Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[kirbyking]

Alright everyone, I have been very sick, so I have spent most of my time resting and very little reading the thread. Now that I am somewhat feeling up to it I would like to express my opinions and my finds. I am sorry if it is a little disorganized.

What kind of circumstances though? Sorry there must be some sort of role that I'am unaware of for a townie.

I do not see this as rolefishing. I see this as much as role fishing as I do Vablakes’s post

So, let's get some conversation going.

What kind of roles do we expect to see in a game this big? Surely, there have to be quite a few in a game this big.

How many wolves do we think there are?

How are we going to get 23 people to vote for the same person? That is going to be difficult.

Do we use RVS day one to put pressure on random people to see how they react? Who knows, we might make one of the wolves slip up. Or do we wait to see if anyone acts suspicious?

Sorry if those are some nooby questions, but I am a noob.

I don't see it as rolefishing, however kinda derp because we have a list of common roles under the opening story.

I agree with this, kinda. Right now, I have no information, except my role PM. I suspect the same is true of most of the town (some may have very limited other information) and most/all of the independents. Only the mafia have any real information, and that's whatever pregame planning they've done, and each other's names. So right now, we really don't have much to do except for RVS type posting (that's Random Voting Stage for those who don't know), but I'm pleased to see people very quickly pushing towards more serious discussion. The faster we start dissecting posts, the better. But as we get onto said serious discussion, I think it's worthwhile making sure each post adds content, as opposed to just posting to go 'hey guys I've read stuff what's going on?'



So, I'm not going to go to the effort of verifying your newness, but assuming you're telling the truth, the first question could be considered rolefishing (or rolephishing), which is basically a scum move where you try and get people to drop hints about their roles. I DO NOT think this what you intended, so don't consider this an accusation. But rolefishing can be extremely dangerous, as it paints a target on our important power roles, which is a very bad thing.

Sandslash7 linked to the Werewolf Compendium pregame, which I've been looking at. Scum numbers there are surprisingly lower than I would expect. 45 players is something crazy, I've played a 35 player game once, that had one team of 10 scum, and scum won by a super lucky last day move. So 45, I would say, I'd expect about 12-14 scum, but in all liklihood, I think that's the number where you get two teams, probably of about 6-8 each. Possibly even slightly lower numbers for a single/double team, and a few more independents, as that looks popular here.
But actually, theorising doesn't especially help right now. Later on, maybe, but let's leave it for then.

We get 23 people voting together by bandwagons. At first, it doesn't matter so much, but later on, people will have to vote for someone that maybe isn't their first suspect, but they do suspect somewhat, because it's the only way to get a consensus. In other words, we're basically going for something like approval (or disapproval?) voting, instead of FPTP voting.

Day 1 is valuable. It's a chance to set things in motion, see how people react, get initial reads on people. Right now, it's hard, there's very little to read, but as more people post, there's more to react to. Right now, people might get very weak reads, and I encourage you to vote on them - maybe you'll get more information from that person, which will either dissipate or raise your suspcions. Then you can move on, press them more, see how others feel, and vote for them still or someone else.

Right now, the only really town/scum play I've seen (and it's still very weak, a single posts read) is jellyfisher's post, from which I get a slight town read (more town posting is good, he encourages town posting.

He is acting like he knows more than we do. Has been explained how he plays on other websites. I still think we need to keep an eye on Tables.

Activity post woo!

Oh wait, you guys want me to contribute huh. *sigh* Fine.

Okay first of all school excuses blah blah blah etc. etc.

Okay! Now that that's out of the way, let's begin a real post!

Vote: Vablakes

My case? He was role fishing. If you are a power role and say what roles you think might be a game, you might end up slipping your own role, which is not what we want.

Speaking of power roles, I want to say something REALLY important. Do not, and I repeat, do not claim unless it is clear that you will be lynched if you do not. (I.E. Don't claim just because someone is voting for you. Only claim if the lynchhammer is definitely coming down on you)

Now, I'd like to put out some important advice for all town players, regardless of role:

When you read a post, put yourself in that person's shoes. Say to yourself, "If I was that player, would I say that if I was Town? Werewolf? Lone?" This is an efficient way to find scum.

Don't bother with policy lynches. It isn't worth reducing the amount of town players for any reason. If they happen to be scummy, that is of course a different story entirely.

Don't play scummy. Sounds obvious, I know, but it happens. Some people do this to avoid nightkills, but it might end up biting you in the butt later when you are forced to claim or get lynched. This is particularly true for Vanilla Townies, since you have no claim to save you, but PRs should avoid doing this like the plague.

Don't lie. The situations where lying is a good idea are few and far between. It makes people suspicious of you unless you can prove it was for a calculated risk.

Don't go down quietly. If you are getting lynched, defend yourself until the end. Self-hammering in particular is a no-no. Letting yourself get lynched without argument is playing against your win condition.

Find towntells as well as scumtells. A lot of people focus on just finding the scum and getting rid of them, but sometimes, finding a pro-town player can be just as helpful. This also allows you to add process of elimination to your ways of finding scum.

Don't bother with meta-reads or post-by-post analyses. I know that seems like a weird thing to say, but all this is doing is going into something knowing your conclusion already, and stretching a bunch of quotes to fit said conclusion. Post-by-post analyses in particular are a waste of time.

Try to avoid putting too much into one post. If someone is skimming the thread, it's unlikely they are going to read everything you say in a gigantic post. Say what you think is important, and nothing more than that.

Remember that you aren't trying to convince another player that they're scum. You're trying to convince everyone else that said player is scum. Arguing directly at them is pointless. Explain to everyone why you think they are scum.

Don't defend yourself too much. Too much of anything is a bad thing. Overly defending yourself distracts you from actively finding out scum. That isn't to say don't defend yourself, by all means do. Just keep in mind that if you are town, you know you are town and you should be looking for the scum, not worrying about keeping up a defense.

Don't think you know the whole scumteam. Chances are, you don't, especially if you have no information on said scum. Don't make up connections until someone has flipped scum, at which point you can try to find connections to other players.

Don't vote for people you don't think are scum. This should be obvious. Don't follow a wagon on someone who you truly think is town. Remember that no one except the scum themselves are certain who the scum is. Stand by what you believe, and don't let others tell you otherwise. At the same time, don't close yourself off to other opinions.

I feel like I forgot something, but maybe it'll come to me later.

Contradicts himself by saying not to make that big of posts while he makes some of his own. Accuses Vablakes of role-fishing, but he is new to the game and was just curious. Vablakes is starting to look scummier, but this is no reason to claim he was role-fishing when he wasn’t. It appears he is trying to help some of the new players, but in fact he actually voting for one. Plus there is A) no reason to post this during the game, when he could have pregame and B) Cabd already made one of these.

Yeah, prohawk already leans town. Welcome!

I will also say I 100% agree with his post.

VOTE: HUMAN DESTROYER

sheeping sound logic is good.

Further HD (human destroyer) why the unvote. What in this post made you change your mind?


Vablakes, newb is as newb does, why was your behavior newbtown or newbwolf?

Glaceon, why the huge loss comment. I really don't understand, please explain.

One of my favorite players from WWhatverA is posting like he did last game? When he was a wolf? Especially to a great player like Prohawk, who JP has played with and knows how well he plays. He also completely bandwagons on Prohawk. This is looking very strange from JP.

@thunderjolt. Prohawk knows what I'm talking about, I would provide you the link but it's to an offsite completed game. Also why do you think my play from last game is now meta? *coughWIFOMcough*

Pretty illogical. Whether it is meta or not I do not like the way you have started playing.

How is making a slightly big post (there has definitely been bigger ones) which somewhat contradicts what he says grounds for voting someone? Also, the statements were directed at a person that is town so there really isn't anything wrong with it. You can't say you're suspiscious about something without saying why, there's no way he can defend against a statement like that since you've provided no reasoning as to why it's suspsious.

You're saying that simple things such as word choice is enough to get someone lynched. It feels like you just wanted to jump on the bandwagon but you knew you had to provide some reasons.

Vote: StrongRhino

OMG he pressure votes someone without adding everyone else’s reasons along with his? That’s is completely awful /sarcasm. Really I see no reason to vote Strongrhino here and disagree with your logic.

Posting to let you guys know I'm here. Please don't start jumping on me for inactivity.... I'm not feeling very well at the moment and am going to bed. I'll try and read over the game and make a post tomorrow. I'll be fairly more active after December 16th, once my finals are over. Until then, I'll post as I'm able to.

I understand bro. Some people just don’t understand finals.

Vote: Human Destroyer
Reason: Many people have already given well thought out reasons that make a lot of sense to me, wolves want to make themselves seem friendly, posting anything that will convince others that they aren't wolves.

Obvious bandwagon from a newer player. I advise to post your reasonings more often.

I am not done catching up yet, but there s something I should get out there

the fact is I should not be targeted at night

if you still want to target me, consider it your own loss



I look at the thread and my role PM, and I see no such info
##Vote: Prohawk

and what is this plenty of info you have, care to share?

I am a little new to this, and am not sure what to think about this.

What on earth? FoSing me? I was just pointing out that you made a dumb play. You don't reveal things like that, it makes wolves more likely to target you and the town more likely to lynch you. And, you really shouldn't reveal a retaliatory role to the wolves, that is helping them. You are really going to FoS me for that? For now:

Vote: Crimsonsky

FoSing me for pointing something that you did out is crazy. Revealing a retaliator role is crazy. You must be a wolf.

Just because he claims doesn’t make him a wolf. I do not like the way Vablakes responds to this.

I agree with a lot of peoples' suspicions thus far (but am not willing to hop on a bandwagon until I see something more concrete), and would like to point out that although I'm new here, everyone posting a lot doesn't only benefit townies. It benefits the wolves, which makes this post a little strange...

RoS: Diaz

Posting a lot DOES benefit us as townies as we can scum hunt more and find the wolves. Just think, if nobody said anything at all, except voting. It would be extremely hard to find wolves.

All right, I was using the "Bad Townie Gambit". It reads:

This gambit is best pulled off by a Vanilla Townie. In the first day of the game, act scummy in an intentional act to draw a small wagon. Without a doubt you'll have one or two over-eager wolves hop on your wagon near the middle. Naturally, it is best you reveal your ploy soon after, lest you actually get lynched.

4 words: I DON’T BUY IT. I don’t see how you were using this at all.

Sorry all spent the day with the family. Thread skimmed.... Need to re-read. Arghhh, Kayle gotta get back to you. But I'll say you flattery (suspicions) will get you everywhere with me. Blushes shamelessly.

Something is going on with vablakes (needs a closer read). Will post more later tomorrow night.

Where the heck is Diaz? His absence is bothering me.

Why do you need to blush? I find it weird you are acting like this.

When I nightkill someone in a previous game because I legitimately feel he's MVP and then that same person turns into a grumbling mass of uselessness the next game? Yeah. Suspicious as heck. Blush me a rose glaceon boy. <3

Agreed I don’t understand the what exactly JP is doing, but I guess it could be part of his own plan.

No response? No acknowledgement of your OMGUS vote?

Though I do like that idea. I might implement it into my next game.



There is plenty to discuss. Do you think Vablakes is a newb trying hard or do you think he is a wolf trying to get out of the spotlight? What do you think of Scorri and her impediment/Crimsonsky's crumb?







You two, explain the bold please.

I think the argument SS7 brought up was very weak. You can’t really bring pregame talk into the game.

I'm going to do this in multiple parts, because I do have homework to do and I want to do as many of these as possible, so let's begin! I'll go in sign up order:

1. Sandslash7

Sandslash, I'm going to address you directly and say you're getting on people for things even more shoddy than my first Vablakes accusation. The fake speech impediment I can kind of understand, but thinking it's suspicious to say "Looking forward to lynching wolves"? I find that a little nitpicky if I do say so myself.

Read: Null

My Questions:

Why are you nitpicking for small details to find scum? If you aren't, please correct me, it just seems like you are.

2. jellyfisher



I agree with this, although I also admit I am partly to blame. He's been actively scumhunting, although I'm a little wary as this is the way he played last game and he was scum. I haven't seen his other games though so this could just be his usual playstyle.

Read: Leans Town

3. PMysterious

Please, PM, listen to the mod. He said the subs had nothing to do with faction, but rather them just obtaining information they weren't supposed to. They could've all been townies communicating outside the game, it could've been a case of a wolf PMing the others by accident. The point is, we don't know. I'd rather not make assumptions based on such a miniscule amount of information.

My Questions:

What are your reads on me? Vablakes? ProHawk?

Read: Null

4. Human Destroyer

I don't need to read myself, because I know what I am.

Read: Confirmed Town

Well, I'm confirmed town to myself, so that counts for something...right?

5. Dragonclyne725

Dragonclyne has brought up some interesting points, such as scorri's thinking of SS7 as scummy but not himself even though they had done the exact same thing, and I don't think a scum would've come right out and said that. He's done a lot of (relevant) question-asking, which I consider pro-town.

Read: Town

6. DarthPika

Lots of posts making excuses for inactivity, although I can't really blame him since he explained that before the game even started. The only vote he's made is for Vablakes, which is doesn't really prove anything since a lot of people have their votes on Vablakes at this point.

Read: Null

My Questions:

What are your reads on Sandslash7? Dragonclyne?

7. Kirbyking

Uh, hey, Kirbyking? Do you plan on posting anything? At all? Ever? This lurking is (as far as I can tell) extremely unlike you, and I find that suspicious.

Read: Leans Scum

Yes, I know it seems like a large accusation to make but lurking is just so unlike him. He could have reasons for being away (Finals maybe?) but if that is the case I would like it if he at least posted to tell us that.

8. Moo2

Has made exactly two posts; his in to replace post and his role received post. Unlike KK, who I have seen play before, I have nothing to get from this. Moo2, please post more!

Read: Null

9. Shinori

Has posted nothing of value. Literally made an RVS vote for Luster Purge, said he would read and promised a post, then didn't post...yet (I just realized as I was typing this he only made that post three hours ago, so forgive me if he ninjas me with a post)

Read: Null

Post more please!

10. Butter nut ninja

This is his only post. Uh yeah, butter nut, you need to post if you're part of the game. Please post more!

Read: Null

I just can't get a read on him until he actually makes some posts.

11. Thunderjolt

I think this post is pretty pro-town. He's right that if you find someone suspicious, you shouldn't just suddenly unvote them and then make no vote whatsoever to justify the unvoting (I was in no danger of being lynched this early in the day, so that isn't an excuse). I also find his jpulice vote proves that he isn't afraid to go against the feelings of other "pro-town" players if he finds someone suspicious. I find that to be a pro-town thing to do.

Read: Leans Town

My Questions:

What are your reads on me and Vablakes? Has anything else jpulice said made your suspicion of him continue?

That's the 10 I'm going to do for now (No, doing a read on yourself doesn't count as 1). I have homework to do, so I'll do another 10-15 after.

Okay HD, this is WIFOM and you know it. How about a list.

I could be

A) A townie with a PR
B) A wolf who is hiding
C) A townie who is changing his playstyle
D) Sick
E) Busy (with finals)

I’ll give you a hint. It is not B. The correct answer is D. It will also soon be E. I find this odd you single me out, but leave the other inactives alone.

KK is leaning scum because of how unlike him lurking is. He's usually a very active player when he's town. I can't say the same of Moo2 and Shinori because I've never seen them play.

Again this is WIFOM.

Hey H_D. Please read.... Here's the direct quote. How would you expect me to play? My comment to thunderjolt is similar to yours. You can not use my past game to indicate my alignment. If you did then you should be using all of my games, which you won't establish an easy meta. Again this is all WIFOM. I'm not using WIFOM, thunderjolt is.

Additionally, if you refuse to read any of my previous games, you clearly have no intent on determining my actual alignment. Additionally, DC725 has asked you a fantastic question about your read on Moo. If you only have played one WW game how have you established meta on KK? How is he lurking and not Moo. I was expecting more from Moo with his few posts prior to the restart of the day. However, you find this null. WHY?

~~~~
P-edit, H-D I don't find you hunting at all. How can you suggest PM for his suspicions and is play when you are not doing anything yourself.

@PM, what are you thought on SS7 and Absoltrainer?

@Tables a side note, Tables, my question to you was not a good one. I needed to go back and look it all back over. I was under the impression you were the one really doing the set-up speculation, but you said something very important in your post.


I didn't see it and I think you definitely lean town for it.

@SS7, please explain why Tables post was suspicious again.

I agree this should not determine your or my playstyle, but you are playing awfully weird. Again this doesn’t mean you are wolf or a townie but you are sure drawing a lot of attention.

I'm not going to point a ton of fingers yet, but my sis (JewelQuest) seems to be acting suspicious. with Vablakes I can see him being a new townie who made a stupid mistake (try looking at me) and wasn't trying to do anything more than just help the town.

I know it has been said, but try to keep your rivalry out of the game. Please and thank you.
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The Whole AT and Vegi Argument

I was following the argument somewhat closely. I was wondering when AT was going to turn the argument around. He usually doesn’t play so aggressively, so I figured he had something up his sleeve. After reading his entire Gargantuous post I see it as very valid. I agree with most of his points. However AT I am not so sure about Vablakes. I have been in his spot before and therefore can relate to him. He has been playing scummy though and NEEDS to be watched.
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My Thought and Opinions

SS7 – NULL

Jellyfisher – Leans town

PM – NULL

Human Destroyer – Leans scum

Dragonclyne725 – Leans town

Thunderjolt – Leans town

JP – NULL

JQ – NULL

Prohawk – Leans town

Benzo – NULL

Kayle – NULL

Vegitalian – Leans scum

AbsolTrainer – Leans town

Vablakes – Leans scum

Diaz – Null

If I didn’t list you, you most likely are NULL in my mind.
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My Lynch Opinions

I find these players major on the lynch status:

Vegitalian
Vablakes
Human Destroyer

If feel like out of these players Vegitalian needs to be the one lynched. I really do not like the way he responded to AT. Also how he didn’t defend himself.


In the end I am still a little sick, but felt necessary I at least make one decent post. I probably won’t be able to post again considering all the school I’ve missed right next to finals week. If I missed something please lmk and I will get to it when I have time.

 

[JewelQuest]

So, I mostly got off so that PikaJewel could get on, but she is busy right now, so I am back on.

I am going to quote AT's plan from his post and post my thoughts in bold. If you want to make sure that I haven't changed anything, please see here.

--------------------PART 1: WHAT I WAS DOING-------------------------------------

What I have seen from Absol's past game has been very calculated, well thought out and planned play

I always have a plan, and I had one this time. This entire thing has been my plan. I breadcrumbed as such several times:

If I see something I can contribute to I will, but I see no point in posting for the sake of posting and trying to find something out of nothing.

I said I won't post for the sake of posting. I post when I have something worth saying to say. I'm not going to try and find something from nothing.

I don’t post for the sake of posting

Oh I'm hardly arguing for the sake of arguing. I'd say I'm arguing because I'm taking down scum.

I don’t post for the sake of posting.

3.) I cannot stress this enough...read ALL the posts thoruoughy and in detail...take note of what you see....

So you say that these were breadcrumbs, hmm? I can believe that some of them are, but the first couple I find a hard time believing it. Anyone can say that they won't post just for the sake of posting, and in fact, I believe that is a rule that everyone should follow. But I don't think that it makes a a very believable breadcrumb.

I am going to break down the following wall of text into sections in order to make it easier to follow for both me and anyone else.

That phrase doesn’t show up that often on accident I was trying to imply that there was a much deeper meaning to what I was doing, and there most certainly was.

Now this I can believe, you always do have a plan

How many people have gone after me and taken the other side on bias because I was “too mean” or “too aggressive.” Quite a few, many people didn’t even bother to read the exchange in detail until much later, and even then, people were complaining about how aggressive, how emotional, how mean I was being. People said I was acting like a “smug little troll-child on a playground.” Clearly I was getting to people, touching nerves; all a part of the plan.

Just because it is 'all a part of the plan' doesn't give you the right to behave like a 'smug little troll-child on a playground'. You claim that you're emotional blow was all part of the plan. I find that hard to believe. As Diaz said, there was no reason for you to blow up about vegitalion saying that you defended Vablakes. I myself was on that list, and while I feel that I was completely defending him, I didn't blow up like that.

You see, there are two things that really, really, really make people screw up: over-confidence, and anger. I realized early on that Vegitalian was acting scummy, and his early responses further incriminated him (I will elaborate later in this post when I make my case against him.) It was early in the game day, and I needed to take advantage of this. So I went about to adopt that aggressive persona.

Sure, it was early in the game day when you began your attacks, but they proceeded to be take up most of the rest of the game day, halting all other talk.
And you didn't just adopt an aggressive persona, you looked like a bully. Wolves bully, not townies, and it looked very much like you were bullying.

Those who know me, know I rarely play the same style during games, in fact, I have played differently in the last 5 games I’ve played in. It makes me unpredictable, and more successful. This is why many of the more experienced players were hesitant to jump on me for my aggressive behavior. I am very confident that several of them were shaking their heads in utter confusion for what I was doing.

Now who is looking towards past games? Many of the experienced players might have been hesitant to jump on you also for the sake of not interrupting your....conversation with vegitalion. And there were more than a few experienced players who were not hesitant to jump on you at all.

Anyways, so I take on this angry persona, which I KNOW is going to upset some people. I planned on it upsetting people.

.....So you were purposely trying to upset and disrupt the town? Gee, sounds like good townie behavior to me! /sarcasm

I had to push Vegitalian to keep talking, the more he talked, the more I could gauge how he was reacting to an onslaught of pressure. He was doing the same thing, but what he didn’t know was that I wanted him to let me make a fool of myself. The more I talked, the more he talked, the more I talked, the further I set myself up for attack, which would give me a lot of useful information. As my arguments degraded to petty insults, he became more confident.

Now, I feel that this might have been a good thing, had you been gentler in your approach. A townie should not gain anything from reducing his argument to 'petty insults'.

Eventually he said he was getting off for the night, and it was then I ramped up my persona against others. As people jumped on me immediately for how much of a “bully” I was being, I made no attempt to hide it, cocky in my responses, and digging my own grave. By the next morning, Kayle and several others were furious at me and my “tone” and “emotional responses.”

So, you admit to digging your own grave, and yet you expect us to all jump off of you?

Vegitalian himself was now posting his points after seeing so many people rush to his aid, he had to be feeling confident. All through this scenario, I watch, I took notes, and I connected the dots.

You act like he is a wolf, but I find it more likely that he was a townie being attacked by a wolf with a bad attitude. Who wouldn't be pulled down by that?

I can't wait for you to try to go back and justify individual portions of your posts with him that were relevant. Maybe you will really have a point, but more likely, you'll just decide I am your new playmate.

Everything was relevant, down to the smallest detail. There was most assuredly a point to this all. Don’t worry Kayle, you have gained very close attention, but I’ll address that later in this post.

I agree with Diaz that you, because of your over aggressive and long game-day-interrupting chat with vegitalion, its come down to you, or him. And at this point, I hope it is you.

I don't trust you. You haven't said anything to make me trust you, nor will you. You have been acting very scummily all game day, and I find it more likely than not that you are scum. Good day.

 

[Human Destroyer]

Oh hey, it's KK! Not sure if you missed this, but:

KK in particular, I'd like to see some posts from you (although, as I understand it, he's been away for finals, so that would explain his inactivity and has me less suspicious of him)

Replace "finals" with "being sick", and you have the truth!

 

[vegitalian]

I'm starting to think that very few people read my response post. Everyone's saying that I didn't defend myself, but I did. AbsolTrainer posted 38 pages of fluff. I'm not going to dig out from the 38 pages because I do not have time. Wolf or townie (or indie), this puts a player at an extreme disadvantage if they have anything going on with their life. For example, I worked today, and am shortly heading to volleyball and drinks, will get home at 1-2am, go to work tomorrow at 7am, etc. He's seen that my responses have been short and have lacked detail. He's banking on this - he's using this to get the lynch vote on me, and my lack of response has nothing to do with whether I'm scum or a townie.

He STILL has not responded to my response post, or explained why he said what he did about not being afraid of wolves. He's gone after people that said it was relevant, but hasn't explained why he said it in the first place. Yes, a 38 page response would be nice, but I can't afford the time right now, and I don't want to clutter up the board anymore (nor do I want a 76 page response next time!).

If you vote me because I'm not willing to pick apart his scattered and lengthy post, you're punishing me for my lack of time (despite the fact that I have already devoted a lot to this game today), and will only end up punishing yourselves (unless you are a wolf or indy). I hope this post is looked at after I am lynched, and I hope you use this to see who the real wolf is!

Onto Prohawk's questions:

Why was I left out of your list as defending Vablakes?

@Tables, I did see your posts and Jewel's posts, but you do realize that it was G Landers that was role-fishing right? Take a look at this post. Vablakes's question was clearly a sincere new player question, and I applaud his gusto to come right out and try to make discussion.

I missed this, because it was right under the quote where you were defending yourself. I didn't read it when I was going through. (Post 207 for reference)

Why did you say that Absol alleviated suspicion and that several people voted for him when those statements lack evidence to back them up?

How is that role-fishing? Because he said "what roles do we expect to see in this game?" And he thinks that power roles are going to be slipping and saying their role in response? The seer isn't going to say there might be seers in the game, the detective isn't going to say there might be detectives in the game, and anyone with a unique role not seen before isn't going to say it either. If Valblakes had PUSHED the topic to try and get roles, I would call it role fishing.

How isn't this alleviating suspicion? He's arguing with HD's reasons for voting Vablakes point by point. He's alleviating suspicion by unvalidating HD's points. I know you disagree with this, but I'm not the only one that reads this post that way.

 

[Absoltrainer]

I have identified between 1-3 wolves with the upmost confidence. What you all choose to do with this information is your own choice. Though I continue to find it interesting that some people refuse to care about what information I obtained because of HOW I obtained. People are going out of theiir way NOT TO PROVE MY EVIDENCE WRONG, but to prove my METHODS wrong. No one has posted why Vegitilian, Kayle, or Vablakes is innocent, that my evidence against them is wrong, in fact many people have agreeed with some if not all of it. People keep saying that "I was mean, I must be bad." JewelQuest brings up how crafty I was in the past as evidence. Her evidence against me for this game is that I was a"bully. "That is an irrelavant matter. What is relavant is that you can vote Vegitilain and see that I am right, and then further see if Vablakes and Kayle who have been awfully quiet are as scummy as they seem. The other option is you kill me for no other reason other than "you're mean," and go back to square one, gaining absolutely nothing from killing me. I will concede that I am the correct vote if someone can tell me why after ALL the evidence seen here: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2364401&postcount=570 none of those three, Vegitilian, Vablakes, or Kayle is not more scummy then me, who I want to repeat has only ONE incriminating fact: "I was a bully."

And that is where we stand.

 

[Pikamaster]

VOTE COUNT:
45 Remaining
23 to lynch

Vegitalian- 9 ( Absoltrainer, Prohawk, Dragonclyne725, Jellyfisher, SMP88, Waynegg, Pokemonfreak5, Desufnoc, Scorri)
Kayle- 1 (Tables)
Prohawk- 2 (Crimsonsky, Luster Purge)
Vablakes- 1 (G landers)
Human Destroyer- 1 (Jpulice)
Jpulice- 3 (Thunderjolt, Human Destroyer, Kayle)
StrongRhino- 1 (TheKing)
Your Face- 1 (Jason)
Absoltrainer- 8 (Shinori, Butter nut ninja, JewelQuest, PikaJewel, Pokemonplayer101, StrongRhino, Vegitalian, Diaz)
PMysterious- 1 (Eclipse)
Crimsonsky- 1 (Benzo)

 

[SMP88]

He STILL has not responded to my response post, or explained why he said what he did about not being afraid of wolves. He's gone after people that said it was relevant, but hasn't explained why he said it in the first place. Yes, a 38 page response would be nice, but I can't afford the time right now, and I don't want to clutter up the board anymore (nor do I want a 76 page response next time!).

He seems to have answered it here:

http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2364560&postcount=585

 

[PMysterious]

I do not care for the wolf/third-party bit at all; my role PM isn't written in a way that tells me whether a third party exists, and discussing whether or not one exists does not find wolves.

Now just because YOU don't know there's a third-party doesn't mean there isn't. I do not care what you say about the third-party faction as it won't change my mind.

I really have nothing to say because I'll basically jump on the wagon. And if I jump on the wagon, I'll be as bad as the player who started the wagon. To be honest, there is really no point I can make because of the whole wagon stuff. However, if I DO make a point that's actually worth something, no one will even care and skim it. How the heck am I SUPPOSED to make a point if there is no need for it. If there WAS something that's actually worth mentioning, someone will ninja me and say the point I was going to make. I REALLY need help.

 

[Absoltrainer]

Now just because YOU don't know there's a third-party doesn't mean there isn't. I do not care what you say about the third-party faction as it won't change my mind.

I really have nothing to say because I'll basically jump on the wagon. And if I jump on the wagon, I'll be as bad as the player who started the wagon. To be honest, there is really no point I can make because of the whole wagon stuff. However, if I DO make a point that's actually worth something, no one will even care and skim it. How the heck am I SUPPOSED to make a point if there is no need for it. If there WAS something that's actually worth mentioning, someone will ninja me and say the point I was going to make. I REALLY need help.

PM I'm jumping out of game mode for a second and going in mod mode for this. I want to be clear that this post in no way affects, or defines how I feel about PM for the purposes of this game.

Then don't jump on the wagon, and only start one with enough evidence that there can be no doubt as to why you started it. I've watched for since you first PM'd me saying how much you wanted to play in a Werewolf game. Each game has been the same. All you do is complain and feel sorry for yourself. Before you get mad, I am in no way trying to beat up on you, I am pointing out what I see. You've made mistakes, everyone has. The problem is, you have let those mistakes define you. Don't. Learn from the past, don't forget it, but do NOT let it define the present, and certainly do not let it steer the future. There is a reason I hate it when people referance how experianced a player is, or how new they are, and even more of the reason why I hate that it happens so often. There is ALWAYS a need for a point to be made. How you makes it defines it's perception. That last phrase is wrong. You don't NEED to help, you WANT to help. That is why you keep playing. So I have a proposal for you. For you next post, post your points, your opinions, your feelings. Do so in a way that is meaningful and represent information in a signifigant way, reguardless of whether it has already been brought up. Quit letting what other have said about your past mistakes define you. I don't skim your posts. I read them with the same amount of detail and attention I'd read a post made by Prohawk, Ikrit, or Sandslash7.

Have some confidence in yourself. You are beating yourself up over a game that is suppsoed to be fun. So you made some mistakes, big whoop, who hasn't. In my first game ever as a wolf, I blindly went after veteran players in the day and was so blindly scummy I got killed Day 1. You're first time as a wolf (the alpha I might add), you made it to Day 4.

Your writing refelcts your thoughts. If you have no confidence in yourself, you writing will reflect as much, and your tone and writing comes off weak and won't resonate with people.

Ok, switching back to game mode, again this post has nothing to do with my read on PM or any other player. I am writing this post as a dedicated memeber of the werewolf community and as a mod who wants to help players improve themselves.

 

[Sandslash7]

@SS7: In an earlier post I asked if you a question. It wasn't a throwaway or rhetorical question. I want you to answer. The question was something like this: It seems clear from simply reading the post that AT did in fact defend Vablakes. He and Prohawk are now denying that he did so. Do you think that their reading comprehension is poor enough to allow for this, or do you think they are being intentionally dumb? (Or is there something else that you think is going on?)

Sorry. I must have missed it, so I'll answer now.

I think that both readings are valid, from a certain point of view. I don't think that they are playing dumb or actually that dumb. To me it seems like they genuinly believe it is not a defense.


When I boiled Absol's statement about Vablakes and HD down to its core, I came out with this (repost from above): "HD, you are saying that Vablakes is role-fishing. Vablakes is not rolefishing. Vote HD."

While yes it is an attack on shoddy reasoning by HD, I also see it as a defense of Vablakes (saying that he was not rolefishing). I see it as both, while Absol is fervent that it is but one of those options.




Absol ~ This is where a difference in philosophies is. It is true that Vegi has his scummy points. But, I'm not an "Ends justify the means(methods)" man. If your methods are scummy, you won't sway me to your cause.

I will say that your comment about being not scared of wolves is not as interesting as I thought it was. VT's can be just as un-scared of wolves as someone protected, so that comment is null. Jewelquest touched on that a little while ago.



Crimsonsky(566) ~ I didn't say eclipse was town. I said that I liked their post style/content and it was pro-town (i.e. making note of reads with links to back up their posts). As noted above I call them like I see them. If someone is posting well and logically, I'm going to make a note, whether personally or publicly. If all players posted direct links to what they were quoting/responding to, there would be significantly less leeway for wolves to twist words or intentionally misinterpret based on changed "quotations."


Vegi, as SMP88 noted, Absol did respond to your question.


Vote: Vegitalian

For failing to respond to questions about his actions (both from Absoltrainer and Human_Destroyer), for failing to be attentive (see SMP88 and OMGUS, I used the term in one of my posts very early in the game against scorri, as "Oh My Goodness You Suck," but he still "had to google it and couldn't figure it out."), and for intentionally provoking an unnecessary emotional response from Absol (whether it was Absol's plan or not).

 

[Sheepbro]

I feel like neither of AT or vegi is particularly wolfy, but a lynch on either of them could be useful. Not sure what to do :/

AT: Don't take this wrong, but you are making this game annoying to play. Your aggressive style of posting (which you get reads out of that I don't really see) is tiresome to read and makes me want to drop out of the game or just not read your posts. Sure, that is not a reason to lynch you per se, but if I have null read on two people and killing one will give reads on others, I'll go for the one that annoys me the most. I think a lot of people are in the same boat as me.
Also, didn't you say something about contradictions within posts being scummy?
"I have identified between 1-3 wolves with the upmost confidence"
Good job, not only in one post, in one sentence, and a short one at that! Better yet, it's the first sentence of your post!

PM: Sigh. I really don't like that post. It seems to me like you're trying to hide behind the AT vs vegi argument by saying "I can't get around it", which is the complaint people have been making about the whole fiasco. This seems very scummy to me.
You also bring up an issue that wasn't spoken about for a while in the same post. Apparently you're not too fussed about it. Maybe you didn't notice, by the way, but people have been discussing other stuff from time to time too, even though AT is trying to block it out.

 

[Absoltrainer]

Also, didn't you say something about contradictions within posts being scummy?
"I have identified between 1-3 wolves with the upmost confidence"
Good job, not only in one post, in one sentence, and a short one at that! Better yet, it's the first sentence of your post!

How is it a contradiction?

 

[Sheepbro]

How is it a contradiction?

1-3 means 1, 2 or 3. That means you're sure of one, and think one or two others are wolves too. If you're not sure about 2/3 of your suspects, it is not with the upmost confidence.

 

[Absoltrainer]

1-3 means 1, 2 or 3. That means you're sure of one, and think one or two others are wolves too. If you're not sure about 2/3 of your suspects, it is not with the upmost confidence.

I have the upmost confidence that either 1, 2, or 3 wolves will be brought down by what I said. Not a contradiction.

 

[Sheepbro]

I have the upmost confidence that either 1, 2, or 3 wolves will be brought down by what I said. Not a contradiction.

YOU'RE PUTTING WORDS IN M- I mean, err, your mouth. Wait what. OK so basically you just either misquoted yourself or rephrased what you said. "I have indentified"=/="wolves will be brought down". The sentence structure isn't even close to the same.
Point remains that three options doesn't really show upmost confidence.
Whatever though, I can't be bothered discussing word choice with you, cuz I should be scared of getting lynched right?

 

[Absoltrainer]

YOU'RE PUTTING WORDS IN M- I mean, err, your mouth. Wait what. OK so basically you just either misquoted yourself or rephrased what you said. "I have indentified"=/="wolves will be brought down". The sentence structure isn't even close to the same.
Point remains that three options doesn't really show upmost confidence.
Whatever though, I can't be bothered discussing word choice with you, cuz I should be scared of getting lynched right?

Why should you be scared of getting lynched? You have no votes against you.

 

[scorri]

scorri doesn't like the way sheepbro is acting like now. It feels like he is purposely misunderstanding Absoltrainer and trying to make him look bad perhaps to try and get him lynched. scorri would like to point a suspicious finger at sheepbro.

 

[Sheepbro]

Why should you be scared of getting lynched? You have no votes against you.

Because you have "with upmost confidence indentified" one to three people as wolves and are pushing for lunches on them. Or was it that you have "the upmost confidence they will be brought down"? You didn't make up your mind I think. Anyway, I should really not argue with you, before you get your panties in a twist and write an essay on me too. Or wait, am I giving huge reads and was it you plan all aloooooooong to get someone to notice you said something weird and am I suspicious because of that? I'm never sure with you, bit it sure is a blast playing with you because of that =D=D
Dede dede sarcasm.

@scorri meh, I don't think that I would try that this late in the day on someone who is getting wagoned anyway, if I were a wolf. I'm not misunderstanding him by the way, he's just saying weird things and twisting his own words.

 

[Absoltrainer]

Because you have "with upmost confidence indentified" one to three people as wolves and are pushing for lunches on them. Or was it that you have "the upmost confidence they will be brought down"? You didn't make up your mind I think. Anyway, I should really not argue with you, before you get your panties in a twist and write an essay on me too. Or wait, am I giving huge reads and was it you plan all aloooooooong to get someone to notice you said something weird and am I suspicious because of that? I'm never sure with you, bit it sure is a blast playing with you because of that =D=D
Dede dede sarcasm.

What?
17171717171716

 

[Sheepbro]

What?
17171717171716

OK, I'm pleasantly surprised. I was checking to see if you would react aggressively to every single person that said something that could be interpreted as some sort of attack. Apparently you don't, so I'm not going to vote for you quite yet, seems like you might be a less annoying poster after all.
To say what I was saying without the fluff: You misquoted yourself, "I have indentified 1-3 wolves with the upmost confidence" is not even close to the same as "I have the upmost confidence that 1-3 wolves will be brought down by what I said"
But again, whatever, I don't really care that much about what words you choose.

Oh and something I forgot scorri: I'm most definitely not trying to make him look bad or try to get him lynched, I would've voted for him if I wanted him lynched.
If you're wondering who I want lynched, I'll admit that if this game didn't have 45 players I wouldn't want anyone to be lynched just yet.