Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[Diaz]

http://pokegym.net/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=171226

Take a look at that list. Seriously. Spend some time combing through it. Everyone near the bottom should be looking to post more. Our inactive list right now is huge. I've seen a few players be called on inactivity, but the only real way to get a grasp of how many inactives we have is by looking at that list. Click on a few of the lower numbers near the bottom to get a real feel for how little some people have contributed. Even people with 3 posts have: a sign up post, a role confirmation post. and a filler post early on. This isn't acceptable if we want the town to have any chance this game.


Mostly unrelated second point:

This kind of ties in with the Tables issue. TBH, I only skimmed most of that exchange, but from what I understand, he made mention of the chance of a third faction / wolf pregame talk and got jumped on for it. IMO there's probably either a third faction or one or more Indys. In a game this size, it seems probable, so I'm not sure why people were so worked up at him for that. As far as the wolf pre-game talk thing - I don't think we have enough info to know if the wolves were able to talk pre-game. I've been a part of at least 1 game where the rules said the wolves could only talk at night, and that just wasn't true. (IMO an example of bad modding.)

I'd like to take a second to address any Indys/third parties. Games recently have been heavily biased toward wolves. The voting rules and game set-ups have been lopsided in favor of the wolves. That means that the wolves could run away with this one. This isn't in your best interest for you, my reader, as a non-wolf. Even though you are not a townie, you should play this game trying to help the townies. Otherwise, a dominant wolf victory is more likely.

On the same note, wolves: this is your game to lose. Indys should be a priority for you, because the odds of a town win are low, and an indy/third party win is the only alternative to you winning in that sort of situation.

Am I shamelessly trying to play the wolves and indys against each other? Yes. But my logic is sound. It really is in the best interest of those non-town factions to aggressively target each other.

 

[desufnoc]

Honestly, seeing AT's cocky rant, I took that quote to mean something like: "I don't fear wolves, wolves fear me". :nonono:

From a quick search, he started playing in WW V here on the 'Gym. He has modded WW IX, XII, and XV. I would say that he has experience in playing Werewolf.
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Although rather aggressive, AT did bring up a lot of dirt on vegitalian. For anyone that skipped over the argument, at least try to read through some, if not all, of it. If vegitalian does flip Wolf, we'll have a good head start on finding more wolves by looking at his interactions and who tried defending him. If vegitalian flips Town, we still have a good start as far as reads go.

As far as pointing fingers goes, I'm a bit suspicious of PF5 and the rest of the inactives (desufnoc, HoM, dave, G landers, and the list goes on). PF5 has made one alright post against Tables (#302), returned again to point fingers at Vablakes and Rhino in post #326 (both of whom were already under suspicion), and then disappeared. This "posting a few times early on then disappearing when the questioning starts" just bugs me, and has been his play the last few games where he was a Wolf

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Wow, "Absoltrainer is either a Townie, a Wolf, or an Indie". That sure narrows things down :lol:

I would love to post more, its just that I have nothing to really add. If you look at my past game on here and on 6P I do not really talk much day one and just do a lot of observing. Although I have played in a few games I believe I am still very new to this game. I feel that not posting is better than posting a whole lot of nothing even if it looks scummy. "At least tell us who you think is a wolf and why?", says the next person to reply to my post. I do not have a lot of time to take notes and usually go off gut feelings. Technically I could tell you my picks for who i think is the most scummy but it would be just a stab in the dark because I have no evidence. I do want to add that I have read every post and that if somebody wants my opinion, I will happily share my thoughts.

 

[Kayle]

^ Please do share. Even just a summary of your thoughts would be great. The more opinions we've got, the better. As a townie you have nothing to hide (except, MAYBE, a PR).

 

[ProHawk]

Rhino, I will not allow any fence-sitters this game. You need to place a vote on whomever you feel is the most scummy. Your posts after being under scrutiny from your HD vote have been weak, stance-less. I don't want to see one person end this day without a vote placed, if you do, you will be my first vote D2.

Vegetalian, I applaud your work in making a counter response. However, you still maintain inconsistencies that trouble me.

My main concern with you is the motivation behind your connections-list. Here are the only motivations I can come up with.

A) You wanted to show everyone that you were putting in work to the game. Scum-Motivation
B) You found a connection that you wanted to point out. Town-Motivation
C) You wanted a central location to keep your thoughts. Town-Motivation
D) You wanted to set the stage for a future attack/case. Scum-Motivation
E) You wanted to give the wolves a chance to make additional WIFOM. Scum-Motivation

Your stated reason. ---->

I'd like to post the following information, which should help us when we start uncovering roles. ... Specifically, if someone is revealed to be a wolf, it should provide us with some likely targets down the line. ... Please let me know if I've missed anyone, and keep in mind, wolves may defend townies in future posts to throw off the scent.

In your original post, I can see A, B, D, and E motivations in it. I don't think its a good place to keep notes, because finding it is difficult with the way this forum is setup.

A - You added multiple people into your post that did not pertain to any of the other motivations.
B - You pointed out the connection between Pokemonplayer101 and Vablakes.
D - Absoltrainer's name was the only other one that differed from the connection you already verbally pointed out, and you did attack him with what you found in a later post.
E - This motivation came from your ending statement "wolves may defend townies in future posts". Therefore, your centralized post could have been to show the wolves how to strategically plan how to "throw off the scent".

That leaves three scum-motivations to one town-motivation. Your original stated reason makes zero sense to me as town because you could have posted it after we started uncovering roles, not hundreds of posts prior to any roles being uncovered.

If I have left out any of your unspoken motivations, I would like to hear them from you now so I can adjust my read if necessary.

This leads me to why I am worried about the inconsistency you are desperately holding onto.

The Inconsistency:

This is for anyone (Diaz comes to mind as one who specifically asked) who has doubts on whether Absol really defended Vablakes, or if he was using it as a case for HD being scum. No one yet has quoted the offending post, so let's take a closer look at it.

Disclaimer: I have edited the post to remove a wall of irrelevant text. If you feel I am mis-repping or taking out of context, feel free to click the link and read yourself.

[Quotes Vablakes]

How is that role-fishing? Because he said "what roles do we expect to see in this game?" And he thinks that power roles are going to be slipping and saying their role in response? The seer isn't going to say there might be seers in the game, the detective isn't going to say there might be detectives in the game, and anyone with a unique role not seen before isn't going to say it either. If Valblakes had PUSHED the topic to try and get roles, I would call it role fishing.


When you look at it all together, here is what you have:


-Cocky, nonchalant humorous entrance, sets the tone of the post to be calm, collected, and solid

-Goes straight for a new player, bases it on shoddy evidence, and doesn't even cite the post in question? Considering he spent all this time typing all the points below the accusation, he should have time to quote the post of the accused.

-Throws out a wall of fluff consisting of advice 90% of the players already know. He tries to come off as smart, useful and more importantly friendly.

The opening and ending both read like he is being so blatant about it. He wrote it so it screams "I'm being cool and non-chalant" and screams "I'm helpful and friendly" and in between is a vote for a player using werewolf terminoligy, but without citing the original post.

Vote: Human Destroyer

Scummu Post is scummy.

Now what is the subject of this entire post? - A Case to Vote Human Destroyer

The issue here is Vegetalian sees it as a defense of Vablakes of which he is entitled to his own opinion on the matter. However, it's important that the truth is made clear because it's scum that wants to keep truth in a shroud of darkness.

It is clear from the post that the defense is of the action that Vablakes took, not his alignment. This is key. No where does Absoltrainer even hint that Vablakes is town or leaning town. The bold in the above quote sums up exactly why Absoltrainer defended Vablakes' action. It was to point out that HD attacked a new player based on shoddy evidence.

Vegetalian, you say that because of this defense, Absol "alleviated suspicion" that several people voted for him due to his role-fishing. Did you actually count the number of people that voted for Vablakes after he made his offending post? I only counted one. Human_Destroyer. The other thing I find interesting is I was the first one to say that Vablakes post was not an attempt at role-fishing with a vote on HD, but I don't make it onto the list as a defender of Vablakes.

So, this is my concern. Could you have made a mistake and thought that Absol was indeed defending Vablakes as a townie, and missed that I did the exact same thing? Sure, its not out of the realm of possibilities. But the thing is, you are still hanging onto this without bothering to go back and check the information yourself. Are you hoping that your band of anti-Absol supporters would be enough to keep people from doing the needed research?

If there is another offending post from Absol that I missed, please quote it for me. Or if you happened to find more people than HD that voted for Vablakes because of his role-fishing with Absol subsequently defending please show me what I missed.

Finally, to answer your questions.

I find him posting his lack of fear for the wolves something that scum would generally avoid (not that they wouldn't use it for WIFOM) but it's saying exactly what people are concluding that A) you are a wolf yourself or B) you are claiming a power role. For part A - Wolves would never want this thought to cross anyone's mind, even in passing. B - Absol is smarter than that. So my take on it is pretty much in line with DC725.

Secondly, on his experience, Absol has a bit of it from what I understand. What I have seen from Absol's past game has been very calculated, well thought out and planned play as an indy. This hap-hazard ranting and battle doesn't seem like it was calculated or pre-planned, which suggests to me he is on our side. Just my two cents on my read of Absol.

 

[thunderjolt]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would a townie go for these sorts of tactics? We townies don't want to lynch someone by riling them up and making them make mistakes. That's a very wolfy tactic and not remotely a town-aligned one as I see it.

I always thought that was a valid tactic for all sides? I mean, it seems to me like a wolf would slip up under pressure more than a townie would. However, unless you are saying that that is a bad tactic to use against newer players, if so, then I agree. We cannot pound new guys into the ground, but is vegitalian new?

Could someone provide a brief summery of what's been going on? I just don't have time right now to keep up with the thread at the rate it's moving. I'm mostly interested in what the case against vegetalian is.

Lots of innactives. AT and Vegi are sparring, with AT out arguing him while at the same time looking a little “bully-ish.” HD’s case sometimes gets brought up, but seems to be vastly ignored. JP, I don’t even know what’s going on. Vablakes’s case seems to be that we’ve “somewhat” accepted his defense or at least given him the benefit of the doubt. AT and Kayle are posting major walls. Personally, I’d want them to just post one major pointed list so their accuse-ees can respond better than what vegi tried to provide.

As for the case on Vegi, reading AT's first and maybe second posts on the matter basically gets to the argument.

@every avid writer person out there: may I ask that, if you are going to make a long post on someone, you please make some sort of bulleted list or summary such as the one prohawk provided in the beginning of 524. Gigantic walls are difficult to read as well as respond to. AT—I suggest you do this if you have any hope of getting some sort of response out of Vegi that is better than the mess of a response that he provided.

 

[desufnoc]

^ Please do share. Even just a summary of your thoughts would be great. The more opinions we've got, the better. As a townie you have nothing to hide (except, MAYBE, a PR).

This is what I keep thinking about when reading this thread. I will try and do a better job of posting what I am thinking as soon as it happens from here on out.

- No way town is going to have a majority lynch at this rate

- AT and Vegi's posts was very annoying to read. AT keeps saying that he has nothing to fear of the wolves does have my interest. I don't think AT to be a wolf though.

- The jewel sisters are wasting time pointing at each other.

- Really wonder what should be done about Crimsonsky.

Once again these are all gut feelings. No evidence, so please don't cut me down.
Town:
AT
Kayle
Prohawk

Wolf:
StrongRhino

Null:
Vablakes
Vegitalion

Those are the only people that come to my head right away. I would assume everyone else would be a null if I don't even recall you.

 

[Benzo]

I would like to fix this:

UNVOTE: Tables

In the bolding on the post I made I must of accidently back spaced and deleted the "[" symbol- which I did check onto why my unvote did not bold (didn't edit the post, looked to see where and why the bolding didn't stick) thus, my mistake in typing and back-spacing and definitly not going to edit the post.
My apologies.

I have little time to post, I am taking the time to read through things again, and working on some mod stuff- so this posting is on the "I didn't provide much info and this post is pointless" side of things, but I will provide some thoughts for certain in my next posting with what reads I have.

Like I said, priorities and time spending- I think that reading through a second time to make sure of my thoughts, so please bare with me on this.

Until tomorrow- night yall

 

[DragonClyne725]

Why mount a huge defense against vegitalian over listing players that defend/attack another? I think it's helpful and might be useful to us later on. It's awfully scummy to defend yourself against something as silly as a list. There's not much of a reason to do that so early in the game.

The point was that vegitalian posted people as "Defending" a person or "Claiming" a person to be Town/Wolf, when said person didn't necessarily agree with the statement. Vegitalian didn't defend himself at first, responding to AT's attacks by threatening to vote for AT. AT proceeded to dissect his posts further. Vegitalian responded to this by pointing fingers at ProHawk and Kayle, which led to AT questioning him further. It may have started as AT just disagreeing with the list (as did other people, including myself), but things escalated very quickly.

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http://pokegym.net/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=171226

Take a look at that list. Seriously. Spend some time combing through it. Everyone near the bottom should be looking to post more. Our inactive list right now is huge. I've seen a few players be called on inactivity, but the only real way to get a grasp of how many inactives we have is by looking at that list. Click on a few of the lower numbers near the bottom to get a real feel for how little some people have contributed. Even people with 3 posts have: a sign up post, a role confirmation post. and a filler post early on. This isn't acceptable if we want the town to have any chance this game.

100% agree. With 45 people, we can win this if we have everyone on board and participating to the best of their ability. If you can post, great. Post. But if you can't (ton of schoolwork, illness, whatever), at least make a post saying "Hey, I'm sick" or "Hey, I have a ton of schoolwork", so that people at least have something to comment on rather then not hearing anything at all.

And if you're a Townie who is sitting back letting others play the game for you, think about this. If a third of the people here are scum, then out of 45 there are roughly 15. If even 10 of said 15 are active and online, they can easily lead the other Townies however they want. Basically, strength is in numbers. The more Townies we have who are actively contributing and watching out for scum, the greater the chance of scum being found.

That ends my little inactivity rant, goodnight everybody

 

[eclipse]

With two pages, it should be easier to quote things. If I take a section from a longer post, I'll link the original (I'm aware it's redundant, but it's better than me cropping things and not mentioning it). If I come back to something like six pages of posts and a lot of things I want to comment on, I'll see if I can think of a better way to get my points across.

The summary:

- ProHawk and I agree that Crimsonsky isn't a priority at the moment
- AbsolTrainer's emotion is overboard, IMO, and while I'm wary about his supposed lack of concern about the votes on him, I don't think he's worth lynching today
- Between AbsolTrainer and vegitalian, I'd prefer a vegitalian lynch because a response that was typed up outside of the previous, emotional argument ended with what seemed like a subtle smear (and smearing one's opponent isn't what comes to mind when I think of town-sided defenses)
- I am not a fan of excessive emotion or absolutes that aren't from the host
- Kayle sees his vote in a different light than mine, and uses associative reads (the latter is a pet peeve of mine)
- The "possible bus" post by Human Destroyer makes me extremely uneasy, because it felt like it was implying his opinion rather than directly stating it
- PMysterious has still contributed nothing of note; thus, my vote will stay put
- StrongRhino's last post contained a logical jump and a list that doesn't explain why people are in the FoS category.
- I have a life, and think that discussing a hypothetical third party is a waste of time right now
- Something else is bothering me, but I can't express it in terms of posts or solid reasoning. My inspiration comes when I'm doing mundane things like taking a bath, so I might have a better idea of what it is tomorrow.

To make it official:

Unvote Vablakes
Vote PMysterious

(if this is still wrong, then I request an example of a correct unvote/vote be put into the first post)

The rest is a detailed explanation for the summary above, complete with quotes. I can't find a way to spoiler it for brevity.

---

Actually no one asked me to tone it down (until your post), they just called me a "little troll-child on a playground" and blamed me for the halt in discussion. The latter of course is not my fault in the least, and I won't accept blame for people watching rather than talking. People would rather I drop my argument and try to witch hunt people based on nothing, I don’t post for the sake of posting and no, I will not let up on vegitalian. He is the enemy and must be defeated.

Kayle calling you what he did was an indirect way of doing so. I think that if your case is solid, then you shouldn't have to resort to being so aggressive that someone like me has to state that you're messing up the thread.

We all need to understand that he is dangerous to our victory. He cannot live to end-game because there is no way to gain any concrete information on him.You can launch a crusade against me for wanting to lynch CrimsonSky based on his role claim alone, but its the smart play. Hopefully we won't need to take it to that point and can lynch the wolves before we need to take care of CrimsonSky (assuming that he is in-fact not a wolf), but the fact remains that he is dangerous.

(Original) Fair enough. I think Crimsonsky isn't a priority right now; whether I agree with your assessment to lynch Crimsonsky in the future remains to be seen.

Assuming jpulice IS scum, which I already know is a bad assumption to make, but ASSUMING that, Absoltrainer reads strong scum to me, and otherwise reads low-medium scum. My reasoning is here. The post itself isn't important -but scroll up. Immediately before this otherwise very abrupt subject change, jpulice was doing his acting-weird-and-trying-to-come-off-as-aggressive-townie thing. IF jpulice is scum and IF he was pressuring me because he felt threatened by me, then Absoltrainer might have tried to change the subject forcefully to defend a valuable ally, then gone on a massive two-page tirade against Vegitalian in order to try to drive the discussion out of our minds. This is an argument based on assumption, so I can't act on it, but it's one that I can't help but find very interesting. If it had just been the sudden "I'm going to vote Vegitalian" and then nothing else, I might not have been so intrigued. It's that, in combination with last night's argument, that has me worried.

If jpulice is not scum, I still read moderate scum on Absoltrainer just because so far as I've been able to see his votes have all been "I'm late on the bandwagon guys!" except Vegitalian, and I had mentioned twice already that I found him suspicious (I don't think I'm the only one). Further, AT's posts are all combatative and are either directly responding to other members in a primarily defensive way, or trying to rile them up in a more hostile aggressive way. He posted a fairly well-intentioned post that, taken alone, isn't fishy, but Vablakes is such an easy target and there were already FOUR other votes on him in that page. Similar logic followed for AT's vote on Human_Destroyer; it was one of the first major scumhunting posts we had, but think about where the discussion has taken us from there and how disorienting it must have been for the people H_D might have intended to help (if he was town).

All in all AT's play is easy for me to place as strong wolf play, but harder for me to imagine as strong town play. I don't like anything about that.

(Original) I'm not a fan of associative scum reads, and I was actually interested in vegitalian's reaction to you, not the other way 'round, but thanks!

I am surprised by the level of success Vegitalian had at making Absol look bad. It's clear that there is an anti-bully complex rolling around here. That's fine. You don't like someone who can out-argue, or is more of a logical thinker than you. I can understand that, but don't let it cloud your judgement of what is really going on here.

It's pretty clear here that the back and forth from Absol and Vegitalian has made many of you gloss over their posts.

These are just the few to be vocal about it. While I don't think Absol's approach was the best, I completely understand where he is coming from, and it's not from scum-motivation. I find it interesting that the most critical of Absol are those of you who verbally cue your distaste which tells me you haven't delved deeply into the heart of the issue.

I recommend that you go re-read Vegitalian's posts Post #384 with Post #391 and make your own logical case, setting emotions aside.

Specifically Kayle, there are a few things you need to clarify for me.

1) Is nitpicking scummy or not?
2) Why aren't you voting for Absoltrainer?
3) I need you to argue the case for Vegitalians innocence, specifically about why you were wrong about his first scummy posts that made you vote him before you unvoted in disgust.
4) Please define "hard" targets vs "easy" targets. Are scum hard or easy targets and why?

(Original, because nested quotes don't appear above) I had to deal with a string of games where arguments got too aggressive, and the fallout from those games was really bad. I'm here to play a game, not get people angry because I wasn't able to tell the difference between aggressive scumhunting and genuinely irritating other people. Emotion is a null tell; thus, I refuse to believe that AbsolTrainer's response CANNOT be scum-motivated. This does not mean that vegitalian's defense HAS to be town-motivated either. The only absolutes in my mind at the moment come from information directly from the host.

I was going to make this point when I got back myself, but QFT anyway. For those of you that have read Shakespeare, it is something that happens rather a lot in his books and plays. Someone says something really important,

It's even possible that both of them are wolves.

Reason: The Common Tells Page.

Specifically, direct your attention to this tell: "Asking for excessive explanation from co-mafia." I know these aren't exactly the best tells in the world, (since, well, they're published) that doesn't mean they never work. That argument was drawn out way longer than it should have been, and I have a problem with that. I think it's possible the wolves set that whole argument up to specifically take attention away from the jpulice accusation.

There are 5 possibilities I can see here:

1. Vegitalian made the post, knowing someone would get mad about something, and Absoltrainer took the bait.

2. Absoltrainer saw the post, saw that he could use it to his advantage to create an argument, then started attacking Vegitalian.

3. They both planned for Vegitalian to make that post and for Absoltrainer to respond in that way.

4. Neither of them are really scum and are just really mad at each other.

5. One or both of Vegitalian and Absoltrainer are scum trying to implicate jpulice, a townie, even more.

(Original) I don't like this kind of speculation. It feels like a subtle attempt to paint both of them as scum, without directly stating it. If you think they're bussing each other, then say so directly.

I'll be back in a couple of days. I have a final to study for, so don't expect too much (if any posting from me until then), but I leave you with this.

1.) If you discard my posts based on the fact that was aggressive, then you are wrong, and hurtin the town.
2.) You should actually read my posts in detail and discuss the content not just the tone of my posts. I am very interested how we are talking about the manner in which I spoke, not of what I said. See how the conversation is no longer about whether Vegitilian is a wolf based on what he said, but because I was mean and aggressive.
3.) Go back and look at Vablakes, Vegetilian. and Kayle's posts and really read them in relation to each other and my own.

Also before someone jumps on this. I am not posting this because two people voted for me. I don't really care, I'm not feeling "pressured" at all. Finally I am compiling a list, and in a couple of days when I come back, I will post this list, assuming my thoery lays out, I have the identities of multiple wolves. These identitites do not nesseasarly include Vablakes, Vegetilian. and Kayle, but are relavant to them and this situation.
1.) I will not post this information early, don't bother asking, I will ignore all requests
2.) I'm not witholding this information because I am trying to buy time or prevent you guys from voting me. Again, I'm not feeling pressured at all, I am witholding it while I solidfy my case.

3.) I cannot stress this enough...read ALL the posts thoruoughy and in detail...take note of what you see....

later

Yes, I read through that mess, and reading through it was NOT fun. I do not care for that disclaimer; if you truly weren't worried about two votes, why bother mentioning them? Lastly, I don't mind waiting, as long as you don't post your case an hour before deadline. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on everything else.

I found JewelQuest's post regarding AbsolTrainer vs. vegitalian right after the post I quoted amusing.

Questions for everyone else:
Why would AbsolTrainer post that he's not afraid of wolves? I feel like that's worth consideration.
How experienced is A/T in this game? How has he played in other games?

(Original) I felt a little bit better about vegitalian after his wall of response, and then those questions cropped up and dispelled that feeling. I think there's far too much focus on AbsolTrainer's lack of wolf fear (that's a null tell in my mind), and I really don't care what his past games look like; those questions read like a smear against AbsolTrainer. Given that response, I won't object to a vegitalian lynch.

I'm not sure on the whole AT vs vegi whinefest yet. I am sure glad AT won't be cluttering for a tiny while.
Glad you joined IS, just a few more left I think.

I wanted to mention, as of the last votecount we had 23 votes total. That's right, the minimum voting count to lynch, and we have it in total. Inb4 no lynch?

Other than that, I don't think I can really say many useful things at the moment, my reads (from "practice") seem to only get interesting after real hard evidence, ie flips.
I'm keeping my eyes open for big scumtells though and I'll share them if I find them.

Also, it's "I couldn't care less", not "I could care less". If you're going to hyperbole "I don't care", please do it right.

I'm interested in your thoughts on everything else. Don't be afraid to share stuff because you think it's insignificant; let the rest of us decide that.

I've pointed out now that I handle votes differently from how I'm apparently expected to. I've only got one at a time, guys, and I hold it close to my chest until I really feel ready to use it. It bothers me to have a vote randomly sticking out on someone we're not even talking about anymore unless I ACTUALLY want to talk about him. No one's discussing HD; no one's discussing jpulice; now we're discussing you and vegitalian, and I was ready to move on from vegitalian and was preparing to start talking about you instead. Thus the unvote. I don't blame you for not getting that since it's evidently not the norm.

(Original) In my opinion, a vote represents who you want to get information out of (early) and who you think is a wolf (late). About the only time I'd hold back on a vote is if I wanted someone lynched, but they are close to hammer, and a lot of the day phase remains. This is why I don't care for posts that threaten to vote, but do not do so - it's like saying that you want someone lynched/information, but don't want to stand by it. I don't agree with your vote mindset, but it is not my place to tell you how to play; thus, I will keep this in mind when reading future posts from you.

I've felt sick, and sort of skimmed over, but what really stood out to me was AT saying he isn't afraid of wolves. Those words imply he is a wolf himself (or a selfish doctor that can protect himself)

FoS:
Absol Trainer
Vablakes
Human Destroyer
Sandslash7

That's quite a logical jump to make regarding AbsolTrainer's alignment.

Guess I'll take this. I really don't care if anyone else does it.

1. I would think Absoltrainer is either cocky town, BP Townie, wolf, or indie. That' my guess.

2. You probably haven't noticed, but A/T is a Vet at this game and his playstyle differs from game to game. I suggest looking at the past games for how he plays. I might look in there myself if a lot of the players weren't new and easily able to be sniped by past experience comparison. Oh well, what can you do sometimes?

The answer to the first question is a non-answer; that's everything AbsolTrainer could possibly be, short of the host. The second answer contributes nothing, IMO.

http://pokegym.net/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=171226

Take a look at that list. Seriously. Spend some time combing through it. Everyone near the bottom should be looking to post more. Our inactive list right now is huge. I've seen a few players be called on inactivity, but the only real way to get a grasp of how many inactives we have is by looking at that list. Click on a few of the lower numbers near the bottom to get a real feel for how little some people have contributed. Even people with 3 posts have: a sign up post, a role confirmation post. and a filler post early on. This isn't acceptable if we want the town to have any chance this game.


Mostly unrelated second point:

This kind of ties in with the Tables issue. TBH, I only skimmed most of that exchange, but from what I understand, he made mention of the chance of a third faction / wolf pregame talk and got jumped on for it. IMO there's probably either a third faction or one or more Indys. In a game this size, it seems probable, so I'm not sure why people were so worked up at him for that. As far as the wolf pre-game talk thing - I don't think we have enough info to know if the wolves were able to talk pre-game. I've been a part of at least 1 game where the rules said the wolves could only talk at night, and that just wasn't true. (IMO an example of bad modding.)

I'd like to take a second to address any Indys/third parties. Games recently have been heavily biased toward wolves. The voting rules and game set-ups have been lopsided in favor of the wolves. That means that the wolves could run away with this one. This isn't in your best interest for you, my reader, as a non-wolf. Even though you are not a townie, you should play this game trying to help the townies. Otherwise, a dominant wolf victory is more likely.

On the same note, wolves: this is your game to lose. Indys should be a priority for you, because the odds of a town win are low, and an indy/third party win is the only alternative to you winning in that sort of situation.

Am I shamelessly trying to play the wolves and indys against each other? Yes. But my logic is sound. It really is in the best interest of those non-town factions to aggressively target each other.

Forgive me for living in a weird time zone. I can't post at the rate of everyone else because the continental US is in bed/getting ready for bed when I'm around, and I don't have time to constantly check for new replies. I do not care for the wolf/third-party bit at all; my role PM isn't written in a way that tells me whether a third party exists, and discussing whether or not one exists does not find wolves.

 

[Crimsonsky]

I really like Eclipse right now. Strong scumhunting/Investigation/research, along with pro-town post setup.

you aren't just trying to get onto Eclipse's good side now, are you, cause I really see no point for you to out this in this post.

Crimsonsky plays WW/mafia games on Serenes Forest where roles like the one he is claiming is common practice. This has huge implications with Crimsonsky's claim in that he would know exactly how to gambit this role successfully. This combined with the potential "I saved our Power Roles from nastiness" cred he would get (and has gotten) have me more than slightly worried. This fact (his experience) alone bumps the probability of his claim from being concerned townie to scum gambit up a few notches.

Luster - Town. Seems to be fairly new to not understand how scum try their hardest to gain town-cred. Doubtful scum would attack me on that point.

@Prohawk
these two bits of the posts have something in common, that is you trying to discredit the said user, it also happens that both of the said users had a vote on you at that time. Now why is it that it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me?

Now to address the Elephant in the room
I have read the entire Vegi VS Absol fight
and here is what it sounded like to me
Vegi brings up a cool point, Absol gets irritated and counters which seemed incredibly scummy
then Vegi tries to push down more points which seemed like Protown but the Absol goes in and points flaws in th etheory after which Vegi crashes.
I am thinking if either one is scum, it is more likely to be Vegi
but I like where my vote s now.

 

[Human Destroyer]

"(Original) I don't like this kind of speculation. It feels like a subtle attempt to paint both of them as scum, without directly stating it. If you think they're bussing each other, then say so directly."

(Sorry I can't quote this, I'm on my phone)

Anyway, eclipse, I do think at least one of them is scum. I still think they were either a) covering for JP (at least one), b) bussing (both), or c) neither (having an argument that, at least I felt, made no strong town sense)

I'm pretty sure I said that I feel one of them is scum and that I believe a and/or b is the case. I thought I made it pretty clear that, ESPECIALLY if JP is scum, one or both of vegetalian and Absoltrainer are scum.

 

[Sheepbro]

I'm interested in your thoughts on everything else. Don't be afraid to share stuff because you think it's insignificant; let the rest of us decide that.

Oh it's not that I'm afraid, it's mostly that I hate useless posts. I've talked with more experienced players about reads I had on an ongoing game and they noted that my reads got significantly better as the game went on, so that's why I'm holding off a bit for now. I'll see if I can find something interesting later today/tonight.
I've actually got something at the moment but I'm going to hold off for now and see if the player's behaviour persists.


Cheers for making you posts a whole lot more readable!

 

[The Bank]

Just wanted to say that I've received my role and will be looking over the posts!

 

[homeofmew]

Hi ALL! I am here just got my role today sorry, I am currently reading all the pages, but yes i am here. I will put in my vote after I read all the pages sounds fair right?
I was 3rd on the replacement list so I didn't check he gym cause I didn't think I'd make in in this quick.

I would also like to see revenge from last game also since only 1 wolf was killed.
Man I was such a shady V-townie xD

here's some things i learned from last game.

The Seer Died Day 2 which they saw into a wolf but got eaten before they were able to vote. Also wolves do not vote for themselves or accuse each other.

Yes, there is plenty of time to speak up on my part. I can't post much in the mornings if at all so I might try to contribute during the afternoons after 4:00 PM at best. Anyway, my belief is my belief. There is nothing that changes that. Its just an opinion that I stated. Nothing more. I'll let homeofmew go this time. I'll deal with him later.

"slaps homeofmew"

Unvote: homeofmew

HER* :3

 

[ProHawk]

Crimsonsky plays WW/mafia games on Serenes Forest where roles like the one he is claiming is common practice. This has huge implications with Crimsonsky's claim in that he would know exactly how to gambit this role successfully. This combined with the potential "I saved our Power Roles from nastiness" cred he would get (and has gotten) have me more than slightly worried. This fact (his experience) alone bumps the probability of his claim from being concerned townie to scum gambit up a few notches.

@Prohawk
these two bits of the posts have something in common, that is you trying to discredit the said user, it also happens that both of the said users had a vote on you at that time. Now why is it that it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me?

Now to address the Elephant in the room
I have read the entire Vegi VS Absol fight
and here is what it sounded like to me
Vegi brings up a cool point, Absol gets irritated and counters which seemed incredibly scummy
then Vegi tries to push down more points which seemed like Protown but the Absol goes in and points flaws in the theory after which Vegi crashes.
I am thinking if either one is scum, it is more likely to be Vegi
but I like where my vote s now.

I wouldn't expect you to understand or agree with my reasoning as you are the one making the claim/gambit.

Saying that my posts discredit the user assumes that said users had any credit to begin with. Honestly, your vote on me is quite scum-tastic when you break it down.

I am not done catching up yet, but there s something I should get out there

the fact is I should not be targeted at night

if you still want to target me, consider it your own loss

I look at the thread and my role PM, and I see no such info
##Vote: Prohawk

and what is this plenty of info you have, care to share?

So you voted for me because I said there was info (which there was and which I explained clearly)? To which you reply after I share my information...

@Prohawk
the thing is, this is a 45 player game, not some 11 player game, where getting info on just a few players is enough to get the game moving

So in your voting post you said there was "no such info". In your response post you state that there was info, but just not enough to get the game moving. This is fitting the situation to your argument. You didn't even comment on any of my reasons, nor acknowledge their validity or invalidity. You only said that it would be sufficient in a low player game, but not in a large player game. Scummy.

While we are here, lets look at some real commonality. In every single one of your posts, regardless of the content I am referenced at least once, directly or indirectly. Why is that?

The other intriguing point is that despite mentioning me in every post you don't seem to be probing me to try and find out if I am really scum or not. You have your argument on me, and nothing can change your mind apparently. According to you, Absol was "incredibly scummy" and Vegitalian "crashes" yet maintain that I am scum with your vote. Scummy.

If you are scum, leaving your vote on me without caring as to whether or not I am actually scum makes sense because you already know that I am town and you don't have the motivation to find out my true alignment.

So, CrimsonSky, I have a few questions that need answering.

1) Where have you attempted to find out my true alignment?
2) Do you agree or disagree with my post that you claim "discredits" you in which I explained in greater detail HERE? Why or why-not?
3) Why do you consider me more scummy than Absol or Vegitalian?
4) Because your main initial vote on me (which hasn't moved) was due to me wanting to get out of RVS with information that you couldn't see, I would like you to present a case as to why staying in RVS is more beneficial to the town than leaving it. You already mentioned that scum can slip in RVS, but I want to hear specific examples, because I don't buy scum slipping while making a random vote.

 

[SMP88]

I would also like to see revenge from last game also since only 1 wolf was killed.
Man I was such a shady V-townie xD

The Seer Died Day 2 which they saw into a wolf but got eaten before they were able to vote. Also wolves do not vote for themselves or accuse each other.

Saying that the wolves do not vote/accuse each other is a very dangerous line of thinking. You should always assume that the wolves will do whatever it takes to stay alive and appear town. If that means going after other wolves they'll do that, especially in a game this large where there should be something like 10+ wolves. Voting off a wolf or 2 early to appear pro-town for the late game isn't something we should just ignore.

Also, there were 0 wolves killed in the last game, they steamrolled through the town.

 

[Sandslash7]

I'd recommend for people to go back through that argument between Absol and vegitalian again. I think it is very important to do so.

I'll be honest that I skimmed much of it as it was going down. Long posts are long. But I went back and ISO'd both of them. My quick thoughts before I get to the heart of the ISO:

Vegi ~ You maintained your cool. Though you were intentionally pushing Absol's buttons on more than one occasion to get him to respond emotionally. You didn't insult him, but definitely got under his skin effectively. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Your posts were logical and thought out (minus a triplicate with bad formatting). You responded to Absol and were clear in your wording.

Absol ~ You are extremely aggressive. This is not a bad thing. Sometimes people need a lot of pressure before they crack. But, you are also very emotional and argumentative for no good reason. Vegi's analysis of your post was 1) His interpretation of your actions to Vablakes, and 2) Quite accurate based on the wording you provided in your post. I've read those posts. You claiming he is putting words in your mouth is false. By saying that the attack on Vablakes was unfounded, you are defending him whether you planned for it or not.


Lets take me for example, since we both are in a similar boat. I am claimed by Vegi to have "defended" Vablakes. The thing I said about him before Vegi's post was "I am leaning newbtown." This is not a defense in any sense of the word. This is my gut feeling based on the way Vablakes posted, what he said, and his reasoning. But, in my read of "newbtown" I "defended him," even though no such post existed. Do you see me all up in arms about Vablakes? No. I find his post to be perfectly acceptable and even quite useful, even though he drastically overstates my opinion of Vablakes. Analysis of links can be an adequate adjunct to other scumtells in finding wolves. However your explosive response to Vegi's post was:

1. Unnecessary (since his analysis was correct)
2. Unnecessary (since he already stated that it was his interpretation of other's posts)
3. Unnecessary (since it could have been logged for later if you really felt that he was misrepresenting your case, a GREAT read for later on in the game, when you can implicate more than one scum based on those type of misrepresentations)
4. Unnecessary (since your response could have been condensed, without the emotion/vitriol, and more analytic).

Now, to the full ISO (I wish there was a way to condense this to make it more easily read... :frown: )

Summarization of key points in normal text, "quotes in quotation marks," (my thoughts in parenthesis)

Vegi
253 Sits on fence while posting helful hints, Says posting often helps wolves too, not just town
283 Votes daiz (RVS?) and "defends" me
375 pokes pf5, talks about tables' thoughts. claims townie
384 posts "linking post," (Doesn't uncover roles, but alignment rather) makes a few assumptions, does not link posts
387 justification for absol read
391 "my impressions from posts" subtle almost threat, justification has "ideas that aren't really accurate
411 goes at absol directly, previous post explanation. is not emotional, but is poking absol. smug and confident.
419 again justification, takes responsibility. tldr to end it
423 takes pressure very well. unvotes his rvs, doesn't vote. (null read). is pointing out his bandwagon
427 smug again, is careful to not claim absol wolf in omgus, throws a little wifom
430 explanation/fence sit
434 wifoms a bit
439 good response
444 pokes that absol is tunneling
448 fence sits, doesn't think his wagon has wolves on it.
450 again points the tunneling. justification
453 tunnel more absol
455 pokes more, still un-pressured
517 response to absol pretty truthful and logical


Absoltrainer
215 Defends Vablakes, goes after HD for adequate reasons
309 tries to find inconsistency in vablakes
320 goes for vablakes, voting for him.
388 jumps down vegi's throat for the 'defends vablakes' notation
405 very aggressive to vegi, semi isos him
407 calls out the threat
416 again calls the support "false" very aggressive/emotional
424 calls the bandwagon analysis distraction
429 misconstrues the term initial post, (due to non-existent definition from Vegi)
433 doesn't fear wolves uses linking logic to go after vablakes calls "scummy=wolf automatically"
436 says linking logic (that vegi posts) means we should go after vablakes if vegi flips wolf
443 says that vegi needs to focus on today, calls vegi wolf, doesn't fear wolves
446 still very aggressive
449 AGAIN with linking logic. Absol, STAHP. claims vegi=smear claims vegi was gonna use vablakes scumbus to go after him. (there were 4 other people with vablakes)
451 summarizes actions
454 military analogy because. claims victory
456 come at me bro (no link necessary)
458 still aggressive, claims vegi lies, smears, and takes out of context, says this was not useless, but fun
461 starts to come down off the high. but claims he hasn't stopped anyone from talking
463 again says its fun to troll, says he will only target new scum targets after one is dead (this is not an RPG, you cannot deal with DPS like that)
465 "I never said that."
468 calls out the ~insults to him, blames other people for not talking when he was
470 "hardly arguing for the sake of arguing" (thats what it seems like to me...)
480 legit discussion with kayle about voting record and askes questions
487 defines his strategy.(middle of post) very keen on not having words put in his mouth. calls out kayle on vote-swapping, claims it not his fault that people stopped talking, doesn't fear wolves
492 read my posts pl0x. says he has multiple wolves in his pocket, says he is not pressured



Now, what do I gain from these ISOs?

1) Vegi made a post that could be helpful down the road. He made some assumptions/analysis of players posts and stated his thoughts on their posts, how they were "aligning themselves" to other players.
2) Absol completely over-reacts due to his placement. I feel that Vegi was 1) honest in his interpretation and 2) correct in his placment of Absol in the "defends Vablakes, then votes for him" notation. This is logical and reasonable. Absol uses this as leverage to claim, sequentially that Vegi is putting words in his mouth and a wolf.
3) Vegi, completely unperturbed, pokes Absol numerous times about his posts.
4) Absol continues his aggressive posting against vegitalian, almost blind at this point to any other issue.
5) Conversation in the thread stops while this argument goes down.
6) Absol is called a troll-child and is told to back off. (coincidentally he admits to having fun trolling vegitalian).
7) The heat comes down and we all realize that about a ~ day was wasted on that superficially-pointless argument.
8) Absol is accused of stopping conversation, which he denies. However both he and Vegi DID stop conversation on other topics while the argument was under way.
9) We are now back to logical examination, and I feel that we should all go back and conduct our own ISO's on the situation to garner a better understanding of the argument and the key players.


Thus: Vegitalian.
1) If you are going to poke for responses, you need to get some concrete data out of them. Intentionally riling Absoltrainer's emotions for no reason is bad.
2) Your argument is a day that cannot be recovered. Thus, make the best of it and do some ISOs of players responding to the argument and give us some reads.
3) Why the threat of "Its probably not a good idea?"
4) You throw WIFOM into the argument, stating all these hypothetical scenarios where players could or could not be wolves. That itself at this point is WIFOM/scummy, along with some of your other statements "posting a lot helps the wolves," etc.
5) You need to post some reads.

Absol.
1) Why were you so vehement about denying something that 1) Was Vegi's opinion of the post, and 2) Something that was accurate?
2) Why all of the aggression and emotion?
3) You need to go back and ISO player's responses to your argument and post your reads.
4) Your continued claims of "I'm not afraid of wolves" is interesting, in a vein similar to Crimsonsky. What is its purpose in your posts at all, other than to claim you cannot die to wolves OR are a wolf? If you had a role that nullified wolf kills against you, you shouldn't have said anything. If the wolves believe your claim then they now won't "waste" a role that they might have had you not said anything.



At this point, I'm going to lay this information out there and let you all read it for yourself. Make your own analysis, don't just trust mine. I'm glad I did.

 

[Kayle]

SS7, your post is incredibly awesome, but some of your links point to the same post with just a different post number. The way pokegym's single-post links work is weird. Can you reformat those lists please? Sorry to be a bearer of bad news =/

 

[homeofmew]

Saying that the wolves do not vote/accuse each other is a very dangerous line of thinking. You should always assume that the wolves will do whatever it takes to stay alive and appear town. If that means going after other wolves they'll do that, especially in a game this large where there should be something like 10+ wolves. Voting off a wolf or 2 early to appear pro-town for the late game isn't something we should just ignore.

Also, there were 0 wolves killed in the last game, they steamrolled through the town.

Maybe but I'm still pretty mad about last game.
But yeah I have never seen wolfs accuse each other. Vote for each other in the past not sure.

I have read up to around page 15 or so.

A. I find it odd that Mysterious target me and not the other people who haven't come in yet. I mean when you are a alternate you may not realize it for a few days depending on your schedule. But for all that hawked me last game for being not here I'll be here more, i'll try twice a day.

Also I'm pretty sure they should know I am a female.

B. Absoltrainer is Aggressive every game i have seen him play. If he turns out to be a bad guy whatever, I am just stating the fact that he's played every single game hes ever been in aggressively. like i always play Passively.

 

[ProHawk]

SS7 - You make points, but fail to provide the evidence. You are wrong about Absol defending Vablakes and my post in which I addressed the point provided the evidence. You say you read the posts, but then use Absol's words from a post hundreds of posts after the offending post. Re-Read my post HERE which provides the evidence for a complete picture.

If you defend someone in public, it is only because you believe they are town. Why would you defend someone who you didn't think was town? Case in Point: Can scum defend scum? Yes, but they are doing it because they want everyone else to believe they are town. A defense = a town read.

Second point that you failed to mention - I attacked HD because of his attack on Vablakes first, before Absol, yet failed to make it onto the list of associations as a defender of Vablakes. Was it an honest oversight?

Why is an attack (Absols "defense" of Vablake) on someone for their attack on someone else (HD's attack on Vablake) not a defense of the first person attacked? This is because bussing is a reality. Just because you attack someone does not make the attacked town.

If you can prove that Absol thought Vablakes was town by his posts, then I will believe that Absol defended Vablakes. The truth is his "defense" was only an attacking point on HD and not really a defense of Vablakes.

Again, your position that you are in the same position as Absol is completely false. I am more closely in the same position as Absol considering we made the same attacks on HD for the same reason - his opportunistic attack on Vablakes. You actually said Vablakes was "newbtown", therefore you did defend the towniness of Vablakes. Please show me how you saying someone is newbtown and attacking someone for their attack on the accused are one in the same. I am not seeing it.

Was Vegi's point interpretation? Yes. The problem is that it was the wrong interpretation. Absol corrected it, and later ensued the bloody conflict.

Why is it bad that his post was interpretation? Vagi said he wanted those associations to be used when flips started happening. If he would have used it, and no one challenged it, chances are many people would just take his word for it without looking for the truth. Interpretations are fine as long as you are willing to change your interpretation once the truth is revealed.

At this point, I'm going to lay this information out there and let you all read it for yourself. Make your own analysis, don't just trust mine. I'm glad I did.

Oh yeah? I didn't see a proper conclusion from your points so what about your analysis made you so glad? I see you are still without a vote on anyone... sitting on the fence for some reason?