Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[DragonClyne725]

Show me one place where I said I don't think you're scum. You won't find it though because I maintain that you appear to be wolfy. SMP simply looks worse so I changed my vote. That doesn't mean you're off the radar.

True, you didn't state I'm not "wolfy", but the fact is that you stated that you were certain I am a Wolf, but then flipped your vote over to SMP88 using the excuse that he's a better lynch.

I'm sure the town can see through the wolf wagon you guys are very obviously trying to get rolling.

I also have a little tale about a pot and a kettle...

Also, speaking for the entire Town is not very Town-like at all. You are arguing against a wagon forming against you when you only have 3 votes.

And simply calling it an "obvious wolf wagon" without anything to back up your claim? Is it just because it's against you that it's a "wolf wagon"?

As well, you choose to respond to only a small portion of what I have said against you...

 

[pokemonfreak5]

I had to type out my last post in a bit of a hurry before leaving the house so I apologize if I didn't make everything crystal clear.

I'll back up a little.

Waynegg brings up 2 candidates for suspicion, neither of whom I'm really sold on, but I can kinda see the reasons for one of them (SMP), waynegg currently is focusing on the other (DC)

I post in defense of DC, and drag up a few, admitedly shaky, reasons against SMP, just to see what happens. In this case I get to judge 2-3 players reactions.

Waynegg instantly flips over to the other, now apparently more viable target. My attack on SMP was not COMPLETELY unfounded. I'm not particularly keen on wasting discussing the finer points of my personal scumtells when it comes to phrasing and speach patterns, but I will say that in more than one occasion I've found minor details like this to be very powerful indicators when observed, noted, and then applied later in the game. However, it basically boils down to me using a smaller fish to bait a big fish.

@Waynegg, there is no hypocrisy or pot-kettle blackness in my post. You except me to say "hold up guys, i just randomly picked a guy who I believed to be 100% confirm-town and accused him in an attempt to bait someone I believe may be scum, drop all charges against SMP and carry on"
No of course not, that'd be ridiculous. The fact is I already had some minor points against SMP and I was going to use them as I see fit. Do I think he's the best lynch for today? no. Do I think he's definitely innocent? of course not, it's way too early. Did I vote for him with minimal reasoning to gauge both your reactions? You betcha.

My vote holds. Any thing else still need clearing up?

 

[waynegg]

True, you didn't state I'm not "wolfy", but the fact is that you stated that you were certain I am a Wolf, but then flipped your vote over to SMP88 using the excuse that he's a better lynch.

Please quote where I said I was CERTAIN you are a wolf. If you can't then it never happened. At this point in the game you can't be certain about anyone other than yourself.

I also have a little tale about a pot and a kettle...

Then please tell it, and you may want to look up the phrase 'the pot calling the kettle black' to see what it means before you use it...

Also, speaking for the entire Town is not very Town-like at all. You are arguing against a wagon forming against you when you only have 3 votes.

I never spoke for the entire town. Compelling a group to see what's going on so they can make up their own minds is actually quite the obvious.

And simply calling it an "obvious wolf wagon" without anything to back up your claim? Is it just because it's against you that it's a "wolf wagon"?

Calling it like I see it. You don't have to agree.

As well, you choose to respond to only a small portion of what I have said against you...

Hope that's better for you. And let me add- PURPOSEFULLY TWISTING SOMEONE'S WORDS IN AN ATTEMPT TO PAINT THEM IN A BAD LIGHT IS A CLASSIC WOLF TRAIT and instead of defending yourself, that's what you've done all day. You also use "we" A LOT when talking about "your" thoughts. From cabd's guide on tells:

Plurality

"We think XYZ is scum because of ABC reasons" Note the use of the word "we". A town player is alone. If you use somebody using the word "we" or "us" chances are you've found scum. Please note that this read is null if the player claims mason under duress. Still, keep it in mind. Especially if the town already had a pair of masons claimed or dead.

Strength: 60 (90 second instance, 100 third and beyond)

Plurality posts by Dragonclyne:

#817

Had this written up when the Night Began:
What We Learned:

• Redwall characters are present in this game (which is pretty awesome).
• The “Enforcers” seem to be a third-party type group with communication only during the Night. Also, from the underlined portion of the role, I think it is safe to assume that there are at least 3 other “Enforcer” win condition roles out there. Just something to keep in the back of our minds as we go further into this Game.

What We Learned:

• On the first page, Giratina has been listed as an Independent, which would imply that a “Pokemon Win” win condition is not exactly Town allied. He was basically just a one-time vigilante. In other words, we should not just accept someone as Town just because they claim to be a Pokemon.

Adding in Day Start Update information:
What We Learned:

• Not all Redwall characters are “Enforcers”, and some can be Town. This, in turn, means we could have a wolf as a Redwall character as well.

Agreed. It really could have been anyone who blocked Vegi.

#825

Redwall is a fantasy book series by Brian Jacques. The world of Redwall is mainly made up of mice, badgers, moles, and hares (and much more), all of whom are able to wield swords and other weapons. Cats, foxes, and rats are the common enemies to Redwall Abbey.

Seeing Foremole Diggum and Brome the Healer together, we're looking at having pretty much any character from any time period of the series, as Brome is from the time of Martin the Warrior, which was before the creation of Redwall Abbey, while Foremole Diggum is at Redwall Abbey in The Long Patrol. From this, we can deduce that the characters from the same dimensions may also come from various time periods of said dimension.


PP101 claimed to be a Pokemon in post #719, not that he has a "Pokemon Win" win condition.

#846

Possibly Lost World, though not probable since Giratina's dead. All we know is Jelly's gone and we don't know his alignment.

We know for sure that we have the following win conditions:

• Enforcers Win
• Pokemon Win
• Town Wins

Most likely on the list as well will be a "Wolves Win" win condition, but we have yet to see one. Also, we have yet to see if KotRT have a separate win condition.

And you know, Celebi was a good and nice Pokemon too, until it was caught with a Dark Ball and used for evil (sorry for the spoiler y'all). Saying something like, "But Latias is a nice Pokemon!", isn't going to get you cleared from suspicion in this game.

#849

Why do the Enforcers not look like a "friendly bunch"? So far, the only role we've seen from them has been one that saves a targeted player from dying, which seems pretty friendly to me:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If we focus on taking out Indies, the Wolves will just eat us for breakfast. I suggest we focus on scum hunting, but keep an eye on our Pokemon friends.

#864

So, what you're saying is, that you would rather hunt for Indies than hunt for Wolves, because more Indies have won in the past then Wolves? The Wolves move as a unit; if we take out one, another will just make the Night Kill. Usually, Indies work alone (hence the name "Independents"), and taking out the one with a killing role will end the +1 NK. The Enforcers and Pokemon (to me, at least) do not seem to be as threatening as Wolves.

With Giratina dead, I don't see too much chance of there being another killing role as part of the Pokemon group. It's possible, but I don't see it as very likely. I see there being a greater probability that Jelly's killer was either an Enforcer (leading to them not being all friendly) or another type of Indie we have yet to see (which is entirely possible).

To Sum it Up: I believe we should focus on finding the Wolves, and not get distracted with the different groups, as we do not know their motives/goals as of yet. Honestly, TheKing, I see your statement about not wanting to prioritize finding Wolves as rather scummy.

Suspicious Pointy Finger: TheKing

I could carry on, but I don't think it's necessary; ALMOST EVERY POST YOU'VE MADE since day 2 began has contained classic examples of plurality. There's the basic psychology you chose to mock and to which I referred. Subconsciously, you can't help knowing you are a part of a group and it SCREAMS out in your posts.

You were right about one thing though, I shouldn't have switched my vote. SMP can wait until tomorrow...

Unvote: SMP88

VOTE: DRAGONCLYNE725

 

[PikaJewel]

Okay if this post is disorganized I'm sorry but I'm a little pressed for time and I'm kind of reading backwards through the thread.

AAM get in here, I know you're out there.

Anyway uh let's see what we're do...we're still discussing this. Why Why WHY.

Guys, it's really simple. Lynch people that don't have a Town win condition. That's all there is to it. Stop tunneling Wolves/Enforcers/Indies/whoever, and keep them all in mind when we lynch.

Benzo is obvtown.

I still think it's possible Indies can be 3rd party, but we can't be sure without more information.

PF5 is always scum.

@PF5: Same thing as PP101, what bait?

Scorri, that is a silly assumption and I recommend you don't keep going with that line of thought. (the one about Giratina having team win condition and so it must have a team and that makes Benzo scummy somehow)

I think PF5 might be word twisting and/or seeing things that aren't in SMP's post ("Cool story." as a scumtell? Really?), but maybe it's just me.

PM stop thinking people don't read you, and just contribute with what you think. Don't even comment on such, just give your thoughts on topics being discussed.

Oh god G landers, you're reading into a scumslip, which is more often than not wrong. Heck, I'd hardly even call that a scumslip.

Levity, I swear I know you from somewhere. EpicMafia?

Not sure I like eclipse's defenses of Crimsonsky, but it may just be a Serene's Forest thing so I'm not going to read too much into it.

PikaJewel's lack of content hurts me to look at. Can I get some content from this corner?

ProHawk, G landers was VI (is that the right term?) last game, I wouldn't read too much into that.

LOL

Pretty sure DarthPika and ProHawk are town too.

I would get on jpulice for lurking today, but I think there are bigger fish to fry right now.

Alright I'm done. This is the most disorganized post I'll ever make. If there's something I didn't comment on that I probably should've let me know.

Unvote: Arcanine/Arbok Master
Vote: pokemonfreak5

Reason: Seeing scumtells in things that just aren't there. Particularly that "cool story" thing.

Sorry I feel like if I say anything I'm going to douse myself in hot water, and that I may just repeat stuff people have already pointed out.

Now about the enforcers, what makes everybody so sure that they are bad? Enforcing is protecting or building up, making stronger or stuff like that, the whole spider man thing does make some sense, but right now we've never seen anybody from spider man.

PMesteryois (sp?) I've read every thing you've said helpful or not.

And again I'll ask, does anybody think that the role Vablakes posted than the character he was don't fit together at all? I see this as being fishy, and for now will go with a vote for Vablakes.

VOTE: Vablakes

Reason: Scummy actions and a no link between reveals

And I'm also less suspicious of AT now, after Vegitalian got hung up. Because hanging Vegitalian if he was town would just scream AT IS WOLF to our faces, no I think this was a strategic move.

 

[waynegg]

And again I'll ask, does anybody think that the role Vablakes posted than the character he was don't fit together at all? I see this as being fishy, and for now will go with a vote for Vablakes.

He didn't reveal his role, he just said that he had a night action which "only works under certain circumstances". He revealed his character name to be Latias. I don't see why you think the two wouldn't fit together. Explain?

 

[eclipse]

Comments all the way down. First things first. . .

- I don't think going after Crimsonsky due to his spotty Internet connection is good play; we at the Forest know that he is on sporadically, so we don't push a lynch on him solely because he hasn't been around in the past couple of days. I see it at about the same level as trying to push a lynch on Human Destroyer for having Duskull as an avatar.

- Bizz/Levity is also on EpicMafia. :tongue:

Now, quoting this:

Conversely, if we focus on the wolves, then the independent groups will "eat us for breakfast" especially when one of them appears to have a killing role. Read some of the past games on here, independents have won far more games than the wolves ever had.

Independents come in many flavors. I can't tell whether the Pokemon are survivors (win by staying alive) or some serial killer variant (win by being the last ones alive). They don't seem to be a cult (win by recruiting others until they reach parity), lyncher (win by having someone specific lynched), or fool (win by having selves lynched).

Not sure what you're trying to say here. Even if I am am completely cemented on what I should do, I'd need others agreeing with me or it would get nowhere. *cough*pm*cough*

Asking others about what you should do in-thread is bad form. Posting such things makes it look like you don't have your own opinion. Keep in mind that came before a lot of other stuff.

I refer to independents as not aligned with the town or the wolves (hence the term independent)not sure why this makes a difference to you, they're both antitown regardless of name if they aren't part of the town. (those "logical jumps", more like a step on the path of critical thinking)

From the way things are listed on the first page, as well as the flips on D1 (namely, Brome's flip), I am inclined to think that we're in a game with multiple killing factions. I don't have enough information to determine whether Pokemon can win with the town or not. The exact wording of the win conditions would help greatly, but that is host territory.

What gave you the hint? Possibly the fact that their win condition wasn't "town wins"? Oh wait, there's another group that don't have that win condition, but for some reason they're "independent" so that means they're ok right? (now what was that about logic jumps?) It shouldn't matter what they are called, as long as they are not part of the town, they're anti town. I'm not saying to solely focus on the pokemon, but that to brush aside as if they are harmless is a bad idea.

If that is how you feel, fine. However, this is something you said earlier (bold mine):

I don't understand how you can make all these assumptions. There's no reason that the enforcers are "not very friendly" and the pokemon "might not be anti-town". Using logic, if they don't have the win condition "town wins" they're anti town. Also we have a claimed pokemon who seems to be acting suspiscious (vablakes) while no idea whp any wolves are. You seem to favor the pokemon while trying to make the other independent group (the enforcers) look more anti town. Which leads me to believe you're a pokemon who knows that your faction is antitown.

Reread the bold part along with the rest of your responses - if you want to lynch everyone that is anti-town, then you should have no issues going after enforcers, too. I'd like to see what you have to say about this, so my vote is staying put. I've got other things to address.

Never mind that now. Just didn't read the first post.

Yes, I realize how dangerous it can be you make it seem that no one can change my mind, but I don't care at all.

The reason why I think no one "reads me" is because they don't look at my posts at all, especially late game when I say stuff which is game changing information. Its actually helped Scum and hurt Town a lot. Because of my poor plays early on in the game, no one even considers reading my posts, and I get blamed for defeats because everyone thinks I did nothing to help.

I think part of the reason why people don't pay attention to you is because of your adamant refusal to change your mind. I was on your case during D1 for focusing on the subs, even though there was a lot of other things going on. Try analyzing what's going on NOW.

Reference

What if there is a role that can steal other players roles?
Thought on that?

I see no reason to speculate on it, as this does not help us with the day's lynch. Speaking of. . .

You're both correct sorry I did indeed misread both posts.

Unvoterohawk
Voteragonclyne727

Your first vote was for, at best, a misunderstanding. Now you have another vote with no reasoning behind it. I don't like your content this day phase one bit.

I would rather not have a repeat of the unpleasantness of D1. Thank you. Due to family things, I won't be on until late Christmas my time. Happy holidays~!

 

[Glaceon]

Please quote where I said I was CERTAIN you are a wolf. If you can't then it never happened. At this point in the game you can't be certain about anyone other than yourself.



Then please tell it, and you may want to look up the phrase 'the pot calling the kettle black' to see what it means before you use it...



I never spoke for the entire town. Compelling a group to see what's going on so they can make up their own minds is actually quite the obvious.



Calling it like I see it. You don't have to agree.



Hope that's better for you. And let me add- PURPOSEFULLY TWISTING SOMEONE'S WORDS IN AN ATTEMPT TO PAINT THEM IN A BAD LIGHT IS A CLASSIC WOLF TRAIT and instead of defending yourself, that's what you've done all day. You also use "we" A LOT when talking about "your" thoughts. From cabd's guide on tells:

Plurality posts by Dragonclyne:

#817


#825

#846

#849

#864

I could carry on, but I don't think it's necessary; ALMOST EVERY POST YOU'VE MADE since day 2 began has contained classic examples of plurality. There's the basic psychology you chose to mock and to which I referred. Subconsciously, you can't help knowing you are a part of a group and it SCREAMS out in your posts.

You were right about one thing though, I shouldn't have switched my vote. SMP can wait until tomorrow...

Unvote: SMP88

VOTE: DRAGONCLYNE725

Did you not JUST switch votes to SMP, from Clyne?

What makes you change back? All the posts you quoted you already knew about. I see nothing new that could have swayed you.

All I see is you got worried and wanted to switch back or something stupid like that.

Vote: Waynegg

 

[ProHawk]

Eclipse, This is the second time you have brought up a defense of CrimsonSky. I originally thought the same as Human Destroyer - that it was odd you had to come to his defense, but dismissed it as you two being from the same "hood" if you will.

However, now that it seems to be a recurring theme with you there are a couple things that strike me as odd. The first being, I don't see anyone attacking CrimsonSky for his lack of activity. First order of business, please provide evidence that anyone is attacking Crimson for not being around.

Second, why bring it up a second time? If it was because of HD's post, he clearly mentioned that he wasn't going to read into it. So again, why the necessity to bring it up?

I am content with waiting until after the holidays to start pressuring him a lot, but the reality of the situation is as follows:

He already isn't posting a lot.
When he does, he posts in cryptic posts that are essentially useless.
When he does, he fails to respond to questions properly and often skips past a majority of them.
Without much content from him (due to his poor connection) we have no way to get a reliable read on him.
He has already claimed a role that will make it extremely risky/impossible to get a seer result from to determine his innocence/guilt.

He is dangerous. My main point of scumminess on him is due to his constant evasion of questions, not because of his absence. It seems like I am the only one who sees it however. Can anyone here explain to me why they don't see CrimsonSky as scummy?

Onto recent devopments, I don't like the way waynegg pulled from Cabd's guide the "Plurality tell" at all. First, the way that waynegg used it was complete against its original intent. The "We"s that he quoted DC using were clearly in the context of We-Everyone, not We-My Team. That is pretty scummy, especially coming from someone who clearly understands what is going on. Waynegg is one of my lynch candidates today at the moment.

 

[Pikamaster]

VOTE COUNT:
41 Remaining
21 to lynch


Waynegg- 4 (Benzo, Pokemonfreak5, Dragonclyne725, Glaceon)

Vablakes- 6 (Scorri, StrongRhino, Jpulice, DarthPika, SMP88, Pikajewel)

Dragonclyne725- 1 (TheKing)

Shinori- 1 (Crimsonsky)

Crimsonsky- 1 (Prohawk)

TheKing- 1 (Eclipse)

Dragonclyne725- 2 (G landers, Waynegg)

Pokemonfreak5- 1 (Human Destroyer)


If you haven't posted today, you must do so or risk modkill.

Merry Christmas Eve everyone~

 

[waynegg]

I play this game the same every time I play it- aggressively. All I want to say is lynch me and you'll lynch a town role and a good player who consistently sniffs out wolves EARLY on.

If people decide to play TL/DR follow the leader with this small bandwagon and I'm lynched, once I'm confirmed town you should pursue those started this fiasco as I gurantee no less than 3 non town roles envolved at least one of which is a wolf. They are:

Dragonclyne725
SMP88
Benzo
Pokemonfreak5
Glaceon (who voted for me just because I changed my votes frequently... like I always do... like he was just grasping for a reason to jump on the wagon)

 

[DragonClyne725]

Please quote where I said I was CERTAIN you are a wolf. If you can't then it never happened. At this point in the game you can't be certain about anyone other than yourself.

Alright:

Yep. You're a wolf, and you have my vote regardless of how this day plays out.

So, I call bluff while the shadow surrounding you deepens...

As I've already said, I think both DC and SMP are scummy. However, you should understand that the case against DC isn't just for his reasoning on different factions. The reasons are about as solid as you can get on day two, actually.

certain - "free from doubt or reservation; confident; sure" (dictionary.com). You sound pretty certain that I am a Wolf in these quotes.

Then please tell it, and you may want to look up the phrase 'the pot calling the kettle black' to see what it means before you use it...

The Pot Calling the Kettle Black - "an idiom used to claim that a person is guilty of the very thing of which they accuse another" (wikipedia.com). I used this expression in reference to you calling the wagon against you an "obvious wolf wagon", while you had started a wagon against me that looks pretty scummy.

I never spoke for the entire town. Compelling a group to see what's going on so they can make up their own minds is actually quite the obvious.

Saying that you're sure the Town can see through an obvious wolf wagon is indirectly like saying, "If you follow this wagon, you are either a bad Townie or a wolf." So no, I don't see this as compelling a group to see what's going on, I see this as almost threatening anyone who votes for you.

Hope that's better for you. And let me add- PURPOSEFULLY TWISTING SOMEONE'S WORDS IN AN ATTEMPT TO PAINT THEM IN A BAD LIGHT IS A CLASSIC WOLF TRAIT and instead of defending yourself, that's what you've done all day.

Yes, thank you for responding to one of my posts. And no, I am not attempting to paint you in a bad light, but I am scumhunting here, and I believe to have found one. You attacked me based on my assumptions and some "basic psychology" you applied to fit your argument, switched to SMP88 when he seemed like a better target, and when you received some pressure for it, you switched back to me. These are not "words" I am "painting", these are actions you have done that make you appear scummy to me.

You also use "we" A LOT when talking about "your" thoughts. From cabd's guide on tells

"We think XYZ is scum because of ABC reasons". This tell is an opinionated statement that uses the plural we or us, showing that the person is not alone and knows others for certain who share their opinions, aka Wolves or Masons. If you look at my posts which you have pointed out, none of them follow this pattern. I use "we" (as a Town) when suggesting what I think "we" should do or when showing facts that "we" have gathered from the Updates/Mod. Not in an opinionated way, but in a factual way.

When attacking me for using "we" in either a factual way or as a collective expression for the Town, you do realize that you are also indirectly attacking every person who has used "we" in the way I have? Page 37 alone has 36 usages of "we" (excluding my uses and other words with "we" in them).

I could carry on, but I don't think it's necessary; ALMOST EVERY POST YOU'VE MADE since day 2 began has contained classic examples of plurality. There's the basic psychology you chose to mock and to which I referred. Subconsciously, you can't help knowing you are a part of a group and it SCREAMS out in your posts.

I "mock" the psychology you used because it doesn't fit the situation. You took my thinking Jelly was killed by an Indie/other to mean that I knew the Wolves didn't do the job, meaning that I was either a Wolf or Jelly's killer. However, your psychology doesn't account for the fact that I assumed wrong (as I explained at the bottom of post #937).

If people decide to play TL/DR follow the leader with this small bandwagon and I'm lynched, once I'm confirmed town you should pursue those started this fiasco as I gurantee no less than 3 non town roles envolved at least one of which is a wolf. They are:

Dragonclyne725
SMP88
Benzo
Pokemonfreak5
Glaceon (who voted for me just because I changed my votes frequently... like I always do... like he was just grasping for a reason to jump on the wagon)

I do hope people are actually reading these posts and not just voting due to length. If, not once, you flip Town, then the people voting for you (including myself) will be looked into. However, I don't think this will happen because I feel you are a Wolf.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I realize this post got a little long, so I'll try to sum up my points against waynegg and vice versa:

Waynegg's Points Against Me:

• I have been subtly urging the masses to end the Day early.
• I flip-flop between wanting to kill Wolves and kill the +1 NK.
• I "obviously" have more information about the killings, which means I am either a Wolf, Jelly's killer, or some Night watcher role.
• I use the word "we", which must mean I have a faction behind me whom I am speaking for.

My Points Against Waynegg:

• Waynegg tried to start a wagon against me based on a wrong assumption I had made.
• Waynegg directly calls me a Wolf, implying he is certain of which. States the reasons against me are solid, but then states in the same post that the reasons against me are not as solid as those against SMP88 (#922).
• Waynegg claims to have gone through my posts and that I have been subtly urging for an early end to the Day, but doesn't support his accusation with proof.
• Waynegg also claims that I went from going for wolves, to trying to find the +1 NK role, back to going for wolves in the same post (#864). I don't see any of this flip-flopping occuring.
• Waynegg, when called out for switching his vote, switches his vote back to me.
• Waynegg calls the wagon against him an obvious wolf wagon (#940) as his defense, and later accuses the people voting for him of being Wolves (#950).
• Waynegg defends himself by saying he never used the exact word "certain", tells me to look up an expression I had used (which DID fit the context), and then attacks me for using the word "we", claiming it to be a scumtell. However, the scumtell he had quoted from cabd is merely him defending himself with an Appeal to Authority. It's like saying, "Since cabd says plurality is a scumtell, and since you use "we", you must be scum". Also, the scumtell didn't even fit the situation, as it is based off of "we" being used as "We think ___ is town" when I use it as a collective expression for the Town.

Once again, I apologize for the length of my posts, but I do like to quote where I get information from and what I am responding to, so it does take up a bit more space.

 

[Absoltrainer]

Hi everyone. I have about 3 pages to read. I have been very busy this last week with a variety of stuff, so I apologize for my absense. I will post a large post (don't worry not 38 pages long) regarding my thoughts on various matters sometime tonight.

 

[waynegg]

My Points Against Waynegg:

• Waynegg tried to start a wagon against me based on a wrong assumption I had made.

No, I voted for a logical choice. Some saw the logic and voted with me

• Waynegg directly calls me a Wolf, implying he is certain of which. States the reasons against me are solid, but then states in the same post that the reasons against me are not as solid as those against SMP88 (#922).

No such implication exists. IN FACT I HAVE PLAINLY SAID MULTIPLE TIMES I WASN'T 100% SURE YOU WERE A WOLF. But, keep telling lies, they'll bury you.

• Waynegg claims to have gone through my posts and that I have been subtly urging for an early end to the Day, but doesn't support his accusation with proof.

The proof is in your earlier posts. I'm not a friend of Too Lazy/Didn't Read in a game like this. People need to go back and look at posts on their own and make their own minds up.

• Waynegg also claims that I went from going for wolves, to trying to find the +1 NK role, back to going for wolves in the same post (#864). I don't see any of this flip-flopping occuring.

And if you did see that flip-flopping (which, again is there), you would be the first to pull the damaging evidence against yourself out there for all to see, right...

• Waynegg, when called out for switching his vote, switches his vote back to me.

I switch my votes often during the day. Look at any game in which I've played and you'll see this. Get over it, it's part of my play style.

• Waynegg calls the wagon against him an obvious wolf wagon (#940) as his defense, and later accuses the people voting for him of being Wolves (#950).

It is, and here's why- 2 people with very real scum heat on them (you and SMP88) gang up, vote for me, and coerce others (could they be wolves as well, hmm...) to follow your lies. THAT'S AS OBVIOUS AS A WOLF WAGON GETS.

• Waynegg defends himself by saying he never used the exact word "certain", tells me to look up an expression I had used (which DID fit the context), and then attacks me for using the word "we", claiming it to be a scumtell. However, the scumtell he had quoted from cabd is merely him defending himself with an Appeal to Authority. It's like saying, "Since cabd says plurality is a scumtell, and since you use "we", you must be scum". Also, the scumtell didn't even fit the situation, as it is based off of "we" being used as "We think ___ is town" when I use it as a collective expression for the Town.

Saying it fits the context, does not make it fit the context. Especially when I straight up said, multiple times, and in plain English, that I wasn't CERTAIN you were a wolf...


Once again, I apologize for the length of my posts, but I do like to quote where I get information from and what I am responding to, so it does take up a bit more space.

The point is (as is clearly pointed out in the guide I quoted) the usage of collective adverbs (such as "We") is a great scum tell, especially when used almost exclusively. CABD even rates this tell as one of the highest and most likely to yield good results:

Strength: 60 (90 second instance, 100 third and beyond)

And you're well beyond your third instance.

I voted you because I think you're a wolf. Then your partner SMP chimes in and I'm like-oh wow, another wolf, which do I vote for. There were some posts by others that gave plausible explanations for you so I changed my vote. THEN I went back over every one of your posts. In all but 2 of them (until I pointed it out at least) you wrote in the plural- TOWNIES DON'T DO THAT, not to the extent you have.

Now I AM CERTAIN you are a wolf so I put my vote back on ya.

 

[ProHawk]

Waynegg, you're using Cabd's tell wrong. And you look scummy for it.

 

[Diaz]

And at the same time, if you never test a theory you can never prove it. That said, I agree we shouldn't rush to kill off the Pokemon and forget to go after the wolves who hunt us at night. While others might kill, with wolves it's a definite.

Bold added by me. Waynegg, I don't think the initial attacks on you were that good, but your response to them has been very poor.

 

[waynegg]

954
I value your opinion, but I don't believe I am using it wrong. If, however, you have concrete proof of DC725's innocence I'll be willing to listen. Thanks for the bump though

I forgot to add this earlier. It's the difference between what I've done and what a bandwagon is:

What I have done is lay out evidence as I see it and left it for others to make up their own minds as to the validity of what I see. That's not a bandwagon, or even an attempt at one.

What DC725 has done is lay out evidence as he sees it and then worked very hard at coercing others to see the same. That's a bandwagon and if you fall for it, I hope it's a learning experience for your next game.

At the end of the day, my win condition is town wins. Lynch me and put the wolves that much closer to thei win condition. I'm positive I was seered in the night phase (because *someone* paraphrased my role...nope *someone* I didn't miss that). Whether they are town or not is another story. Though I won't reveal my role, I will out the seer if it gets down to crunch time and it looks like I need to.

 

[Human Destroyer]

No such implication exists. IN FACT I HAVE PLAINLY SAID MULTIPLE TIMES I WASN'T 100% SURE YOU WERE A WOLF. But, keep telling lies, they'll bury you.

Okay, you're digging your own grave here. DC725 provided examples of you being so certain that he is a wolf. This is blatant lying, no matter how you slice it. Also, I know everyone's said this already but...that scumtell abuse, eugh.

Unvote: pokemonfreak5
Vote: waynegg

Reason: Disregarding valid scumtells as complete lies, abusing a scumtell that does not apply here.

 

[Glaceon]

Glaceon (who voted for me just because I changed my votes frequently... like I always do... like he was just grasping for a reason to jump on the wagon)

None of the posts you commented on that changed your mind were post between your unvote for DC and your revote for him. There was nothing new that happened between those posts. What did you do, learn to read the posts? Or catch a mistake and try to cover it up by taking the vote back?

Or would you care to inform me of any other possibility?

The mistake bit is what I think happened: You said something you weren't supposed to, and when you got pressured, you changed your mind merely to avoid pressure.

 

[waynegg]

Bold added by me. Waynegg, I don't think the initial attacks on you were that good, but your response to them has been very poor.

Looking back over it, you're right. I need to tighten up

None of the posts you commented on that changed your mind were post between your unvote for DC and your revote for him. There was nothing new that happened between those posts. What did you do, learn to read the posts? Or catch a mistake and try to cover it up by taking the vote back?

Or would you care to inform me of any other possibility?

Yep. I'll be happy to. I simply looked at cabd's guide, which confirmed the plurality thing, in my mind at least, and restored my vote for DragonClyne. I had a moment of doubt as to my own thoughts, which is when I flipped to SMP, that reading the guide erased as it validated what I saw. Though it may look bad from the outside looking in without that explanation, that's the extent of it.

So yeah- nothing new changed my mind. It was simply a matter of having my original thoughts validated by someone else.

Okay, you're digging your own grave here. DC725 provided examples of you being so certain that he is a wolf. This is blatant lying, no matter how you slice it. Also, I know everyone's said this already but...that scumtell abuse, eugh.

Unvote: pokemonfreak5
Vote: waynegg

Reason: Disregarding valid scumtells as complete lies, abusing a scumtell that does not apply here.

DC725 provides examples of what he wants you to see. He doesn't quote the entire conversation (multiple posts) to put it into context, nor does he quote the numerous times I said I wasn't certain he was a wolf. This- "Yep. You're a wolf, and you have my vote regardless of how this day plays out." is nothing more than fishing for a response.

Looks like you're a lazy player who will follow whatever the flavor of the day is instead of doing your own work. I don't think you're wolfy, but in the voting stage you may as well be.

 

[Diaz]

Waynegg, what about the quote I posted? I'm surprised you didn't respond to that. By your logic, we should be looking into you for that. (I typed that sentence and then realized there was a "we" in it. For the record, I don't think the "we" argument is a good one. I think you're reading into something that isn't there.)