Worlds Judging... questionable conduct?

[davidy321]

In my last round (in seniors), my opponent completely destroyed my sleeves after shuffling for literally 2minutes. I am sure it was intentional. I was going to call the judge but after the first 15 seconds, a few sleeves had already split and I could not be bothered. Let's just say that the country he was from already has a bad reputation and now it is worse for me. Obviously I will not say which country..

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

As far as language goes -

I was playing a game with a Japanese opponent. I was at the edge of the tables (so like the spectators could see everything, and even if they spoke quietly I/we could hear them. In the match, sometime, two Japanese people came over (as close as they get virtually) and starting speaking Japanese watching the player/and our game. This made me quite uncomfortable, although I knew that it was most likely they weren't saying anything to the player. Anything along the lines of 'oh it's that deck', or any discussion could influence outcome.

In the end, I was uncomfortable for a while, but did not complain as i trust the Japanese (=p). Eventually a judge came over and told them to please step back (politely). Somewhere else in this post, people mention about being offended because of non english players being close to games. IMO this is the right thing to do (assuming the staff are being polite), as my example should clearly back up.


===

LOL here is an example I think WPM etc may be referring to
http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img7129op9.jpg

 

[Diaz]

I saw some excellent judging and some bad judging at worlds. I think that sometimes judges being nicer would go a long way. I feel that we might be better off rotating some of the judges for major events.

If a player makes a mistake they get kicked out of the event, or a game loss. When a judge makes a mistake it seems like nothing happens.
I've heard of some atrocious rulings at some major events. Like judges scooping for a player before the game ended and that player getting a game loss.<happened a while ago I wont go into details, I don't want discussion to be about this ruling in particular. When this sort of thing happens, I dont think that that person should continue to judge large scale events.

Judges need to be kept track of, and penalized when they make mistakes (in the same way players are) Maybe this sort of thing does happen. I'm sure theres stuff going on behind the scenes, but to a player, it doesn't appear that much is being done.

 

[PokePop]

I saw some excellent judging and some bad judging at worlds. I think that sometimes judges being nicer would go a long way. I feel that we might be better off rotating some of the judges for major events.

If a player makes a mistake they get kicked out of the event, or a game loss. When a judge makes a mistake it seems like nothing happens.
I've heard of some atrocious rulings at some major events. Like judges scooping for a player before the game ended and that player getting a game loss.<happened a while ago I wont go into details, I don't want discussion to be about this ruling in particular. When this sort of thing happens, I dont think that that person should continue to judge large scale events.

Judges need to be kept track of, and penalized when they make mistakes (in the same way players are) Maybe this sort of thing does happen. I'm sure theres stuff going on behind the scenes, but to a player, it doesn't appear that much is being done.

When an event is reported, there is a link that players can click on to send a report to PUI about that event.
Believe me, if they get multiple reports about a judge making error after error, they would pay attention to it.
On the flip side, it would also be nice to send PUI a report if you felt staff was outstanding or went above and beyond.

 

[Jaeger]

In my opinion Judges are like Umpires, there not always going to make the right call and no matter what they do somebodys going to be mad at them.

I personally did not have any problems, most of my opponents were really cool. And I had no problems with the Judges. All in all it was a great weekend.

 

[NoPoke]

davidy321: I was a human tensa barrier at Worlds 2005. Believe me its not easy. There is no way of telling from the photo if the red shirt was being impolite or polite.

 

[EeveeLover]

Actually, that photo looks like a Blue (Masters) watching Green (Seniors). Either way, the Red Shirt is doing his job. The player from Masters is what, 1 foot outside the game? Any closer, he might as well be sitting on the table.

That was the job though, to provide a good environment for all players, not just certain ones.

Since the players have the different colored lanyards, I have to assume that this is Sat, when all the players we trying very hard to make the top to get to Sundays matches. Do those players deserve to have a quiet place to play, without someone standing right on top of them? According to PUI, yes, they do. That is why the Greens and Reds provide security in the first place and keep players out of certain areas.

For those that have had issues with Reds / Greens and Judges, look at the photo, it shows what a Red looked like. Notice - no Lab Coat (not a Judge).

 

[THE FT. LAUD. LOUD MOUTH]

Sorry Im late to chime in with my opinion.... you know, being banned from gym and stuff

Personally I didn't have a problem with any of the staff, personally I found the entire worlds experance awsome.

The location execellent.

Even though I wasnt a player ive got to say- Those Worlds Competer kits.... very cool.

Prizes for league and side events execellent.

Retail store- great

Lucairo downoad, Artist signings, Movie/Gameing Room, 24 hour play room- awsome

Judging was top notch all around cept for one TP ruleing I heard about (see Lazorman)

Staff was very professional from what I saw

Opening/Closeing cermonys- EPIC, Loved the opening cermony video

Video Game Showdown was a great addation to the worlds expereace, Could of been more diverse though (Next time- give other countrys a chance) So we have TCG Worlds and the VGS, whats next? Figure game also?

Meeting so many people from around the world was so great, but there was one thing missing, well more like 5. What is getting to me is during the opening video I saw that there was 30 National Championships, but only 25 Countries repusented, what I would like to see happen is to make sure that there is at least 1 person per divsion from each of those 30 countries repusented, yeah I know they have invites, but IMO trips are needed to make sure that every country with OP is repusented.


Great Memories, Great People, Thank You POP for making Worlds and Every event leading up to it a memoable one

 

[LovingTheAlien]

I had just BARELY won my 3rd game in the grinder, on 1.5 hours of sleep, when I walked away, leaving a die on the table. I realized this almost immediately, and before I even left the play area, I started walking back. A volunteer (green shirt) put himself in front of me rather abruptly and told me "Leave the play area". I explained my situation, and he didn't seem to believe me, but let me go get it, before escorting me out of the play area. He gave me really dirty looks the rest of the day.

I can also vouch for the Brazillian player (Leonardo G, if I remember) getting treated badly by a judge(the head judge, according to the portuguese translator). He was losing the match, playing mothim/gyarados against an empoleon something if I'm correct. He had a cess. crystal on his active pokemon, and his opponent started using cosmic power, and actually drew his cards. Speaking portuguese, he called over a judge, and tried to explain what had happened. What the portuguese translator told me was that the judge told him that it was his responsibility to stop him from drawing the cards, and then threatened to give him a warning. He lost the game.

I believe that would be a "terrible judgement". Was he supposed to physically stop him from taking the cards? Or should he have known how to say "Don't draw" in english? I think it was a bit unfair.

 

[Lawman]

I had just BARELY won my 3rd game in the grinder, on 1.5 hours of sleep, when I walked away, leaving a die on the table. I realized this almost immediately, and before I even left the play area, I started walking back. A volunteer (green shirt) put himself in front of me rather abruptly and told me "Leave the play area". I explained my situation, and he didn't seem to believe me, but let me go get it, before escorting me out of the play area. He gave me really dirty looks the rest of the day.

I can also vouch for the Brazillian player (Leonardo G, if I remember) getting treated badly by a judge(the head judge, according to the portuguese translator). He was losing the match, playing mothim/gyarados against an empoleon something if I'm correct. He had a cess. crystal on his active pokemon, and his opponent started using cosmic power, and actually drew his cards. Speaking portuguese, he called over a judge, and tried to explain what had happened. What the portuguese translator told me was that the judge told him that it was his responsibility to stop him from drawing the cards, and then threatened to give him a warning. He lost the game.

I believe that would be a "terrible judgement". Was he supposed to physically stop him from taking the cards? Or should he have known how to say "Don't draw" in english? I think it was a bit unfair.

So, you are getting second hand info on the ruling above?? What do you think the cess crystal player's responsibility should be?? Should they 'allow' a move to occur, leading to a broken gamestate and THEN call a judge over OR should they point to the cess and put their hand out to slow the other player down?? Yes, both players are responible for playing field gamestates! (btw....a simple hand out when the player pointed to the Claydol's power would have sufficed. The american player DID point to the cosmic power, both players agreed to that!)

As one of the judges involved in this situation (yes, the foreign player COULD speak english bc he told ME the player used cosmic power w. cess crystal out on active poke....yes, he said ALL that before asking for translator), the HJ was called for very quickly bc the decision could be as low as warnings for each up to PP or even GL. After asking several Qs with the interpreter there, a proper ruling was made.

The only way the brazilian player was going to win that match was via a GL to his oppo. The brazilian player was given the benefit of the doubt on a "dubious game action" and wasnt given a GL for the move. If you dont believe me, know this, a MA player at US Nats this year was given a GL for exactly the same play.....allowing the gamestate to become broken for not stopping his oppo from claydol'ing with a cess active.

Keith

 

[davidy321]

davidy321: I was a human tensa barrier at Worlds 2005. Believe me its not easy. There is no way of telling from the photo if the red shirt was being impolite or polite.

Haha I know, don't worry, I just felt it was a funny photo in reply to the topic.

As for the cosmic power, the story is in ChaosJim's 4th place report.
It was clearly obvious the player was trying to get a penalty assigned, as Lawman said, he tapped, and the guy didn't stop him, and waiting until AFTER he drew.. Also, it was an obvious win for the Empo player too if I read the report correctly (although I can't remember about this part for CERTAIN)

 

[DarkLugia]

Rulings by different judges for similar situations can be quite different. In T8 (junior) my son was up 2-5 in prizes with his opponent's field consisting of basics and 1 claydol. Opponent advances a ralts & attaches a cess. My son announces cosmic power, was NOT stopped by his opponent, drew 2 cards, KO's the ralts. His opponent 'realises', calls over the judge + HJ and my son gets a game loss. Supposedly broken game state and my son had shuffled his hand and it would be unable to be certain of the said 2 cards drawn (although my son claims it was still at the corner of his hand). Why reward an opponent (in a losing state) with a win for a game state (cess) that he brought into play and did not help maintain.

In the 2nd game he 'tries' the same thing (son winning 3-5). Claiming my son put 3 cards under the deck for cosmic power and calling the judge again after allowing my son to draw the cards and mixing it up in his hand-insisting on broken game state again. Fortunately there was no GL this time but imagine the gamesmanship involved-and in a junior player. My son won that game after a lengthy break (with him in tears expecting a 2nd GL). He went on to lose the final game.

I did speak to the judges concerned but he said it was my biased view as a parent and that broken game state=GL.

So although Worlds was a blast, well organized, great games (most of it), generally sporting conduct, great friends and great location there were some issues with judging that marred the event.

 

[davidy321]

Rulings by different judges for similar situations can be quite different. In T8 (junior) my son was up 2-5 in prizes with his opponent's field consisting of basics and 1 claydol. Opponent advances a ralts & attaches a cess. My son announces cosmic power, was NOT stopped by his opponent, drew 2 cards, KO's the ralts. His opponent 'realises', calls over the judge + HJ and my son gets a game loss. Supposedly broken game state and my son had shuffled his hand and it would be unable to be certain of the said 2 cards drawn (although my son claims it was still at the corner of his hand). Why reward an opponent (in a losing state) with a win for a game state (cess) that he brought into play and did not help maintain.

In the 2nd game he 'tries' the same thing (son winning 3-5). Claiming my son put 3 cards under the deck for cosmic power and calling the judge again after allowing my son to draw the cards and mixing it up in his hand-insisting on broken game state again. Fortunately there was no GL this time but imagine the gamesmanship involved-and in a junior player. My son won that game after a lengthy break (with him in tears expecting a 2nd GL). He went on to lose the final game.

I did speak to the judges concerned but he said it was my biased view as a parent and that broken game state=GL.

So although Worlds was a blast, well organized, great games (most of it), generally sporting conduct, great friends and great location there were some issues with judging that marred the event.

This is quite sad. In my opinion, this should not be a game loss, especially if the opponent does not stop them. I think if it is obvious he is winning the game, it should not count as a game loss even more.
Also juniors should be given the benefit of the doubt more.

Overall ruling should be consistant throughout age groups though

 

[LovingTheAlien]

So, you are getting second hand info on the ruling above?? What do you think the cess crystal player's responsibility should be?? Should they 'allow' a move to occur, leading to a broken gamestate and THEN call a judge over OR should they point to the cess and put their hand out to slow the other player down?? Yes, both players are responible for playing field gamestates! (btw....a simple hand out when the player pointed to the Claydol's power would have sufficed. The american player DID point to the cosmic power, both players agreed to that!)

As one of the judges involved in this situation (yes, the foreign player COULD speak english bc he told ME the player used cosmic power w. cess crystal out on active poke....yes, he said ALL that before asking for translator), the HJ was called for very quickly bc the decision could be as low as warnings for each up to PP or even GL. After asking several Qs with the interpreter there, a proper ruling was made.

The only way the brazilian player was going to win that match was via a GL to his oppo. The brazilian player was given the benefit of the doubt on a "dubious game action" and wasnt given a GL for the move. If you dont believe me, know this, a MA player at US Nats this year was given a GL for exactly the same play.....allowing the gamestate to become broken for not stopping his oppo from claydol'ing with a cess active.

Keith

I KNOW he was losing, he admitted that. His English is limited to pokemon terms and interjections(um, er, eh, oh, wow), by the way, so it's hardly fair, and incorrect, to say he "speaks english."

As far as I know, he did acknowledge the misplay. He told me that. I can not say for certain if that's the truth, but then only he and his opponent knew what actually happened. If both players were responsible, then I'd say it was still a pretty uneven spreading of the responsibility. This makes it out to be that "allowing" the game state to become broken is much worse than actually breaking the game state yourself. If he wouldn't have tried to use a power while cess. was active, the situation would have never occurred. I played against the same brazillian player several times, and didn't forget to mind the Cess with my claydols or Ho-Ohs. I simply disagree with this whole rule, perhaps not this particular ruling.

 

[Jaeger]

This was always a very difficult ruling for judges I'm sure because if it was not your opponents responsiblitys to help protect the game state than nothing would stop your opponent from just keeping his mouth shout and than calling foul when the damage is done.

 

[Diaz]

From what I know of the situation, as a spectator watching that match in particular, it seemed like the Brazillian player was looking to try to get his opponent to misplay. The cessation was not clearly visible, and the player waited until exactly after his opponent had draw the cards to quickly raise his hand. He was trying to draw the error, and then looked for a game loss penalty for his opponent.

 

[Lawman]

I KNOW he was losing, he admitted that. His English is limited to pokemon terms and interjections(um, er, eh, oh, wow), by the way, so it's hardly fair, and incorrect, to say he "speaks english."
As far as I know, he did acknowledge the misplay. He told me that. I can not say for certain if that's the truth, but then only he and his opponent knew what actually happened. If both players were responsible, then I'd say it was still a pretty uneven spreading of the responsibility. This makes it out to be that "allowing" the game state to become broken is much worse than actually breaking the game state yourself. If he wouldn't have tried to use a power while cess. was active, the situation would have never occurred. I played against the same brazillian player several times, and didn't forget to mind the Cess with my claydols or Ho-Ohs. I simply disagree with this whole rule, perhaps not this particular ruling.

OK, last post on this issue: The Brazillian player told me "Cess crystal" on "active poke" (was not sticking out well either!), "cosmic power used, 2 cards under, X cards drawn" and said "opponent pointed to claydol 1st". Then, when I asked more Q's, he asks for and did get the translator very quickly. The HJ was also summoned very quickly. Both players were issued WARNINGS for the sloppy play. All possible penalties were discussed, from W to PP to GL. It was decided by all that Ws to each was appropriate, given the circumstances and the answers given (primarily by the brazillian player via the translator). We knew enough to make a proper ruling and I stand by our teams ruling!

It is different IMO when a gamestate gets to a "broken" state via a cosmic power used w/o the oppo having a chance to stop the oppo and the one where the player does a quick stuff 2 cards under and draws without pointing to the Claydol. Too many times, players get sloppy with their play. The correct way is to point/announce the power. THEN, place the card or cards under claydol, then announce the # of cards remaining in hand to determine if/how many cards get to be drawn (if any!). When I play at league, this is exactly how I do it and teach my players the same way. Practice makes (nearly) perfect! Practice sloppy/too fast....errors occur at events IMO! Likewise, there isnt a single attack ever printed that is called "knock out your pokemon". Yet, how many times do you hear that in matches w/o the player announcing which attack they used!

As for the T8 JR match, the stakes are even higher in top cuts and penalties can be handled differently than in swiss. I wasn't in that age division, but I know all the judges there are top notch and I support all their rulings.

Keith

PS Thx Prof Magma for backing up what occured in the MAs match.

 

[LovingTheAlien]

OK, last post on this issue: The Brazillian player told me "Cess crystal" on "active poke" (was not sticking out well either!), "cosmic power used, 2 cards under, X cards drawn" and said "opponent pointed to claydol 1st". Then, when I asked more Q's, he asks for and did get the translator very quickly. The HJ was also summoned very quickly. Both players were issued WARNINGS for the sloppy play. All possible penalties were discussed, from W to PP to GL. It was decided by all that Ws to each was appropriate, given the circumstances and the answers given (primarily by the brazillian player via the translator). We knew enough to make a proper ruling and I stand by our teams ruling!

It is different IMO when a gamestate gets to a "broken" state via a cosmic power used w/o the oppo having a chance to stop the oppo and the one where the player does a quick stuff 2 cards under and draws without pointing to the Claydol. Too many times, players get sloppy with their play. The correct way is to point/announce the power. THEN, place the card or cards under claydol, then announce the # of cards remaining in hand to determine if/how many cards get to be drawn (if any!). When I play at league, this is exactly how I do it and teach my players the same way. Practice makes (nearly) perfect! Practice sloppy/too fast....errors occur at events IMO! Likewise, there isnt a single attack ever printed that is called "knock out your pokemon". Yet, how many times do you hear that in matches w/o the player announcing which attack they used!

As for the T8 JR match, the stakes are even higher in top cuts and penalties can be handled differently than in swiss. I wasn't in that age division, but I know all the judges there are top notch and I support all their rulings.

Keith

PS Thx Prof Magma for backing up what occured in the MAs match.

I understand the difference, I suppose. Other than this specific incident, which I did not witness, but was recounted to me by Leo, I didn't have or hear of a single other problem with the staff. It was one of the best weekends I have ever experienced, and I would like to thank all of the staff (and often did while I was there) for their great work. So thank you.

 

[The_Lurb]

I actually had great judge experiences at worlds. When the judges asked me to stay out of an area they did it professionally and I turned around.

I actually ended up having a Claydol situation as well. I drew my card for the turn putting me at six cards in my hand and I played a roseanne's. I played both cards I got with the Roseanne's putting me at five cards. I then did Cosmic Power, put two cards under and draw three cards. I then did like Rare Candy to Gallade putting me at four cards. The next thing I know my opponent's hand shoots up and I ask him what I did and he wouldn't reply. When the judge comes over he says I drew the wrong number of cards wiht Claydol's power, saying some junk that didn't make any sense. I explained my side of the story and the judge gave my opponent a look like "wow... that's low". He asked us if we were set and my opponent unhappily grumbled sure.

 

[ChaosJim]

On the topic of what some people have dubbed, "Angleshooting"

From the perspective of a cold hard strategist, its incredible.

From the spirit of the game perspective, its awful.

From the point of view that we should be respectful to the judges, its totally unfair. You're asking them to make calls that they really shouldn't ever need to. I've experienced both excellent and sub-par judging. No matter what, you want to treat your judges with respect in hopes to receive the correct treatment next time.

 

[malikhisyam]

I just want to get this clear, after reading through this thread and noticing my situation mentioned.

A friend of mine was not allowed to Telepass in a t16 match. Thats just disgusting IMO.

Telepass: The most probable error is to miss a cessation or other effect blocking telepass. I can't see any reason why a judge would prevent the use of Telepass when the game state allowed it. Puse the game to establish what is going on sure. But disallowing telepass without reason, I don't think that is very likely.

There was no cessation in play, I am certain and I was not under any power lock. I announced Telepass, and my opponent stops me. He claims I have Telepassed that turn. I ask him what card I Telepassed, what I Telepassed for, but he answers with "No, no, I could've sworn you Telepassed." Nobody mentioned a Cess in play(I didn't see one either) or the fact that I was under a power lock. (He was using Empoleon)

A judge then comes over and claims that I did use Telepass, without any proof or stating what I used it for.