Werewolf XVIII: Dimensional Clash: Wolves/Outlaws Win!

[eclipse]

Somehow, today was worse than yesterday. I see personal attacks, and I am not cool with that. Two things are keeping me from voting waynegg right now.

1. I feel this kind of vote would be dictated by emotion more than logic, because I have a deep-seated resentment of people who do things to look "intentionally scummy", and for people who belittle others.
2. There is the ever-so-slight chance that the theoretical seer did breadcrumb; if so, then said seer will either have to out to save waynegg or stay quiet, and hope that all hostile parties don't catch the crumbs.

I will have at least one more opportunity before phase end to come back. I hope this is the last time I have to fix someone's computer at night, because I am NOT paid enough for this.

 

[DarthPika]

So, here's my thoughts on the situation. I'll give your eyes a break, and not quote a million different posts that make it hard to follow, but try to provide a summery of what I've noticed.

While I do not necessarily agree with how he uses it, this IS Wayneggs normal play style. His town meta is very aggressive scum hunting, and he often attacks many different people, trying to get a wolf to slip up either in defense or when launching a counter attack to try to make him look bad. Now, I'm not saying that the fact that he's done this in the past should clear him of being scum, but I do think it's worth consideration that this is not out of the norm for him.

As for is he scum or not. Things I noticed while reading over the thread:

I've noticed a lot of post dicing (which is why I decided to go for a summery rather than attempt to cut up and accurately present large posts my self), with lots of clever reinterpreting/rearaning of those posts to make Waynegg look bad. He's also guilt of it, but it seemed to me at least, to be a lesser extent.

Waynegg is a smart player. Overly aggressive play is not a characteristic of a smart wolf, since it draws attention to ones self. Furthermore, overly aggressive play tends to get the town (or anyone else who might want to try and take advantage of the situation) against you, because it has the tendency to make you look scummy if you attack the wrong people. I do not see Waynegg playing like this if he were scum. He might not be town, but I do not think that he's scum based on what we should expect of him if he IS scum.

I know a lot of you guys like to quote a million different things, and try to argue various things from them showing how this person is or isn't scum. That can work great. However, I sometimes prefer to take a step back, and think about the overall logic of the situation. You can twist around what someone says to mean pretty much whatever you want. Townies often die like this. However, the actual logic of WHY the player is playing like they are is something that's often overlooked. I've caught several wolves like this in the past, just because I thought to my self "why is X player acting like this, how would they act if they were a wolf? How would they act if they are town? Which one does logic say they are behaving like, based on everything I know about X player?

I do not think waynegg is the correct lynch for the day. I AM highly interested, however, in this lovely summery of people who jumped on the vote early on. I'm not very sold on DC725 being scum. SMP88 also has been neutral/town for me. I would take a guess that a townie (DC725) started attacking waynegg, and then at somewhere mid way on once it had drawn enough support to be safe (and there were enough posts to twist around to the point that no one knew who said what) a wolf hopped on. I would be willing to bet that at this point there are at least 2 wolves who have either voted for waynegg, or are actively attacking him.

The best part about this: Even if waynegg flips wolf, there are probably STILL at least 1-2 wolves who have either voted for him, or are actively attacking him. Though, they probably joined in the debate later on, and will be not nearly as aggressive in their attacks.

I don't think we should lynch him, but it seems to be a pretty win/win situation no matter what the outcome. It will give us good information no matter what he flips as.

As for my vote, JewlQuest hopped on right about when I would expect a wolf to venture in, especially considering the rather weak reasoning of passively agreeing with what has already been said by the initial attackers. I'm not sold on my vote, since this is a bit of a hit or miss method of scum hunting, however, I think it's currently our best option.

Unvote:Vablakes

Vote: JewlQuest


Here's wayneggs claim of what he was doing, as well as the list of the first several people who voted for him. We may have to dig a little deeper to find a wolf and look at the later voters, but I guarantee they're there, regardless of wayneggs alignment.

8. Finally...

After Vablakes described what he was trying to do on the last game day, I thought it would be interesting to actually do it on on the second day! Now the town has a list of 8 people who voted for me. There's been some clump voting here and there so it should make an interesting list to discuss. Take it how you will that both of the people I picked on voted for me. Personally, I would have been surprised if they hadn't.

Here's the list:

Benzo, post 932
pokemonfreak5, post 934
DagonClyne725, post 937
Glaceon, post 947
Human Destroyer, post 957
thunderjolt, post 963
SMP88, post 966
JewelQuest, post 969

 

[Sandslash7]

Nice and convenient you left out the most important part, and what influenced my vote the most for JQ- pop-in voting and using others' reasoning as her reasoning. That's as CLASSIC A WOLF TELL as you can get. The fact that I wrote out more stuff on pokemonfreak5 is really beside the point in the face of that. It's all about quality of evidence for my vote, not quantity. Agreed. I did leave that part out. Good catch. I only saw it as I went back later on my reread, since I was shortening the long sentences for a shorter link. However there are other players playing the exact same way. PikaJewel has the same exact D2 play as her sister. 2 posts, one of which being popping in to vote for a random bandwagon. To be thorough, analysis should be done on everyone. Perhaps this is the next step, as you have suggested. I'll proceed on that if I have time later today, and I suggest we all do so as well.

Boldness.

Rah! Rah! Hurry and lynch Wayne! Nice!

It's obvious I'm not going to convince you or a few others, but I can at least appeal to the common sense of everyone else.

Let me again point out the difference between D2 waynegg gambit from D1 Vablakes gambit:

• On Day 1 the play lasted all of 3 hours and 41 minutes before he got cold feet (or perhaps overeager) and caved on his strategy. He gained all of 3 votes in that time (I just went back and double checked so I didn't have to "iirc"). You can see it yourself between post 305 and post 317. For that gambit to work, you gotta let the votes role in and every now and then give a prod so some clump voting can happen that you can pull suspects from.
• On day 2 I began setting up the play on my first post. The real heat lasted for about 2 pages. In that time, I raised 8 votes for myself (more than a third of what is needed to lynch) with 2 areas of clump voting. Even pulled a follow up vote or two which could be referred back to if needed for later in the game. I still have a couple who appear to be going to any length to get me lynched.

What this gambit accomplishes for the town:

• Clump voting lets scum feel comfortable to slide their vote in on the cool.
• Leaves a viable list from which to pick and question suspects based on voting/participation irregularities
• Keeps the town from random voting out town roles based on nothing more than things such as not liking a particular person's play style or 'tone' to their text
• Leaves an after list of scum players who are actively pushing for the lynch on the townie who played the gambit, after all, 2 town kills in a day serve the scum best

Excellent. This is the kind of analysis that is necessary.

I literally lol'd when I read this:

Scum have to act scummy and town can act only friendly. My foot! If this game were that simple nobody would care to play it. The game would be too easy and end after very few phases. This coming from a game mod is quite interesting in itself. Maybe SS7 is following his own made up rules. Hmm...

Bold please.



Again, you fall back on "coming from a game mod." Please stop referencing things that have no bearing on this game. It matters not whether I have modded a game, or played ever at all.


Again, you are strawmanning my argument. That is scummy.

I never said the town can "act only friendly." Please do not strawman my points again. You are not helping your case by doing this. And please talk to me if you are going to, rather than talking out of the side of your mouth to the rest of the village about my credibility or playstyle.


You are missing my point, by highlighting the first part of my statement without paying attention to the most important part, the second portion. The second, and important part, is "because it is in their nature." Scum MUST act scummy because they are scum. Eventually at some point they must forgo reason and logic to force a lynch to happen, because if they truly looked at the evidence they would see that the FOTD is innocent. It is up to the town to find those instantiations and close the noose. Why else are there scumtells? How else does the town win?

If townies are allowed to act scummy then scum are allowed that same freedom. Effectively that removes on half of the town's power in finding the scum.

Are you saying that townies should act scummy? This is what your posts seem to be saying. How is that serving the town win condition?





As for your vote, I already said that I am forgiving of IRL circumstances. However I also noted that a vote that you felt strong conviction about seems like a strange thing to forget for 4 posts, over the course of 14 hours, especially when no mention of the voted player or questions as to her rebuttal were made.




Finally, your statements at the end of your post are questionable.

And then there's my rhetoric itself. There is a very noticeable difference in the tone of my posts now as opposed to the first half of the day. Why would that be, other than the fact that I was truly running that gambit over? I could have easily taken this tone from the start of the day and avoided all of this by just mulling along and hoping someone was flushed out. And we still wouldn't have anything more than unfounded accusations to go off.

As DragonClyne pointed out, we only have 2 days left. How about we systematically question the viable suspects and see if the town can't find an actual wolf. If we don't, then we'll waste another day and give up two or more townspeople in the process.

I'm addressing the underlined. This does not sit well with me. You seem to be saying in the first part that the only progress the town will have made would have been through unfounded accusations. Is this correct?

Second, I like the first part of the plan, but I don't like the last bit, in bold. How do you know that the village will lose two more townspeople? How do you know that Jellyfisher is/was a townsperson? Are you assuming that he is a townsperson? Because it is just as likely that he is/was not a townsperson until his card flips.

These assumptions are bad if you are town, and are misleading if you are scum.



Overall, I do like the quality of your posts more now, and you have some good analysis and reasons in the second post that I quoted above. But the details are still nagging me, and I don't like the tone, the assumptions, and the rhetorical angle.

 

[Benzo]

Posted by SS7

Second, I like the first part of the plan, but I don't like the last bit, in bold. How do you know that the village will lose two more townspeople? How do you know that Jellyfisher is/was a townsperson? Are you assuming that he is a townsperson? Because it is just as likely that he is/was not a townsperson until his card flips.

These assumptions are bad if you are town, and are misleading if you are scum.

er, what? How/what does Jellyfisher have anything to do with the end of THIS day for lynching Waynegg and he flips town?
Waynegg flips town, and the wolves have TWO townies down. Nothing, nothing nothing nothing of what Waynegg said has to do with Jellyfisher. Why did you even place this in here? You do know Waynegg is town- why else would you stick that bit of info in this at all? Incrimination? Misleading? Scum will mislead, how else does scum get townies lynched? Any one can tell right off that Waynegg is stateing that for THIS DAY- your really going to also include a compliment to Waynegg as to him making better logic and posts, but you know it is down to the wire time wise and a great majority of players are on his case that "if" in case Waynegg flips town you have that to fall back onto to say "well, I blah blah blah" to get out of being under suspicion as a person who voted to lynch a townie?


UNVOTE: JQ

VOTE: SS7


Waynegg, I should stick to my intitial hunch- you are crazy to have even said the whole "outing the seer"- no real time to explain, let me just say I needed time to make certain, youll know why later-

JQ- thanks to SS7, your off the hook. But please do not go anywhere, I think Glaceon would be a bit disapointed, as I find him on the scum side with his post about something along the lines of " when your team mates caught you and told you to stop"- and something along the lines of "JQ leaning townie to me honestly"- yeah- either way I do not like that situation, - but that is for the next day-

 

[Human Destroyer]

The fact that waynegg isn't hanging from a tree yet is disturbing.

I have a question directed at anyone who's played with Benzo before. Are posts like this typical of him? To me, it looks like scum trying to obfuscate scumminess with a huge wall of unformatted text. If this is his usual meta though, it's a null tell. My first impression of the post was town, but looking back on it after reading some MS games...yeah.

@Benzo, if you think waynegg is not town aligned, why aren't you voting for him? There's no telling what kind of power him/his faction has, so saying "I'm going to unvote him because he isn't a wolf" is silly and suspicious.

@Waynegg, I'd like to know what makes you think I am "following the flavor of the day".

@PP101: Oh no! PM is playing like he usually does! Whatever shall we do?! ;-; Your PM vote looks opportunistic to me, and I'm not liking it.

Also, everyone who isn't voting waynegg, the last paragraph in this post is the scummiest in the whole game.

Just wanted to make sure everyone saw that. I'm done for now.

 

[pokemonplayer101]

@Benzo, if you think waynegg is not town aligned, why aren't you voting for him? There's no telling what kind of power him/his faction has, so saying "I'm going to unvote him because he isn't a wolf" is silly and suspicious.

@PP101: Oh no! PM is playing like he usually does! Whatever shall we do?! ;-; Your PM vote looks opportunistic to me, and I'm not liking it.

@the part about Benzo not voting for waynegg:

Is it not possible to be suspicious of more than one person? For example, I think that both waynegg and PM are looking suspicious right now.



@the part about me:

I've played at least 3 games with PM, and not once have I seen him play like that. If it was his normal playstyle, then I wouldn't have called him out like that.

I wish I could post more,, but I'm only on my phone. I'll also be at a Cities tomorrow, and then going to do some family stuff afterwards, so , unfortunately I won't be able to contribute much at all before the day ends.

Also, I'd change my vote to waynegg so we have a lynch, but I can't bold on my phone. Maybe Pika or LEX could count this for me anyway? :/

UNVOTE: Pmysterious
VOTE: Waynegg

I'll still have my eye on you tomorrow, PM.
Posted with mobile style....

 

[Your_Face]

I am voting for waynegg because he seems suspicious for using the gambit that Vablakes used.

 

[Human Destroyer]

@the part about Benzo not voting for waynegg:

Is it not possible to be suspicious of more than one person? For example, I think that both waynegg and PM are looking suspicious right now.

My problem is that the reason he cites the change of vote is because Waynegg is probably anti-town, but probably isn't a wolf. We need to lynch every anti-town, not just wolves, and that is the part I don't like.

...PM's play looks very similar, if not identical to XVII C, correct me if I'm wrong.

@Your_Face: OMGUP! (That stands for, Oh My God You Posted!) Firstly, you need to make your vote in the right format (i.e. Vote: Person). Secondly, any thoughts on some other players?

 

[Vablakes]

Hey guys, sorry, I have been super busy with Christmas junk. I also wanted to say that I don't have too much time right now, but Waynegg is looking suspicious. I really don't need to explain it, it would pretty much just be saying the exact same thing that everyone else is. Him using the same Gambit as me, acting scummy, ect. I am in a rush, so I don't have enough time to make a long post, aand I probably can't post again during this day phase, so:

Vote: Waynegg

 

[Pikamaster]

VOTE COUNT:
41 Remaining
21 to lynch


Waynegg- 10 (Pokemonfreak5, Dragonclyne725, Glaceon, Human Destroyer, Thunderjolt, JewelQuest, Diaz, Sandslash7, Vablakes, SMP88)

Vablakes- 4 (Scorri, StrongRhino, Jpulice, Pikajewel)

Shinori- 1 (Crimsonsky)

Crimsonsky- 1 (Prohawk)

Dragonclyne725- 2 (G landers, TheKing)

JewelQuest- 2 (Waynegg, DarthPika)

PMysterious- 1 (Pokemonplayer101)

Sandslash7- 1 (Benzo)


If your vote is not on here, or isn't on who you want it to be, that's because you didn't vote right. The correct way to vote looks like this:

UNVOTE: (Whoever you voted for before, if any)
VOTE: (Whoever you're voting for)

Without this format, and your vote being in bold, your vote will not count.

 

[SMP88]

I switched my vote from vablakes to waynegg in this post: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2370420&postcount=966

Formatting looks fine.

 

[Pikamaster]

Must've missed it... Vote count is corrected.

 

[DarthPika]

I am voting for waynegg because he seems suspicious for using the gambit that Vablakes used.

Really? Is that why you're voting for him? This is the first time you've posted in heaven only knows how long, and you're throwing that out as a reason to cast a vote for someone?

FoS: Your_Face

 

[waynegg]

This! OMG this!!

The fact that waynegg isn't hanging from a tree yet is disturbing.

I'll let Sandslash7 explain my vote, if anybody needs an explanation to something so obvious. SS7- Who rushes the vote stage and pushes to close the phase a day early?

@HD's question directed at me.. Because you are.

UNVOTE: JewelQuest (still think you are likely scummy, but obvious scum is obvious)
VOTE: Human Destroyer

 

[ProHawk]

Well, it looks like CrimsonSky isn't going to make it back on and no-one else seems to care....

I won't support waynegg for a lynch. He pretty much summed it up nicely in his post.

Then there's the pure risk of the gambit itself. The player who runs the gambit sticks their neck out to help the town, literally. If they can't rein it back in, they stand the very real chance of being lynched. What good, experienced player would do that if they had a wolf role? Right after someone did such a horrible job with it just the phase before? Provide the town with a voting list that is sure to contain at least 1, if not more, wolves and take the chance of being lynched themselves? I'll tell ya. None. It makes no sense as it would be extremely detrimental to a team which is already in the minority.

I have never played with Waynegg, and have only been in one game where he subbed in, but later died before he had a chance to play. I do remember hearing that he was a well seasoned and good player. That is why I didn't understand what he was doing until he explained his position. Why would a good seasoned player use do such a newbie move such as mis-use one of cabd's tells to try and make someone look like scum? I couldn't figure it out until he explained it. What he did makes perfect sense to me and honestly would be too risky for scum to do.

Hey guys, sorry, I have been super busy with Christmas junk. I also wanted to say that I don't have too much time right now, but Waynegg is looking suspicious. I really don't need to explain it, it would pretty much just be saying the exact same thing that everyone else is. Him using the same Gambit as me, acting scummy, ect. I am in a rush, so I don't have enough time to make a long post, aand I probably can't post again during this day phase, so:

Vote: Waynegg

^This bolded is wow. A vote on Waynegg for using the same Gambit? So what does that say about you if you "used the gambit" Vablakes? Honestly, it actually looked like Waynegg used a gambit, but you... not so much. If anything I would have thought you would have been sympathetic to someone who was in the same position as you were D1, not opportunistically attacking them.

I thought you were scum before D1 ended, and am pretty sure you still are.

UNVOTE: CRIMSONSKY
VOTE: VABLAKES

 

[Human Destroyer]

This! OMG this!!

I'll let Sandslash7 explain my vote, if anybody needs an explanation to something so obvious. SS7- Who rushes the vote stage and pushes to close the phase a day early?

@HD's question directed at me.. Because you are.

UNVOTE: JewelQuest (still think you are likely scummy, but obvious scum is obvious)
VOTE: Human Destroyer

Not really rushing it with only a day left and 12 more votes needed.

Besides, you're so obviously scum there really shouldn't BE too much discussion left to do in this particular day. If we want to get 21 votes for a lynch, now is the time to start.

Also, waynegg, you are the only popular lynch I've followed (vegi doesn't count because I was literally on it for 5 minutes), and I'm pretty much convinced you're scum. Every other vote has been "against the tide", so to speak, so I find it strange you would call me our on that of all things.

 

[DarthPika]

Hey guys, sorry, I have been super busy with Christmas junk. I also wanted to say that I don't have too much time right now, but Waynegg is looking suspicious. I really don't need to explain it, it would pretty much just be saying the exact same thing that everyone else is. Him using the same Gambit as me, acting scummy, ect. I am in a rush, so I don't have enough time to make a long post, aand I probably can't post again during this day phase, so:

Vote: Waynegg

Missed this gem of a post earlier on. He's trying to say he's scummy for using the SAME gambit as him earlier on? Why shouldn't he give it a try, especially since he seemed to pull it off? You don't need to explain WHY he's suspicious? And you top it off by saying you can't post again, and conveniently hurry off? Some people may have forgotten that YOU were in the hot seat earlier, but I have not. I think it's unlikely that we'll figure out who the wolves are in the mess of voters who attacked waynegg with so little time, but you just earned your self back my vote.

Vablakes is a pokemon, therefore independent. Therefore, it is in our best interest to kill him. Especially after he dropped off the face of the earth while the accusations against him died down, and now he tries to slip in a quick scummy vote against someone with absolutely horrible reasoning. I suggest we vote Vablakes, and not waynegg. I believe waynegg to not be scum. Vablakes on the other hand, is playing like scum. At least waynegg explained him self.

Unvote: Jewl_Quest

Vote: Vablakes

 

[TheKing]

Hey guys, sorry, I have been super busy with Christmas junk. I also wanted to say that I don't have too much time right now, but Waynegg is looking suspicious. I really don't need to explain it, it would pretty much just be saying the exact same thing that everyone else is. Him using the same Gambit as me, acting scummy, ect. I am in a rush, so I don't have enough time to make a long post, aand I probably can't post again during this day phase, so:

Vote: Waynegg

Read this as "I want to put a bandwagon vote out, but I'm too lazy to even copy + paste other people's reasons"

Unvoteragonclyne725
Vote:Vablakes

 

[dave628]

Vablakes, specifically what is your reason for voting Waynegg? Do humor us and explain your reasoning. Using your logic what Waynegg did was scummy, then by your definition you are also scummy.

Both you and Your Face are acting very scummy right now, voting with the popular vote without giving any substantial reason or logic behind it. I really wish I could vote for both of you. It really looks like you receives some coaching from your scum friends on day 1. In addition, your last post was so full of contradiction. Thus, you have earn my vote. 2 days of acting like a scum compare to Your Face's one day of acting like a scum.

Vote: Vablakes

 

[JewelQuest]

@waynegg:Surprise, surprise, the scum says that it's scumminess is fake. I don't buy it. As Diaz said, people keep trying to cover up their scumminess by pretending to have been trying too. I'm sorry, but if you are townie, acting scummy is not the way to survive. Perhaps if you end up town believe you, but at the moment, I don't think that the town has any reason too.

Here are your 'points' that you say make me 'scummy'.

1.

Hasn't really contributed (alot of place holder posts and post talking about his and his sister's internet arrangement)

First off, I am a girl.
I am not quite sure what you mean by 'place holder posts', but I am doing my best to contribute to the town, so I am offended by the fact that you feel that I am not contributing.
And would you rather that we just disappeared without bothering to tell everybody why we aren't on?

Has only posted twice this game day, one of which was to pop in, vote for the flavor of the day (me), and then disappear again.

I've had a very busy week, with it being the holidays and all, so excuse me for wanting to spend more time with my actual family than with total strangers on the internet.
And I wasn't just 'voting for the flavor of the day'. I really think that you are scum, and I didn't just agree with someone and vote you, I provided my own evidence against you, and then I voted you.

Seems to lurk quite a bit

I am not sure as of how to answer this, as I haven't been lurking at all. Everytime I can, I get on, read what is going on, and type up a post if I have time.

All of your points against me are rather false.

JewelQuest.

For the sake of time, simple "hopped on" the wagon, even though I did not buy into Waynegg's "out the seer" (which right away made me think that Waynegg said that for a reaction, which made me think that he is up to something)

UNVOTE: Waynegg
VOTE: JewelQuest

I thank you for spelling my username correctly. I usually do not mind, but it is nice to see that somebody is trying.

Now, your accusations...

I did not 'simple(or did you mean 'simply'?) "hopped on" the wagon'. I truly believed(and still do) that waynegg is scum, perhaps indie if not wolf. When I look back, I see now that he probably was fishing for a reaction. He is an experienced player, and I highly doubt that as town, wolf, or indie he would do something that foolish. But, I still stand by my other points, as I do not believe that he had a plan, except perhaps a plan to spring this to explain his scummy actions.

Back to waynegg(I'm writing this as I read)

By the time I realized I hadn't added my vote (when Benzo pointed it out) it was well too late to do so and not look bad for it.

VOTE: JewelQuest

Hmph. Looks like you did just what SS7 said: You waited until someone else had jumped on me, and then you jumped on me. Nevermind that, according to you, PF5 is more scummy.

Nice and convenient you left out the most important part, and what influenced my vote the most for JQ- pop-in voting and using others' reasoning as her reasoning. That's as CLASSIC A WOLF TELL as you can get. The fact that I wrote out more stuff on pokemonfreak5 is really beside the point in the face of that. It's all about quality of evidence for my vote, not quantity

Agreed. I did leave that part out. Good catch. I only saw it as I went back later on my reread, since I was shortening the long sentences for a shorter link. However there are other players playing the exact same way. PikaJewel has the same exact D2 play as her sister. 2 posts, one of which being popping in to vote for a random bandwagon. To be thorough, analysis should be done on everyone. Perhaps this is the next step, as you have suggested. I'll proceed on that if I have time later today, and I suggest we all do so as well.

My sister is not used to playing this game, and isn't all that into it at this time. The reason for our 'popping' is because we've been rather busy this week, with our family. Again, excuse us for wanting to spend time with our families and not with total strangers on the internet.

When I do post, I am making sure I am putting as much into it as possible(PikaJewel doesn't seem to be doing that, but I'm not in control of what she does), so that it's quality of my posts over quanity.

To Benzo again:

JQ- thanks to SS7, your off the hook. But please do not go anywhere, I think Glaceon would be a bit disapointed, as I find him on the scum side with his post about something along the lines of " when your team mates caught you and told you to stop"- and something along the lines of "JQ leaning townie to me honestly"- yeah- either way I do not like that situation, - but that is for the next day-

'Off the hook' you say? I really never thought I was on it, considering that I only had three votes on me wiht twenty-one to lynch. I find it odd that you, DP, and waynegg seem to be all agreeing and defending each other....

And now I see that I once again have no votes on me as I come to the end of the page.

I might have missed something, as I am tired at the moment...But I did my best. See ya'll later.