US Prerelease prize structure change

[Prof Clay]

Okay, thats cool Poke_dad. It does favor the kids alot. But, as you know, the biggest age group is the 15+ or I am pretty sure it is. Sure, the 10- are the future 11-14, and the 11-14 are the future 15+. And sure, little kids bring in the most money. But I don't see a difference between kids with parent's money and teens/adults that have a job. If anything, the teens with jobs are much more likely to go out and buy boxes of cards, and bigger items. And the teens/adults are more likely to travel across their state to go to events. So why limit the teens/adults that do travel to various places sot hat they can earn some packs in which they can't afford to begin with. I mean, people go to pre-releases for the deal. You get 6 packs for $15, added on, the various packs you can earn for your place. So you could earn anywhere from 6 packs for $15 to 42 packs for $15.

I just feel that sure, kids are helped out, given prizes so they keep interest, but at the same time, the people that spend hundreds of dollars and buy boxes ontop of boxes, are squashed in their place.

People who buy boxes are still going to buy boxes. And yes currently the 15+ age group is the largest at tournaments, but realize that is mainly due to their ability to travel on their own to such events. I wonder how much longer my daughter is going to stick with it and she is 10. I don't see her wanting to quit soon, but in 1 or 2 years its most likely going to happen. During that time I would like to see the state of the game larger every year .

Also you state that they have zero chance of winning more than 10 packs. If more people are at the prerelease, the TO's are better able to afford greater prize support. Its the main company that is only providing support as reported. The TO's can increase the prizes based upon their own finances and desires to add to the pot

And for those of you who think a trophy blows chunks as a prize... look at the 10- kids eyes glow when he/she receives theirs..especially if its the 1st time they have received such an award. You'll see why they are giving them out.

poke_dad

 

[meganium45]

Man Clay, I was about to leave another response, but you have stated it clearly....

Gotta Love Memphis....

1st place still gets a box....you can quote me on that....

It comes down to the individual PTOs being willing to creatively work this out.

We will, give us PTOs credit, we are a bright group who know how to throw events, ask anyone who was at ANY of the Stadium Challenges, which were not run by PUI, but were run by PTOs banding together to make great events great!

We, the PTOs have heard your cry - give us a pack incentive to win.

It is not necessarily PUIs job at this point - they have provided what they are going to provide.

The PTOs need to do the best they can to keep THEIR player base happy.

Trust me, we are going to Rock this first International PreRelease!

M45

 

[Pokeplayer]

I for one would like to second what M45 has said.....PTOs will do what it takes to keep their player base happy

We are creative individuals that will make the events fun for all..........

I will be talking with my player base next week at league (can't this weekend due to camping trip)

I need to talk with some other PTOs also....

 

[bulbasnore]

And yes currently the 15+ age group is the largest at tournaments, but realize that is mainly due to their ability to travel on their own to such events. I wonder how much longer my daughter is going to stick with it and she is 10. I don't see her wanting to quit soon, but in 1 or 2 years its most likely going to happen. During that time I would like to see the state of the game larger every year.

I'm not sweating the loss of the box prizes. I'm sorry if any one feels bad, but if someone quits b/c they have no chance to take a box... [do the math # packs from working 5 hours >>>>>> #packs from forfeiting 5x]

Its been a while since I've had a 10- player; my 12 yo is my least active player. Maybe Taylor will hang 'em up when she is 12. Or, she could continue for a long time. My 17 yo daughter is, a busy HS Sr who insisted (my pleasure) on travelling with me to WCSC & the recent pre-releases (spent her own money for admission). She is not as competitive as my son & his buddies, but LOVES to play big events.

Talking to my son (15) about his attitude and his friend's toward the new prize structure -- he will still want to go as will his friends ('assuredly'). He's come in 2nd (18 packs) and 3rd (9?). His friends have all finished 'in the money', at least once, some incl. 1st. For these boys its a social occsaion, I think. A chance to hang out, compete and laugh.

The 15+ is a more diverse group than some realize. They often DO NOT have the ability to travel on their own. OTOH, some are fully employed adults, college students, etc. who do.

I HOPE no one is writing off this group as expendable. They BRING the younger ones through mentoring, emulation or transportation. Without the 15+ you LOSE a chunk of your 10- and more of your 11-14. That was the WotC executive-level fatal mistake.

 

[Lugias_Realm]

The majority of the responses concerning this topic I find mind blowing. Maybe it's just me but I thought the idea was to try and strengthen the game and make it appealing to as many as possible???
From what I have read it sounds like a bunch of sniffling cry babies who have taken the approach that if the game doesn't do exactly what they want it too then they'll just take their ball and go home, WELL SEE YA!!
The game and what PUI is doing is evolving, and in my opinion evolving for the good of all. Compared to years past there is so much more being offered to the Pokemon players and I think they have only scratched the surface as far as things to come. When something can be changed that will benefit other parts of the program then to me it's a no brainer, you do what is needed to move forward and make the game more appealing to current players and those who have yet to come on board. Think about it, to keep seeing the same group of players raking in the top prizes at every event you go to can be a little frustrating. Now use the same scenario with players just starting up and new to the whole Pre-Release scene and it probably won't take to much time for them to look elsewhere. Everyone enjoys taking home the top prize, opening all those packs, and getting all the cards you need for the new deck. I just think that it would be a lot better to see everyone getting to go home open some packs, find some deck cards and probably leave the tourney with a better feeling then if they had left with basically nothing as is the case more often then not with the old system.
PUI has brought a lot to the table in such a short amount of time and with that came changes and there will undoubtably be more to come. I think that for those of you who seem to have taken this as some kind of slap in the face then so be it, it is not about just you but about everyone.

 

[Mystery Thing]

As ech said, there are the smaller markets that will be really, just flat out smashed to bits because of this. We went to the same store, and it's around a 7-7.5 hour round trip to get there. but the gas money, food money, etc was worth it for the chance of winning a box. At least the POSSIBILITY was there, even if I don't win that box (and I haven't more often than I have in the tiny 15+ division there). But when I know for sure that I'll be spending $30 entry fee for EXACTLY 10 packs, well.. When you tack on gas and food money, it divides out to between $8 and $9 per pack of cards. Nobody in their right mind would drive 7-7.5 hours in a day so that they can essentially buy 10 packs for double retail. If I were to take the gas/food/entry money, by throwing another $10-$15 on it, I could just buy a box of cards of the set when it comes out here. And in talking to another player that had been attending the store for tournies, it's just not worth it anymore. So this store is losing two of the top three constructed (yes, different format, but it shows the skill level) players in the 15+.

As for bringing in new people for this place, don't count on it. Half of the attendees to 90% of their tournies, as far as I know, are not from the same city. We all went there because it was the only option.

Will I still make the trip up there for constructed stuff like CC/GC/PC if they still get them? I don't know. When you get thrashed in both of the last PRs, and walk away with 10-15 packs anyways, well.. I can't make a solid deck out of anything post Ex: Dragon now. I could maybe squeeze a TMTA deck together, but it'd be pushing it.


Yeah, the game is supposed to be fun and that's why we're supposed to play. But seriously... Paying $8-$9 per pack of cards is nothing short of idiocy. I'd rather not have to get up at 6:00 in the morning, and then just drive to the store here and buy myself a box. Yeah, I'm depriving myself of the tourney, but I would rather deprive myself of 10 packs + 7+ hours of driving + $90-$100 than deprive myself of a chance for a box down to a chance for 10 packs + 7+ hours of driving + $90-$100. It's all about the POSSIBLITY of winning something big.

Numercially, whenever I don't get the box at PRs I am technically wasting money. But at least the possiblity for a box and the competition for a box was there. But when you know that no matter how amazingly well or how disgustingly pathetic you do, you're going to get exactly 10 packs.. Where is the motivation to a) do well, and b) even go at all?


And as for those that would say that I'm being a baby and not supporting the game - No, what I'm not supporting is a waste of a day and a waste of $100, all for so few packs that the odds of getting enough of the same cards to use in a deck is astronomical. If I were to buy a box and save me the time, I a) support the game by buying a full box, b) give myself a much better chance at getting sufficient duplicates to make a deck out of it, and c) save my butt the stress of 7 hours driving.

 

[SteveP]

I "smirk" at those who say they won't travel to pre-releases anymore. YEAH!! :clap: This PROVES my theory that players ONLY travel to other locations because they want to win lots of boosters, despite their claims that they travel mostly to "meet" friends.

"Where's my box?" Why is it that some people think they DESERVE a box (or a chance to win a box) just because they travel? Welfare cases, you are!

 

[SteveP]

Now that it is approved, I will just say it Chris - the winner of each division in Memphis will still get a full box of cards. Everyone will be guaranteed at least the 4 bonus packs plus the two pop id packs.

So if you are going to travel, come on down....Tentative date - Saturday November 6th.

M45

IMO, it's not a good idea to "side-step" PUI's recommendation, espeically if the PTO is covering the additional expense to award a box to 1st place. Now, if some "outsider" is donating the product, then I don't see a problem.

M45, I'm amazed that PUI approved this. It basically ignores this new prize-payout guideline.

 

[GymLeaderPhil]

IMO, it's not a good idea to "side-step" PUI's recommendation, espeically if the PTO is covering the additional expense to award a box to 1st place. Now, if some "outsider" is donating the product, then I don't see a problem.

M45, I'm amazed that PUI approved this. It basically ignores this new prize-payout guideline.

Well PUI is a pratical organization and if a PTO or PTOs are willing to improve something, that the people like, I imagine their suggestions will hold some weight. But maybe not to enough to sway the higher ups from this bad structure. Meg45 is helping his players out and I personally see nothing wrong with it. Don't be hating on someone who is helping the game out for $3 bucks more. Please remember that PTOs have the right to charge up to $20 bucks for attendance. $18 is not bad for what your getting and could possibly get in the higher ranks.

And of course those are prize-payout "guidelines". We all know that guidelines can be broken within reason.
-Phil

 

[Adv1sor]

Since you both seem more interested in being public about this kind of stuff, why don't we ask the rest of the PTOs how they feel we respond to emails, eh?

I'm not a PTO, I'm just a TO and that of only a few small tournaments. But I am a very active player. I've had several occasions to email POP over the past year and I've always received a fast and courteous response.

I just went through my outbox of messages to you, and found a number of emails I sent to you that were never responded to, should I stop trying?

I can't believe someone would complain about not getting a response to their email when they themselves won't respond to that same parties emails.


As far as the change itself goes, getting more of the latest cards in the hands of more players, at no additional cost to those players, is going to be very good for the game.

If you won’t compete for a just a trophy or even just for the fun of competition in this fun game, (not to mention your own ratings), then maybe you should take a look at just why you are playing Pokemon.

 

[RainbowRichards]

From the sound of it, looks like you guys are really working hard to make this years Championship season better then ever. MMM wonder what is planned?

Just check out my sig, and think about the statement (if I 'pioneered' something, that infers it was repeated or followed by others), oh, but you probably know what's up ...

 

[TheDarkTwins]

Go RR!!! You Rock!!!
Hehe...
Drew

 

[meganium45]

Steve. Why the complaint for adding to the pool?

I was VERY careful to make sure that PUI approved this before I espoused it as fact.

Let's face it. These events are a business. I have clients, I have an obligation to keep my clients happy.

I am not "side-stepping" the PUI prize support, I am following it EXACTLY. Every player who enters will get 4 packs and 2 POP packs for participating just as PUI had required. No change.

What I am doing is enhancing the prize structure to be what the players want.

PTOs have done this from the beginning - certain gyms give out Gamecubes and other Huge door prizes not sponsored by PUI. Why? To bring in players.

I have players who travel a great deal for my events - I know this. My events draw people from Mississippi, Alabama, Missouri and other states. I know why they come - to hang with me and the other great players of the area. For the competition. For the prizes.

I am already having to move my event "off-site" in Memphis due to space restrictions. We have outgrown our home, and will move to a hotel location, so we can accomodate the numbers we had last time. This will cost me more to rent the space, as I expect the expense will not be picked up by PUI.

I already have this as a variable, so I am eliminating the new prize structure as a variable by making my pledge to the players. What other "value added" thing am I thinking of adding for the additional $3.00 - LUNCH. I am determined to keep this location flourishing, and make it as successful as the GREAT gyms of legend from the West - you know, the ones that ALWAYS put up the numbers.

It seems that this spitting match, although entertaining, is kind of moot. See what your local PTO is doing - I have a feeling you will all be surprised as to how well we respond to our customers/clients, while still giving PUI what they want, events run and handled properly.

Talk with you all soon.

M45

 

[Lawman]

Let me restate a few things and clarify my points. I don't mind the overall structure of giving a bit more to EVERYONE who shows up to play. 6 packs only for $20, if you dont finish "in the money" is still not bad bc most pks run 3.29 retail + tax. 10packs for $20 is better. I'd prefer to give the winners an incentive to play though. Many people do travel to play in PRs. Many travel several hours round trip like my son and I do. Lets look at it from their perspective, not the truly "local" player who may have to drive 1-15 miles to their store. I personally am glad to see M45 and other PTOs who will up the ante for the winners and still give out the 10 pks. Major props to them. But dont bash those who say they like the "go for the box" attitude either. These are opinions and PUI will listen to all (or mostly all PUI is doing great so far IMHO. The last year has been great! Prize structure, trips, etc ..... fantastic!!!! My son will enjoy a trophy, if he wins one. Me....my "trophy" days are over What I think may happen though is smaller venues will be phased out and only the larger venues will garner much attendance (ie Memphis and CA) My question is this? How will Pokemon TCG game grow if the smaller venues gets phased out and then you are "required" to attend a cattle call tourney w/ 80-100 attendees to try and get a few more packs? I think PUI's change is focused more upon the fewer "large" venues where many folks walk away w/ "just" 6 pks, along with the fun of playing lots of different people. We will probably still travel bc we have met many people all around the area and it is great to see them occasionally. But, IMHO, the overall numbers at PRs will decrease in the coming sets.

Keith

 

[Professor Dav]

Dave - is this prize structure going to be the standard Worldwide?

That's the idea, and one of the reasons it was implemented.

Thanks,

Prof. Dav

 

[meganium45]

Lawman, I disagree.

I will be running 2 smaller pre-releases in St. Louis and St. Peters, where I am not expecting anywhere near the Memphis numbers.

I will be adding prize support for the winners, but not to the guaranteed extent of memphis. If the attendance goes up, as I think it will, then there will be plenty of packs left over for the winners.

This does little more than equalize the prizes, no matter your size of venue.

Former system - 8 boxes of prize support no matter your attendance - 288 packs.

Means 20 packs per player at a 14 player event, and 3.5 packs per player at an 80 player event. Where is the fairness in that?

Now, with the new system, you have, under their guidelines - 6 packs (2 POP) per player no matter the size of the event - and with my add on, it will still be 8 packs per player, no matter the size of the event.

6 packs to play - 8 packs as prizes (when averaged out), all for $18.00 - you do the math...$1.28 per pack. With everyone being guaranteed the 6 packs as prizes, so the WORST you can do is 12 packs for $18.00 - $1.50 per pack.

The utter consistancy of this has to be seen as fair.

If the smaller venues (20 or less) who get half their support from out of town players suffer, it has to be reviewed if there were enough interested players in that area to support a premiere event.

I know of a few venues where there were only 1 or 2 locals, and the rest were out of towners. Why hold a pre-Release there at all? Especially when the locals had their own events to attend.

M45

 

[Gym Leader Blaine]

In addition to this, there are some other changes that we believe that ALL of our players will really enjoy in the coming Championship season.

Thanks,
Prof. Dav

I think this is what Dave ment with this statement.

http://op.pokemon-tcg.com/articles/free_events.asp

All Premeir events are now FREE

Now lets see someone complain about getting into a tournament for free.

 

[Lawman]

Vince....reread my last post. I agree w/ lots of what you say. But even with the smaller venues, 8 boxes of prize support wont be given out if the entire field isnt filled out in the 10-, 11-14, etc. If a venue had 5 10-s, then the prize support is cut overall for that group. You would have the 1st thru 5th place winners getting their packs, but 6-8 place is returned (or kept by PTO). All I am saying is give a bit of a plus to the "winners" everywhere instead of flat line prize structure. As I said, PUI has done a great job in their 1st year and I look fwd to this year! I may even get over to Memphis for one of your super tourneys Vince. (if the wife gives me and Alex a long enough yard pass BTW How easy (or difficult) is it to become a recognized PTO?? We have a great regular league in Sevierville, but no PTO to run premier events.

Keith

 

[Adv1sor]

Now lets see someone complain about getting into a tournament for free.

Oh great, now POP is depriving me of the joy I get from spending money to enter a tournament!

How’s that?

 

[Rainbowgym]

Now lets see someone complain about getting into a tournament for free

Well first you need a TO and a tournament to enter, don't you???