Tropical Beach is good for the game...however the price tag is not.

[vaporeon]

Here's what it comes down to for me (as a PokéMom). My son either earned Tropical Beach with an invitation to Worlds (which requires dedication and a certain amount of $$ from our family budget), OR he earns the money to purchase it. My son is a competitive player - he has earned (and I do mean earned) his invitation for the past three years. He deserves to gain a benefit from his years of practice, money spent in buying or trading for cards, and travel. Why should someone who decides to join the game *today*, have the same benefit as my son who has been practicing and paying for the past three years? My son plays at a COMPETITIVE level. This is NOT AYSO Pokémon. If it was, I would agree with the level playing field for all, no matter when they joined the game.

The other way to get a Tropical Beach is by volunteering. Not all of us with Tropical Beaches fall into the "elite" category. I earned a Tropical Beach myself at Worlds by volunteering for eight hours since I have no shot at qualifying. Again, for me, it comes down to what you can give back to the game, instead of what the game can give to you.

Now I have a problem with this statement. Many of us are competitive players, Worlds qualifier or not. Many of us competitive players know that a group of players who has an advantages over others via card pool will unbalance the tournament environment. We saw this with the Shiny Rayquaza when it was released. Many of us also can't get to worlds to do anything there but because you and your son happened to be able to go, it does not mean you have a right of passage. Beach is now affecting the game since the Catcher errata. This is now a issue we all as players need to look into.

ALL players who wish to be competitive need to be on the same competitive edge, not just the ones who won invites.

 

[losjackal]

That's an interesting premise, vaporeon. You're advancing the discussion beyond that every new player needs access to the card, to where competitive players should have access to the card, for the advantage it provides in deck building and choice of deck to play.

So, why shouldn't players have a relative advantage over each other for some reason? Jason K. has an advantage over everyone right now in that he doesn't need to do anything this year to compete in Worlds next year. If that's a stretch, we could look at the Regionals winners who get R1 and R2 byes at Nationals….that's definitely an advantage. Why is earning a playable promo card so different?

 

[vaporeon]

That's an interesting premise, vaporeon. You're advancing the discussion beyond that every new player needs access to the card, to where competitive players should have access to the card, for the advantage it provides in deck building and choice of deck to play.

So, why shouldn't players have a relative advantage over each other for some reason? Jason K. has an advantage over everyone right now in that he doesn't need to do anything this year to compete in Worlds next year. If that's a stretch, we could look at the Regionals winners who get R1 and R2 byes at Nationals….that's definitely an advantage. Why is earning a playable promo card so different?

Well, it was a stretch. No player should have a card pool advantage over another.

 

[thepokemonnetwork100]

why not? card games already have it built in with rarity systems

 

[vaporeon]

why not? card games already have it built in with rarity systems

Every player has access to the same card pool through booster packs and promos. Beach is a card not within a rarity system or accessible promo. No player show have a card pool advantage over another.

 

[Mystery Thing]

The other point that should be made is that there is a perception (at least somewhat deserved in my opinion*) that the card is a "slip-up" and the creators underestimated its potential, believing it to be of little competitive worth.

*Without knowing the full story it's hard to say how deserved. I'd love to know if this was cut from a set or created on its own.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Considering the relative uselessness of every other Worlds promo (with the possible arguable exception of Tropical Tidal Wave, depending on the format at the time), I think whoever came up with the text for Beach had no idea just how good it was going to be. I don't know if that's lack of foresight into what cards were coming in the future (unlikely) or just a total lack of testing (more likely), I would assume its existence was ultimately an unforeseen accident.

(On that note, using Tropical Tidal Wave against a Tool Drop deck would be HILARIOUS.)

 

[losjackal]

"Random statement that support TPCI"

Jay, it's more about supporting reality, and decisions that have already been made. Until we can make a persuasive enough argument one way or another, it is what it is. Maybe it can change (and certainly news like this from Japan helps), in any possible situation not everyone is going to be happy all of the time. So it helps to talk through the issue and come up with the best solution, if one is necessary.

By your apparently sarcastic statement above, are you condemning TPCi's efforts regarding Tropical Beach now? Considering you walked away from Hawaii with 1 player card, 2 Top 32's, 2 Top 16's, 2 Quarterfinalist, and 2 Semifinalist stamped Beaches…I really don't know what to think.

 

[Envoyofduels]

How about people stop complaining about beach.

Simply this:
Ur opponent beaches
U N.
Then u beach.


Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[Salamencetrainer34]

They banned Trop beach and champ festival in japan. Is this a new step in the right direction?

 

[King Piplup]

Tropical Beach has not been banned from Japanese Organized Play.

Tropical Beach has been banned from the two "Battle Festivals" (Carnival is a more direct translation) that are taking place in December.

Precedent tells us TPCI sets our format, not PCJ. (See: Conflicting rotations)

PCJ has yet to outright ban Tropical Beach.

Even if PCJ does ban Tropical Beach there is no automatic correlation that means TPCI will do the same.

PCJ seems to be trying out the concept at these Battle Festivals.

There are far less Japanese Tropical Beach in circulation than there are any other language, especially English.

/facts

As far as my opinion on banning goes, I don't support it at all. I'd settle for a reprint as a promo, but banning just isn't a good precedent to set.

 

[FunnyBear]

Every player has access to the same card pool through booster packs and promos. Beach is a card not within a rarity system or accessible promo. No player show have a card pool advantage over another.

Why not? That's just your unsupported opinion. There are plenty of players that can't afford to build a $200 deck either or travel to tournaments. Why aren't you complaining about the inaccessibility of competitive Pokemon to the inner city youth that can't afford to buy lots of packs? Its no different than anything else in this world. Some people are going to have more resources that will put them at a competitive advantage in anything at life.

 

[Otaku]

Elite players deserve the rewards that come with being elite. They earned it. Do you have a problem with people that earned a trip to Nats when you didn't?

I have a problem with people taking two unlike situations and treating them as the same thing, FunnyBear.

Earning an invitation to a tournament where the goal of the event is to (as best as the game system allows) weed out the best player/deck is the purpose of competitive play and I have no issues with it. Rewarding those players with unique exclusive cards that are not available in any other way... of course I have a problem with that.

Competitions often reward champions with benefits for the next season... but that isn't the same as unique, exclusive cards. I keep stating "unique" because for all I care, the-powers-that-be could give away every card released that year to the winners, or even every card ever released. That isn't a problem. The nature of collectible games means that this doesn't compare to other competitions very well. I am unfamiliar with the structure of the National Chess Championship... but do they award extra pieces you can swap out with a piece from your standard chess set? No? Well, that is the best I can come up with in short order for an equivalency.

 

[hinkbert]

While I fall into the camp that I think there should be a reprint or promo of Beach, I think they could also make a different kind of stadium that does something similar. Maybe make a stadium with the call for family effect that ends the turns just like beach. So players with less $ or who are unwilling to purchase a ludicrously priced card at least have some other option that helps with set up without removing the "elite" advantage from having a beach card.

 

[vaporeon]

Why not? That's just your unsupported opinion. There are plenty of players that can't afford to build a $200 deck either or travel to tournaments. Why aren't you complaining about the inaccessibility of competitive Pokemon to the inner city youth that can't afford to buy lots of packs? Its no different than anything else in this world. Some people are going to have more resources that will put them at a competitive advantage in anything at life.

We all here are supporting our opinion. Just because you can afford a 200 dollar deck and travel expensive, does not mean everyone can but this is live. Some people will have more at their disposal then others. However, when it comes to a card pool advantage, I how a out right problem with this. A players competitive edge should come from their skill at the game and not because they have access to a elite card pool and others dont.

The game needs to be fair to everyone.

 

[FunnyBear]

The game needs to be fair to everyone.

Again, that is just your opinion. Most things in life are not fair to everyone and people with more resources have an advantage. There are many people that can't afford to go to the Cities marathons and are at a disadvantage because they can't play in 28 Cities. You want to limit these too? Where do you draw the line? Life isn't fair and picking out the Tropical Beach and making a big example out of it is picking on one straw in a haystack.

Oh, and to answer the question above about the National Chess Championship, I'll answer for the World Chess Championship instead. For decades around the time Bobby Fisher was a big deal, the World Champion set the terms of the Top 2 competition, which invariably was strongly in favor of the Champ, including things like must win by 2 points in a short series and the like.

 

[vaporeon]

Again, that is just your opinion. Most things in life are not fair to everyone and people with more resources have an advantage. There are many people that can't afford to go to the Cities marathons and are at a disadvantage because they can't play in 28 Cities. You want to limit these too? Where do you draw the line? Life isn't fair and picking out the Tropical Beach and making a big example out of it is picking on one straw in a haystack.

Oh, and to answer the question above about the National Chess Championship, I'll answer for the World Chess Championship instead. For decades around the time Bobby Fisher was a big deal, the World Champion set the terms of the Top 2 competition, which invariably was strongly in favor of the Champ, including things like must win by 2 points in a short series and the like.

Pokemon is not life. Not being able to play at 28 cities does not put many of us at a competitive advantage if at any at all. Beach is not fair anymore because it now directly affects the game and deck choice since catchers errata. Players with beach now have deck choice advantage over others and the barrier is that 750 dollar price tag for beaches.

I just cant get behind peoples reasoning for not wanting a game to be fair for everyone. This is the problem with America today and its people wanting unfair advantages. Sure its life and all and I enjoy my advantages I have over others like many of us do, however this does not mean we cant make the game we all share fair for everyone.

 

[Suitch]

Okay guys, you are missing a big point here: promos, no matter their playability, nor value, should NOT be exclusive to the event or product they were distributed for. The advantage gained by being good enough to earn promos is that you are good enough to earn promos. All promotional cards should be released in a booster set to promote the playability of the game as a whole. The currently most successful trading card game, Magic: the Gathering, has promotional cards as well, but they are all available in a set -- they have alternate art, or a stamp, or both. It is a successful game because all players, new or old or experienced or inexperienced, have equal access to every currently legal card.

Tropical Beach is hazardous to the competitive environment of the game because there are less players who feel they can play competitively. TPCi does not benefit in the slightest from the cards current price on the secondary market, and it is in fact hurt by the loss of players at competitions. That being said, Tropical Beach as a card is not the culprit, nor the problem; the current policy on printing some cards that are not released in booster sets as promotional cards only accessible through blister packs, tournaments, leagues, or otherwise, is damaging to the continued vitality of the Pokemon Trading Card Game. Promotional cards should be restricted to reprints with either a stamp, an alternate artwork or design, or a combination of the two.

Also, since banishment was discussed briefly: Tropical Beach is a prime example of demand over value. As a game, the Pokemon TCG is hardly affected as a whole by one player playing Tropical Beach and the other not. A card is only considered to be banned if it is detrimental to the state of a game to the point that the player who plays it has an outstanding advantage, or the opposing play has an outstanding disadvantage. Tropical beach, as a whole, is fair for both players. The demand for a ban is ungrounded in gameplay, but is in fact grounded in the belief that it is too disproportionately over-priced compared to other Modified-Legal staples. While this may be true, it will only solve this one case, leaving the opportunity for another promotional product to achieve the same undesirable price.

I argue not for or against Tropical Beach being reprinted(although I do believe it should be), but against the practice of exclusive promotional cards as a whole. Cards do not need to be exclusive to be valuable as a promo, just look at the promo Rare Candy from HGSS.

 

[losjackal]

Suitch, good post. It seems the entire problem here is that Tropical Beach is too darn playable. I don't know if it was consciously designed to be, given that previous trophy cards were less than stellar for competitive play. But here we are. What was a pretty good thing all this time (a playable stadium!) that was reasonably affordable earlier, has arguably gotten out of control.

I do take exception with these statements though:

TPCi does not benefit in the slightest from the cards current price on the secondary market, and it is in fact hurt by the loss of players at competitions.

...the current policy on printing some cards that are not released in booster sets as promotional cards only accessible through blister packs, tournaments, leagues, or otherwise, is damaging to the continued vitality of the Pokemon Trading Card Game.

Attendance is Regionals is up. That means there is no impetus to force a change because of a supposed player loss.

Regarding the vitality of the Pokémon Trading Card Game, that product exists without organized play, and while I have no data to draw upon, I would suspect it is doing fine. Moreover, the general population buying Pokémon Trading Card Game booster packs is practically unaffected by this Tropical Beach issue.

So by both measures…Organized Play attendance is up, and presuming product selling in stores is doing just fine, there's no reason for a change.


By all means, let's see how tournaments start to go with the new X/Y rules….some League Challenges, some Cities. But we need more persuasive arguments if the majority wants a change.

 

[Jaeger]

your ignoring the fact that the November 8th rulings make Beach better.

 

[Aron*]

Pokemon is not life. Not being able to play at 28 cities does not put many of us at a competitive advantage if at any at all. Beach is not fair anymore because it now directly affects the game and deck choice since catchers errata. Players with beach now have deck choice advantage over others and the barrier is that 750 dollar price tag for beaches.

In my area we get 4 cities within a 3 hour drive. No master has ever got a Cp/ELO invite ever. It puts us a a severe disadvantage.

Regionals this year was was dominated with decks that didn't use beach. I havent done any testing of the new format yet but im sure that come winter regionals there will be 1-2 teir one decks that dont use beach. If you cant get acess to beach then play one of those 2 decks.

When i played Yu-Gi-Oh when DaD came out, either poeple would play decks with him or they would find other decks that didnt. If you dont have beaches just play a diferent deck.