Worlds Judging... questionable conduct?

[Throne0fLegends]

My experience in swiss and in the top cut with judging was very good, except for two incidents that I believe would have changed the outcome of two very important matches drastically. In the swiss round I was down 2-1 in prizes with an opponent and it was his turn. Time was running low and he was making his move. Out of no where, the judge tells him to quicken his pace and to make move and assigns him a verbal warning for stalling. He was as surprised as I was since I felt he was going as quickly as he could and although under pressure, he was making his moves very quick and precise. Granted there were times he was thinking, but under those circumstances I don't know who wouldn't be thinking a little. In any case, it seemed the judge was more pushy on stalling than I, the competitor was. In any case, I kept silent, but there was some deserved protest from my opponent that he was going as fast as he could. In the end, there was more time spent talking about how slow or fast my opponent was going than if the judge would have just left him alone and make his move. Right when his turn was over, (he announced his attack).. he was calculating damage on my pokemon. Out of courtesy and out of my own concern I made sure it was done correctly. Just then time was called and I figured I would get my turn but the judge stopped me and told me the game was over... I, of course, was furious with the call and protested that his turn had ended way before time had been called and it was already my turn. He told me that since I didn't draw my card, it wasn't technically my turn so the game was over.

I mean come on, maybe I'm not familiar with that ruling, but I was giving my opponent the respect to finish his attack, adjust the damage accordingly and be ready as I drew my card. Regardless, I called the head judge over and he heard both sides of the story and let us finish off the game.

In Top 16 masters, there was a problem with the overhead clock and the time that the judges had. They didn't match. I asked how much the time was off from each one and the judge told me it wasn't very far off and I could rely on the one on the big screen as a good estimate. The problem came when a ruling needed to be addressed and after the 2 min or so for explanation a time extension was called for... but wasn't granted. I don't know what the reason was, but it lost me valuable time. THEN when there was 16 minutes left showing on the big screen, I hear the judges call for the 10 minute warning. I was shocked and started to panic as I didn't see that coming at all. At the end, time was again called right when my opponent announced his attack -- actually two judges called time.. one before and one after the attack. They told me the game was over since that attack KOed my pokemon, but I argued that the call was after the attack. The same explanation of how I didn't draw my card came into play and finally the judges froze the game to discuss whether or not I get my turn. In the end, they ruled that I don't get my turn and the game was over. What I dont understand was... who was monitoring the time.. why did two judges call time at different times?

I wouldn't be so disappointed if it wasn't Game 3 of Top 16 Worlds Master Division tied 2-2 prizes and losing on such a call.

 

[PokeDad]

I have read this entire thread and felt it necessary to add a note of support and thanks for the excellent work of all of this years' judges, staff, volunteers, and interpreters.

I think the Grinder and Worlds tourneys were the best run ever. While there is always going to be room for improvement, and absolute perfection is an unattainable ideal (judges wouldn't even be needed if players had legal decks and legal/legible lists, and played error free, and ended all games and matches in time), I think this year ran as smoothly as it did because of the unstinting professionalism and dedication of all of those who gave of themselves for the players.

Seriously, 40 minute rounds and 20 minute turnarounds for next match was awesome. Further kudos to POP/PUI for 40 minute rounds, as many games as possible should be outright won and not be decided on time.

Finally, thanks to POP/PUI for flooding the tourneys with green shirts and red shirts to support the judges and interpreters in making sure each player had an equal opportunity for fair, fun, and fast tourney play.

 

[Jason]

Was my playing speed reasonable?

Many thanks for the time you given up to ensure the communication issues going smoothly, Pokedad.

 

[PokeDad]

Was my playing speed reasonable?

Many thanks for the time you given up to ensure the communication issues going smoothly, Pokedad.

I will admit that I thought before I met you that some time extensions might be necessary and warranted, I was proven wrong. Jason played all 7 games under time to completion.

While professionally maintaining an aura of impartiality, inside, on a personal level, I was pulling for you to win your 7th game and make Sunday's T-32 top cut.

My day spent with you was my best in World's volunteering, and I would gladly work with you again next year if you would have me back.

My only regret is that I left my deck back at the hotel; I would love to have gotten in a game with you. You are a good player and a class act.

 

[Jason]

Well, Pokedad - two of my games were like ended on 39th or 40th minute... lol.

And yeah, I should've T32'd... misplay ftl *glares at windstorm* ...dotdotdot..

 

[Lawman]

My experience in swiss and in the top cut with judging was very good, except for two incidents that I believe would have changed the outcome of two very important matches drastically. In the swiss round I was down 2-1 in prizes with an opponent and it was his turn. Time was running low and he was making his move. Out of no where, the judge tells him to quicken his pace and to make move and assigns him a verbal warning for stalling. He was as surprised as I was since I felt he was going as quickly as he could and although under pressure, he was making his moves very quick and precise. Granted there were times he was thinking, but under those circumstances I don't know who wouldn't be thinking a little. In any case, it seemed the judge was more pushy on stalling than I, the competitor was. In any case, I kept silent, but there was some deserved protest from my opponent that he was going as fast as he could. In the end, there was more time spent talking about how slow or fast my opponent was going than if the judge would have just left him alone and make his move. Right when his turn was over, (he announced his attack).. he was calculating damage on my pokemon. Out of courtesy and out of my own concern I made sure it was done correctly. Just then time was called and I figured I would get my turn but the judge stopped me and told me the game was over... I, of course, was furious with the call and protested that his turn had ended way before time had been called and it was already my turn. He told me that since I didn't draw my card, it wasn't technically my turn so the game was over.

I mean come on, maybe I'm not familiar with that ruling, but I was giving my opponent the respect to finish his attack, adjust the damage accordingly and be ready as I drew my card. Regardless, I called the head judge over and he heard both sides of the story and let us finish off the game.

In Top 16 masters, there was a problem with the overhead clock and the time that the judges had. They didn't match. I asked how much the time was off from each one and the judge told me it wasn't very far off and I could rely on the one on the big screen as a good estimate. The problem came when a ruling needed to be addressed and after the 2 min or so for explanation a time extension was called for... but wasn't granted. I don't know what the reason was, but it lost me valuable time. THEN when there was 16 minutes left showing on the big screen, I hear the judges call for the 10 minute warning. I was shocked and started to panic as I didn't see that coming at all. At the end, time was again called right when my opponent announced his attack -- actually two judges called time.. one before and one after the attack. They told me the game was over since that attack KOed my pokemon, but I argued that the call was after the attack. The same explanation of how I didn't draw my card came into play and finally the judges froze the game to discuss whether or not I get my turn. In the end, they ruled that I don't get my turn and the game was over. What I dont understand was... who was monitoring the time.. why did two judges call time at different times?

I wouldn't be so disappointed if it wasn't Game 3 of Top 16 Worlds Master Division tied 2-2 prizes and losing on such a call.

Both calls ended up being correct. In the swiss rd, the HJ was correct to give an extention and finish the game that way.

On T16 match.....the HJ was handling the time. He called it 1st. Then, the 2nd judge leaned in to make sure the players heard it, since the attack was starting. The rule is on the books, no draw of card, no extra turn. A turn starts when a card is drawn. When time is called, the turn that has already BEGUN gets to finish.

You had a great weekend making T16. Congrats and strive to do achieve even more next year!

Keith

 

[Rainbowgym]

I was very confused about a ruling made at one of my games.

I play a Warp Point (Put it on the table and say I play Warp Point) While I am waiting for my opponent to switch Pokemon a judge interferes and says, your warp point should be in your discard pile.
I disagreed and told him, it would go to the discard as soon as we both had switched our Pokemon.

As far as I know the rulebook says loud and clear,
When you play a trainercard, do what is says, then put it in the discard pile.

In my opinion this means, both players switch their pokemon (warp point) and then the warp point goes to the discard pile.
Not putting your Warp Point on your discard before you even switched.


Actually the same happens with many other trainercards, so many people dump their Rare Candy in the discard before actually evolving. Many people dump their Night Maintenance in the discard before shuffling back up to 3 pokemon/energy.
If I really go by the rules the effect of a normal trainercard seems to me used at the moment it's in the discard.
And the ruling I got sounds to me that the "shortcut" of playing trainercards should be the standard, which I really doubt.

 

[totoro]

Lia, that judge was me. If I interfered with the game, I do apologize. I saw a trainer card in what I viewed an inappropriate space--a space reserved specifically for supporters. As I see the rules, a trainer is placed immediately in the discard pile, unlike a supporter, and its effect is resolved. There is no point when a trainer hits the playfied, although many do place, resolve, then discard. My intent was simply to maintain a clean game state.

 

[yoshi1001]

Lia, that judge was me. If I interfered with the game, I do apologize. I saw a trainer card in what I viewed an inappropriate space--a space reserved specifically for supporters. As I see the rules, a trainer is placed immediately in the discard pile, unlike a supporter, and its effect is resolved. There is no point when a trainer hits the playfied, although many do place, resolve, then discard. My intent was simply to maintain a clean game state.

Really? I was under the impression that all trainer cards, however briefly, spend some time in play. I generally always do this with any card I play that requires action on the part of my opponent.

 

[bugsbite]

What is the exact wording of the official rule.

From the rulebook:

Trainer cards
Trainer cards are played by doing what they say and then putting them in your discard pile.

So now the question is "what is the the official meaning of played?
a) Reading them out loud.
b)playing somewhere in the playing field.
c) doing what they say.
d) a and b
e) a and c
f) all of the above
g) none of the above

 

[PokePop]

Lia, that judge was me. If I interfered with the game, I do apologize. I saw a trainer card in what I viewed an inappropriate space--a space reserved specifically for supporters. As I see the rules, a trainer is placed immediately in the discard pile, unlike a supporter, and its effect is resolved. There is no point when a trainer hits the playfied, although many do place, resolve, then discard. My intent was simply to maintain a clean game state.

'fraid that Lia is correct.
We're just so used to sloppy play in the US that sometimes it seems the "norm".
That's why we get rulings questions on "as often as you like powers" where people use them multiple times all at once and don't think they should get hit with multiple penalties from things like Aerodactyl's Power.

 

[totoro]

So, a trainer like candy or warp point should be placed beside the active pokemon before it is discarded? Lia, I definitely apologize and I have learned something new!!

 

[Rainbowgym]

Lia, that judge was me. If I interfered with the game, I do apologize. I saw a trainer card in what I viewed an inappropriate space--a space reserved specifically for supporters. As I see the rules, a trainer is placed immediately in the discard pile, unlike a supporter, and its effect is resolved. There is no point when a trainer hits the playfied, although many do place, resolve, then discard. My intent was simply to maintain a clean game state.

Actually you did only interfered at the wrong time. Such issues (if any) can in my opinion wait untill the action of the specific card are done, it would at least avoid a break of concentration.
At my age concentration is much less as it used to be and any distraction ruins a game for me.
I know it's my problem, but that's why I always try to keep the game state as clear as I can.

And trainers should hit the table before discarded, otherwise the rulebook make no sense.
How to play a supporter as a trainercard? It hits the table and stays the rest of the turn, while a normal trainer hits the table and will be discarded after the "effects" are resolved.
A trainer in your hand is not considered in play or allowed to use, a trainer in the discard is supposed to be used.

So, a trainer like candy or warp point should be placed beside the active pokemon before it is discarded? Lia, I definitely apologize and I have learned something new!!

Well I don't know if it should be beside the active, but that's how I do it. One side of the active is for a Supporter, the other side I use for trainers who leave the game after being used.
Or even a supporter next to the active and the normal trainer next to the supporter, depends sometimes if people are left or right handed.

And I still do learn things, even after years of playing and judging.

What is the exact wording of the official rule.

From the rulebook:

Trainer cards
Trainer cards are played by doing what they say and then putting them in your discard pile.

So now the question is "what is the the official meaning of played?
a) Reading them out loud.
b)playing somewhere in the playing field.
c) doing what they say.
d) a and b
e) a and c
f) all of the above
g) none of the above

Well looks to me it's difficult to use the effect while keeping it in your hand, so putting it somewhere in the playing field sounds to me the best option.
Try to resolve a Night Maintenance while keeping it in your hand. :lol: your "hand" in one hand, NM in the other LOL.
Also normally a card who didn't leave your hand is not played, that's why many players keep on touching a card and even put it back in their hand (and I have seen this even going on to a disturbing level which could be seen as stalling)
Reading them out loud is a courtage to your opponent.
And doing what they say isn't optional, you have to.

A better wording would be: after you used the effect of a trainercard, then it goes to the discardpile.

 

[SteveP]

Yeah, effects resolve, then discard. It helps maintain game state. For example, Item Finder can't retrieve itself because it doesn't go into the discard pile until AFTER you resolve it's effect to discard 2 cards, then grab a trainer.

But, this is really a "no-harm, no-foul" mistake by the judge. It was just a vigilant effort by the judge to patrol sloppy play. Maybe the judge had already witnessed a few players forgetting to discard trainers/supporters in a timely manner, so they made this call. If "active" judging was being done, you have to expect judges to interfer on occasion.

 

[Spirit Of Mew]

It was my friend who this happened to and it really disturbed me. Most of the judges were very kind to every one, but there were some who didn't seem to want to be there.

I was in the parents area near masters talking to a parent of a league member. A judge came over and asked if I was in masters. When I told him I was not he told me I was to go to the seniors area and not to go to other age groups.

 

[EeveeLover]

It was my friend who this happened to and it really disturbed me. Most of the judges were very kind to every one, but there were some who didn't seem to want to be there.

I was in the parents area near masters talking to a parent of a league member. A judge came over and asked if I was in masters. When I told him I was not he told me I was to go to the seniors area and not to go to other age groups.

Again, this is a question of a Judge or a Red Shirt. That was the area that I was working. I was a Red Shirt. I did ask some people to leave the area, but never because they were in a younger age group and did not belong. I asked people to leave after several warnings to stay out of the restricted area that was unfortunately too close to the parents area in my opinion. I did have some younger players that tried several times to cut back and forth, which was a no no, but I also had players that their parents were sitting in the parents area that we let go from the area between Juniors and Masters through the no go zone, just to let them get to their parents, instead of going all the way around. This was decided based on the age of the Juniors, I am not going to make a 7 or 8 year old fight through the masters mess just to get out of the hall and fight their way back through again.

 

[Spirit Of Mew]

It was not a judge in a red shirt. I walked all the way around the outside of the masters area and was at the back of the parents area.

 

[yoyofsho16]

Yeah, I lay the trainer card on the field, anywhere, not in the supporter area, and then discard it immediately. I thought that as long as you discard it when the effect is resolved, that is fine.

 

[EeveeLover]

It was not a judge in a red shirt. I walked all the way around the outside of the masters area and was at the back of the parents area.

I understand it was not a Judge in a Red Shirt. Judges wore Lab Coats, Staff wore Red Shirts. I am wondering if the person you had the problem with was in a Lab Coat or a Red Shirt.

As many other Judges / Staff / Volunteers have already posted, we are not perfect. We learn new things all the time, that is why I am wondering, to see what I can apply to future events to make things easier for the Staff, the Players, and the spectators.

 

[bulbasnore]

Don't let yourself get so far past the time in which the issue you experienced happened, that you can do nothing but get more negative about it. Take care of it immediately, and even if you don't get the answer you're hoping for at the time, you'll feel better that you spoke with someone about it, and at least got thier point of view on the matter.

To big to sig, but I'm gonna write this somewhere. Please speak up. I do not say this to silence anyone here. Just pointing out whether its calling the HJ or talking to PUI... its worth it!!

The days of watching matches up-close-and-personal are gone.

Yes.

But, I've suggested that where possible more floor $pace and chair$ or bleacher$ be found for spectators and that an announcement from the stage (in multiple languages) be used to set behavior boundaries for spectators. For the comfort of all, as Emily Post used to say.

I am sure that many folks found me to be a jerk in what I was doing.

I don't know, but the judges in Juniors were universally grateful I think for having you handle the walkway rail and clearing it of all but press in T8/T4. I didn't see you doing anything unprofessional.

Thank you for letting myself and others know how valued our input is and what to do should we have an experience like that again.

What he said. Someone believes it and I hope more people will in future.

People on the rail can always intentionally or UNINTENTIONALLY give a "Tell" to a player or their opponent.

I'm shocked, shocked to hear of this... :thumb: Talking so it can be heard in the play area, leaning into the play area, gesturing continuously where players can see it... those things might interfere with a match... Unintentionally?

Yah.

Please sit down or stand quietly. Thanks for understanding. Also, please don't lean over the rail, keep positioning yourself to see someone's cards and start taking notes.

Cheering in T4 & when the cams go up? To be expected, welcomed. Having Pete eject you for booing a competitor, priceless.

If you accept decklists without doing a formal deck check, then you proceed to check all of the lists after the players have starting playing, bad things can happen.

Like delaying 2 matches round 2, 8 matches round 3 and two matches round 4 in LCQ? I had to give 3 "illegal deck/illegal list" game losses. Not fun. 3 lists got thrown back to the checkers for misreading or misadding. The rest were "can't win on time" since the players were not ready for the match. Mind you, I was the Junior's judge and this may be too lenient for the older groups.

Do I like decklist checks? No. Keep getting interrupted and having to re-add the figures. Faster for me to do a real deck check and count 60 while checking sleeves then physically match the deck to the list.

Should we do a decklist check? Maybe. I would have preferred it to rounds 2,3,4 of the grinder particularly.

Consider this, when I deck check if your cards are more than trivially out of order, you go to the back of the line & I teach my staff to do the same. 2 of those puts the other 125 decks in order, and you don't have to embarass the player either, people just get the point.

So, how 'bout this... we just tell people in advance, "hey, were going to check lists after round begins, so make yours legal and legible". Once the word gets around, parents & players will take care. Not sure that's preferred, but I think it could be effective and efficient for tournament time.

Players should keep an extra copy of their decklist at a tourney as big as nats or worlds with them. They NEED to be checking thier sleeves in between rounds as well as double counting their deck to ensure that they have 60 cards.

Tom is telling it like it is, but I wanted to highlight those practical tips. Let me add, download and read the penalty guidelines.

Ok guys, i didnt mean to cause this kind of fuss.

Dude, you are not causing a fuss. Thanks for posting.

I'm one of those players who won't let my opponent shuffle my deck at the start of the game.

Unless I see you do it, I pile shuffle every opponents deck from my son's to someone I don't know from Adam.

You want to take it as an insult, I just want to make sure that when you pull off that "Eevee, Grass, Rare Candy, Leafeon, Bind Down" vs. my lone Baltoy that I can cheer you on.

The Senior's HJ listened, and agreed, and I believe held a quick meeting with the rest of the senior's judges to correct the ruling.

Speaking up = good! Talking to someone AT THE TIME is good for getting something DONE! Bravo. Posting here later is only good for catharsis and lesson's learned (neither are bad things, but I'd rather have some ACTION at the time).

I would pile shuffle my momma's deck if she sat down across from me. :biggrin: I have judged at all the levels and have seen some slick things done. All players should take this position IMO.

:nonono::lol::nonono: Pile shuffle your opponents deck; not a rule, just my advice. You are well within your rights to ask to do so.

As a judge, if you refuse your opponent's shuffle and want me to do it, I will want to know why. Yes, I have intervened to shuffle a deck for a child who was killing his opponents cards, but I don't want to have the tourney delayed because someone doesn't know the rule or won't let his opponent touch his cards/feels insulted.

This goes double for the Juniors. Teach your young ones to do this (pile shuffle). I cannot tell you how many kids have had to be counseled at league & small events that STACKING YOUR DECK is not ok. Tell your kids and leagues to shuffle the opponents deck. Just my advice.

I'll take the blame for not calling over the head judge

Not piling on, but calling the HJ would have been AWESOME for you in this situation. Do it man!