Tiers, anyone?
- Thread starter chriscobi634
- Start date
Arcanine is an interesting tech, agreed. Though to have him as a supporting attacker with Blissey is pretty lol. Sure, you're doing a nice amount, but after that first attack you're pretty much a free prize for nearly anything to ko next turn, which determines the outcome of any match. All in all, I'd dare say I'd rather see Blissey/Weavile instead of RK9. Overall though lone blissey stands the best in my opinion.
Bannette isn't just a card that can beat up on GG whenever it wants, it's a card that can setup asap with quick 80's every turn in some cases. It's no exaggeration to say it will see even more at Regionals and Nationals because of its good matchups. Heck, a decent list given a decent start has momentum enough to take down Maggy.
chriscobi634
New Member
I've seen it do well with Blissey. Top 4 at Rockford CC, I believe played by M. Liesky, and Top 4 at WI states played in a very bad list by a local. That still managed to take 1 game from a good G/G, in Top 4.
What are some accurate numbers in the match-up between Tsunami Vs. G/G. I would really like to know because I have yet to have a "good" game vs. that deck, and I've played it like 10 times. About 4 of the games. I've had bad prizes, either 2 Magmites prized, or a 1/1 of Delcatty/Magneton or the tech for the match-up. The other 3 games, I've had horrible starting hands that would look something like this, energy, energy, energy, totodile, croconaw, delcatty, stadium. Then I don't top deck anything. Then the other 3 they have gotten a T2 or T3 Gardy lock on me with Dusknoir on the bench.
So in all those match-ups I haven't really had the feel for what the match-up should look like. Which is very upsetting to me.
Yet another game, 2 Gators prized. I seriously feel like burning all cards in that deck
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ColdCoates90
Active Member
Using Arcanine to attack is just a suicidal move. In my testing with it a while back it rarely came out, and when it did it immediately got koed and I lost alot of energy I had built up.
That's why you use Sitrus Berr... Oops, nevermind... :frown:
chriscobi634
New Member
maybe on SSBB, not here. sorry.
SLOW DECK
New Member
Tier 1
GG Varients
Magmotar Varients
Tier 2
Good Players with Banette
Good Players with Hurricane
Good Players with META-GAME red face paint
Tier 3
The rest
The only thing that raises any decks above GG or Mag is a good player who get's favorable metagame match ups. Avg players just don't have the ability to get past the GG and Mag combo.
GG Varients
Magmotar Varients
Tier 2
Good Players with Banette
Good Players with Hurricane
Good Players with META-GAME red face paint
Tier 3
The rest
The only thing that raises any decks above GG or Mag is a good player who get's favorable metagame match ups. Avg players just don't have the ability to get past the GG and Mag combo.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
RE Peter/~Flygon~:
"...Banette would win the matchup just cause it can kill ure draw supply"
Please elaborate: which Banette variant kills my draw supply?
"...and lock in a beach if possible."
Fair point, but that "if possible" is a big "if."
Basically, it comes down to who can score OHKO's easier. While Banette typically gets out a bit faster, Ape doesn't have trouble rebounding-and is far less likely to get OHKO'd back.
"Its a way easier matchup than Magmortar and that matchup is 40/60 to 45/55 in Mortars favor."
That I can agree with, but I can't agree with those numbers 'cause they're awfully generous. I'm a giant Banette fan, but I'm still willing to admit that its Mortar matchup is somewhat trashy. It does have a stronger time against Ape, though.
"...Banette would win the matchup just cause it can kill ure draw supply"
Please elaborate: which Banette variant kills my draw supply?
"...and lock in a beach if possible."
Fair point, but that "if possible" is a big "if."
Basically, it comes down to who can score OHKO's easier. While Banette typically gets out a bit faster, Ape doesn't have trouble rebounding-and is far less likely to get OHKO'd back.
"Its a way easier matchup than Magmortar and that matchup is 40/60 to 45/55 in Mortars favor."
That I can agree with, but I can't agree with those numbers 'cause they're awfully generous. I'm a giant Banette fan, but I'm still willing to admit that its Mortar matchup is somewhat trashy. It does have a stronger time against Ape, though.
ToysRUsKid
Active Member
Actually, in Stewie's universe. Its 80/20 over mag.
~`Flygon`~
New Member
Cyrus: Speed Ban can kill draw since it plays more Cessations and Battle Frontier.Most decks now only have 2 windstorms at most,no teched Tauros so it can be locked just by you not drawing into them.
Banette dosent need to really OHKO Ape,warp can OHKO Delcatty/Delcatty Ex if u play it mid/late game. Ape can recover,but not the same Magmortar,plus since ape cant Snipe,its not as effective as beating Banette as Mortar can.
Banette can beat Magmortar,its not that bad of a matchup if u know when to play warps and Wager at the right time.Those numbers are from my testing.
Banette dosent need to really OHKO Ape,warp can OHKO Delcatty/Delcatty Ex if u play it mid/late game. Ape can recover,but not the same Magmortar,plus since ape cant Snipe,its not as effective as beating Banette as Mortar can.
Banette can beat Magmortar,its not that bad of a matchup if u know when to play warps and Wager at the right time.Those numbers are from my testing.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
"...can kill draw since it plays more Cessations and Battle Frontier"
Can it kill Catty draw? Yes, but I think, though, that a proper Ape list would be running enough draw to balance this issue out. No Tauros seems a bit wacky, since it's so good in Infernape these days.
I also think that you overrate Warp Point's effectiveness v. Infernape. Plus, while you're scoring easy KO's on do-nothing cards, Infernape is actively charging at your main attackers. Even a good Claydol list stands a chance of not getting everything it needs to handle such an instance.
Everything from "Ape can recover..." to "...Mortar can" I completely agree with. I also agree that the Mortar matchup isn't AS bad as many make it out to be...But it's still pretty weak.
Can it kill Catty draw? Yes, but I think, though, that a proper Ape list would be running enough draw to balance this issue out. No Tauros seems a bit wacky, since it's so good in Infernape these days.
I also think that you overrate Warp Point's effectiveness v. Infernape. Plus, while you're scoring easy KO's on do-nothing cards, Infernape is actively charging at your main attackers. Even a good Claydol list stands a chance of not getting everything it needs to handle such an instance.
Everything from "Ape can recover..." to "...Mortar can" I completely agree with. I also agree that the Mortar matchup isn't AS bad as many make it out to be...But it's still pretty weak.
~`Flygon`~
New Member
Ape draw cards will be copycat-tvr-maybe stevens or feclity.Wagder would kill that if Frontier is locked or cessation meaning just Banette running rampant.
Warp Point is what makes and breaks the game with Banette,Im only ratting it on how effective it is.Thats how u beat magmortar,warp,thats how u get throguh Ape,warps,If Banette gets a prize lead on Ape,its not gonna recover quickly I know this for a fact.
This is just me tho,I can show u better than I cann tell u.
Warp Point is what makes and breaks the game with Banette,Im only ratting it on how effective it is.Thats how u beat magmortar,warp,thats how u get throguh Ape,warps,If Banette gets a prize lead on Ape,its not gonna recover quickly I know this for a fact.
This is just me tho,I can show u better than I cann tell u.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
K, a few things:
-Copycat and Steven are just flat-out good draw to hit after a lost Wager...And the odds of getting them aren't that astronomically low.
-You are assuming that A) they'll have no setup by the time you bf/wager, and B) they'll lose the Wager...If they WIN Wager, then Banette's odds of winning go down the tube, Claydol or not.
I'm lost on why you put so much stock on Warp Point. It's great, but if you have two Infernape in play, then doesn't that "rush" strategy falter?
~`Flygon`~
New Member
K to counter:
If ure playing 3-4 Wadger in the deck,its not hard to use it VERY early in the game,if Banette wins the wadger,then its chances go UP,early game is when its most effective.U Lose,then it goes down,but Claydol on the field,its the same,if not then yes its down.
It dosent matter really 2 Apes are on the field,Pluspowers/Charms will help u get the Ko,since CLaydol and Fishing engine is in the deck,the deck is basicially trainers and nrg,mostly trainers,more chances of getting them with Claydol and Lunatone.
I put so much on warp,cuz if u see a Banette/Magmortar game,the best chance to kil setup or win is in Warp Point and the Speed.Only reason,and u can ask Jokerboi how much it helped him,its a game winning card.
