Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Bluffing and SOTG

Lordofflareons said:
I love bluffing. Every game, if someone says, "did i attach yet?" i answer yes. "Did i evolve this turn?" Yes. The only person you can trust in a game is yourself and the judge. Just dont ask anything and only base wghat they mioght have in the hand on what you have seen, dont ask, " you got the x to win?"
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say someone didnt evolve yet, but they ask you and you say yes. they then attempt to evolve. do you stop them and say "no you already evolved this turn"? that seems wrong.

thats the one thing i hate about pokemon. other than memory, no way to keep track of attaching energy, evolving, using pokepowers, already used up your 1 retreat for the turn, etc.
 
mom- Light bluffing that doesn't cause your opponent to do anything but think about your actions and doing something like that are drastically different. Showing a card from your hand and acting like you're playing it, especially a card like that, is horrid. "Ughing" as you look through your deck on the first turn when you Call for Family and saying "ohh my XXX is prized" when it really isn't seems perfectly acceptable to me. It's mind games; when you get to the highest level of competition, the skill difference is so small, that often mind games come into big play.
 
perfect example this Regs.

Top 4 in the Midwest, Ness "bluffed" on a play by putting his opponents Gyarados at 100, and asked if he could flip over the last prize for the KO. He made it seemed like he had misplayed, so his opponent didn't let him take back the misplay and Koed Ness' Gallade. Next turn Ness played an Absol Ex to KO a benched Banette. Then KOed the active Gyarados. Leaving his opponent with pretty much nothing and making him scoop.

Mind games, gotta love them.
 
Lordofflareons said:
I love bluffing. Every game, if someone says, "did i attach yet?" i answer yes. "Did i evolve this turn?" Yes. The only person you can trust in a game is yourself and the judge. Just dont ask anything and only base wghat they mioght have in the hand on what you have seen, dont ask, " you got the x to win?"
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I'm the same way. If someone can't remember whether or not they did something as important as attaching for the turn or when they evolved, I'm not going to be the one that clues them in. I understand that I am responsible for keeping up with game state, but if you are serious player, you should be able to keep track of what you're doing in a single turn.
 
^Agreed. There is a MASSIVE difference between bluffing and putting your opponent in a situation where they will end up breaking the rules, or even lying to them. If asked if they attatched this turn, I answer truthfully, same as if they ask any other question.

I actually caught one of my opponents trying to lie to me, so I made sure one of my nearby friends was listening as I asked my opponent if I had attatched this turn. They said yes. I then proceded to call over a judge, and say VERY LOUDLY that my opponent had lied about attatching energy and violated the spirit of the game. There was nothing the judge could do, of course, but I had indirectly told everyone at the vicinity that my opponent was not to be trusted. I have not seen this player since. Dirty tricks work both ways people, it will ALWAYS come back to you.
 
By way of example I can bluff in two completely different ways.

  • make plays designed to indicate a position of weakness or strength.
  • make incorrect statemements about my hand/deck/prizes. (ie Lie)

I have no issue with the head-games associated with the former and believe that the latter clearly breaks the penalty guidelines. There is a spectrum of grey tactics possible between these two. The Head Judge makes the call on those and I know those calls will vary by region. However if we are being held to demonstrate high SoTG at tournaments then don't be surprised if many of the grey tactics are also deemed unacceptable. High SoTG seems inconsistant with marginal tactics intended to mislead the opponent. I want games to be decided at the tables and to be a test of player skill at PTCG and not by a players ability to use either body language or spoken language creatively.
 
OK, that situation from PokeDad is sickening and wrong, so I dont want to go into that, but here's what I want to ask the morale knights.

Why should I not lie about the contents of my deck, if my opponent doesnt know its contents, considering my deck is personal? If I feel like saying "I might have Card X in my deck", then whats keeping me from that? Minor mind games are part of this game after all. There's a fine line between bluffing and intimidating.

The way I see it, theres nothing wrong with bluffing. It causes your opponent to carefully reconsider and maybe make an error. I've been able to get my opponent to retreat their active poke for Absol to empty my hand by saying I had a fistful of trainers, while in reality, I held 2 Claydol and a slew of energy. Would that be called wrong? No, he believed me, so he made the error of doing so. Never did I show my hand, after all.

Anything that is in the game at that point and thus should be known by the opponent (That is: Cards in play, Cards in discard, How many cards in hand), one shouldn't lie about. If I play Copycat and you tell me you have 7 rather as 9 cards in hand, thats wrong. But what I have in hand is NOT common knowledge, only I know. Why shouldn't I use that information as a bluff, I ask?

Long story short; whats wrong with some little mind tricks if you're "revealing" things about what your opponent shouldnt know anyway?
 
SD PokéMom said:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=652370&postcount=8

so is this what those of you in favor of this consider 'bluffing'? and therefore 'legal'?

'mom
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The rules are clear. Any intentional move that causes your opponent to do a game-play error is cheating.

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SPARTA said:
I actually caught one of my opponents trying to lie to me, so I made sure one of my nearby friends was listening as I asked my opponent if I had attatched this turn. They said yes. I then proceded to call over a judge, and say VERY LOUDLY that my opponent had lied about attatching energy and violated the spirit of the game. There was nothing the judge could do, of course, but I had indirectly told everyone at the vicinity that my opponent was not to be trusted. I have not seen this player since. Dirty tricks work both ways people, it will ALWAYS come back to you.
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That's entrapment. Once again, you CAN'T "bait" your opponent into doing a game-play error or violating the rules. Police who use entrapment often get "thrown out of court."

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NoPoke said:
I want games to be decided at the tables and to be a test of player skill at PTCG and not by a players ability to use either body language or spoken language creatively.
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Well then, what about players who READ other players' body language? We have a local player who verbalizes just about everything he does. He's an outstanding player, but his inability to hide his "tells" enables other players to easily beat him.

A few years ago at Worlds, I watched my opponent's hands shake as I continued to attack with Disconnect over and over. I then did something different and his hands stopped shaking. I lost. In hindsight, I should've continued to make his hands shake.
 
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SteveP said:
The rules are clear. Any intentional move that causes your opponent to do a game-play error is cheating.
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and as i understand it, the REASON the penalty guides were updated to state that was because of this very situation...

'mom
 
SteveP, I'm fairly sure that the very best players use every bit of information available in trying to determine what is in their opponents hand and what they are likely to do next turn. I'm fairly sure that the best players do as much as they can to disguise their intentions and to minimize their own tells. I have no issue with any of that. Trying not to give away information about your hand is worlds away from deliberately lieing about it.
 
SD PokéMom said:
and as i understand it, the REASON the penalty guides were updated to state that was because of this very situation...

'mom
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Per Kim Cary "The Charlie C. Rule" was added after Worlds '06:

7.6.4. Cheating
Examples of Unsporting Conduct: Cheating include:
*Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.
Recommended Starting Penalty: Disqualification

I thought of Charlie's game when I first read this thread, but didn't comment until Mom referenced it.

I don't think any bluff should involve a lie, lies should not be part of Pokemon, lies violate the Spirit of the Game.

Game play that does not involve a lie, or violate rule 7.6.4., is game play. Some of this game play may be considered bluffing; but there are obviously degrees of bluffing, and some do violate game rules.

My son Charlie had a great time at Worlds '06, in spite of the dubious gamesmanship he encountered, and is pleased that a rule preventing similar game play cheating abuses was written into the penalty guideline document with him in mind.
 
SteveP said:
That's entrapment. Once again, you CAN'T "bait" your opponent into doing a game-play error or violating the rules. Police who use entrapment often get "thrown out of court."
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I beg to differ. I knew my opponent was lying, and I wanted everyone around me to know it as well. I knew the judge wouldn't be able to do a single thing, but it gave me a reason to say loudly to the judge that my opponent was violating the spirit of the game. If telling the pokemon players around me not to trust that lying scumbag makes me a bad person, then I am a horrible person.
 
NoPoke said:
SteveP, I'm fairly sure that the very best players use every bit of information available in trying to determine what is in their opponents hand and what they are likely to do next turn. I'm fairly sure that the best players do as much as they can to disguise their intentions and to minimize their own tells. I have no issue with any of that. Trying not to give away information about your hand is worlds away from deliberately lieing about it.
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In your attempt to get information, why not allow "active" bluffing actions as well as "passive" observations?

In many competitive activities, players attempt to "fake" their opponent. In basketball, you have the head fake. In football, you have the curl. In volleyball, you have the stack. Each of those moves is an "active" attempt to fake your opponent.

Now, I can see your point about deliberately lying, somewhat. For example, if during a game of basketball, I deflect a pass out of bounds, but yell "I don't touch it!," hoping my opponent will lunge to save the ball, possibly touching the ball himself as it goes out of bounds, then the referee might deem that as lying to the ref. So, in certain situations, I suppose lying could be penalized.
 
PokeDad said:
I don't think any bluff should involve a lie, lies should not be part of Pokemon, lies violate the Spirit of the Game.

Game play that does not involve a lie, or violate rule 7.6.4., is game play. Some of this game play may be considered bluffing; but there are obviously degrees of bluffing, and some do violate game rules.
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Wait, hold on here.

Imagine this scenario. My opponent is about to play a 4th Pokemon on his/her bench. What if at this point I remark, say, "Good, Dusknoir shall like that". Is that a lie? Don't think so, people know Dusknoir lurks around every corner nowadays. So who says I dont have it? All that happens here is that I'm getting my opponent to rethink his actions, and wonder about my deck.

Thats where I think that lies.....well....not entirely justified, but consider it this way. Why can't I bluff about what I have in my hand, be it that I have it or don't?

With Dubious Game Actions, I think we should look more at the example given, y'know, the kind that causes misplays that have Prize/Game penalties. Which is more Rulesharking as Bluffing. Thin line there.
 
SPARTA said:
I beg to differ. I knew my opponent was lying, and I wanted everyone around me to know it as well. I knew the judge wouldn't be able to do a single thing, but it gave me a reason to say loudly to the judge that my opponent was violating the spirit of the game. If telling the pokemon players around me not to trust that lying scumbag makes me a bad person, then I am a horrible person.
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Your desire to uncover misconduct wasn't horrible, but the methods you employ to do so must be legal. A police "sting" generally involves a court order. If police conduct a "sting" without court authorization, that's called entrapment, it's usually thrown of of court, and the judge usually scolds the cops.

Sometimes, the bad guys get away because the good guys use dubious tactics.
 
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