this year were in the same range, why should players who are 6-3 at Nats make cut but players who are 6-3 and the exact same place at regionals not? Both tournaments went 9 rounds, both have players who use starter deck type decks that wreck resistance, both are filled with high caliber players. What exactly is it that makes it ok to go 6-3 at Nats and make cut but doesn't allow for going 6-3 (or even 7-2) at regionals and make cut?
 
^^ Because there are 3 distinct Regionals dates, spread out through the year, to attempt to end up in the T32, whereas only 1 Nationals where people are playing off in a final event. This last event should arguably be more inclusive.

(Not saying that totally justifies the T32 given the Regionals attendances you cite, but it's a notable difference.)
 
For the record, there were no X-2 players that missed the cut in St. Louis.

It was a "perfect cut" in that all the X-2 players made it in, and no X-3 players made it in.

Doesn't happen often, but certainly did here.

That being said, we could have done a T64, as we had time at the end of the top cuts before we were completely done.

I always have advocated for larger top cuts, especially for the younger divisions, as I feel it is a GREAT experience for a player to play in a top cut enviornment.

Vince
 
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