I would MUCH rather play against an "autoloss" than be donked. Why? It's one of the reasons I play this game: it's a good mental challenge. If you're facing a deck you have a horrible matchup with, you have to plan ahead and play your cards right to turn the match into one that favors you. When you face a donk deck, you just sit there doing NOTHING while your opponent whips out a few cards and offers you the handshake. Where's the fun in that?
Donking, and why it is suddenly a big concern for the community
- Thread starter Ice'Cold
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Porii Sames
Active Member
I don't either.
I would rather get donked than play an autoloss. It just feels terrible when you're playing an autoloss; much worse than getting donked.
Plus, I pointed out that running a donk deck is a bold move in general. You have to not have stuff prized, not face bad matchups, go 2nd (generally), etc.
---------- Post added 12/21/2010 at 09:01 PM ----------
Well, I guess you could look at it that way.
But it just seems terrible playing Beedrill/Shuppet/Uxie/Sparce donk against Vilegar personally.
Kayle
Active Member
You're making the wrong argument. Nothing says donk decks are not legitimate deck choices and nothing says that donks aren't legitimate wins.
It's just no fun at all. Why play the game if it's not any fun? Even discounting the fact that you also have to spend a massive amount of time and money on it to even have a shot.
Edit: Playing the donk deck is LOADS of fun. And sometimes watching it go, even if you're on the losing end, is loads of fun.
Having your perfectly legitimate 6-2 record with resistance go to 6-3 in the last round at Nationals while you sit back unable to do ANYTHING is not fun.
jeffrey123
New Member
The donk deck chooses to play a donk deck.
SP chooses SP, but they dont choose to have their general strategy as "donk opponent t1"
Donk decks live by the sword, and die by it. They are also retarded and ruin the game.
/thread
SP chooses SP, but they dont choose to have their general strategy as "donk opponent t1"
Donk decks live by the sword, and die by it. They are also retarded and ruin the game.
/thread
As long as there are Pokemon with 50 HP or less, there's going to be donks.
Basically, the only way that donks are going to be removed from the game is if the winning condition of 'Your opponent has no more Pokemon to battle with' is nulled. There are decks made to donk just as there are decks to force your opponent to draw out his deck. For the most part, Pokemon players want a fast, assured victory; that's why people played haymaker before modified, beatdown during modified and SP today. All these decks were the most popular because they hit hard, attacked cheap, and blocked the opponent's Powers, Bodies and Trainers.
Donks are just the luck factor of Pokemon coming into play. There will always, always be a luck factor in every game of Pokemon, whether or not your opponent top-decked the one card he needs or whether three of his four Magikarps are prized. Donks are just a part of the game, and the only way to make sure they don't happen to you is to continually test your deck and make it as consistent as possible. Complaining about it ain't doin' nothin.
You might as well complain about SP decks! :thumb:
Basically, the only way that donks are going to be removed from the game is if the winning condition of 'Your opponent has no more Pokemon to battle with' is nulled. There are decks made to donk just as there are decks to force your opponent to draw out his deck. For the most part, Pokemon players want a fast, assured victory; that's why people played haymaker before modified, beatdown during modified and SP today. All these decks were the most popular because they hit hard, attacked cheap, and blocked the opponent's Powers, Bodies and Trainers.
Donks are just the luck factor of Pokemon coming into play. There will always, always be a luck factor in every game of Pokemon, whether or not your opponent top-decked the one card he needs or whether three of his four Magikarps are prized. Donks are just a part of the game, and the only way to make sure they don't happen to you is to continually test your deck and make it as consistent as possible. Complaining about it ain't doin' nothin.
You might as well complain about SP decks! :thumb:
Porii Sames
Active Member
You build donk decks to live past the first turn.
Anyone who doesn't has had a labotomy and has no common sense whatsoever.
Donk decks are a double edged sword. On one hand they can grant relatively easy and sometimes fun wins. On the other hand, playing against stuff like Vilegar will make you want to tear your hair out.
There are ways to help stop the donk. A Donkdeck vs. Vilegar? A few Devoluters, but then, you're done.
Anyone who doesn't has had a labotomy and has no common sense whatsoever.
Donk decks are a double edged sword. On one hand they can grant relatively easy and sometimes fun wins. On the other hand, playing against stuff like Vilegar will make you want to tear your hair out.
There are ways to help stop the donk. A Donkdeck vs. Vilegar? A few Devoluters, but then, you're done.
Are donks really anything more than just luck?
What if everybody, literally EVERYBODY, in a tournament played donk decks. Would the most skilled player win? Would the best deck win?
The answer is no.
And that's why it's bad for the game.
There are always going to be donks. Remember Tyrogue? But when donks becomes the normal way that unskilled players compete with and beat skilled players on a regular basis, something is upside down.
What if everybody, literally EVERYBODY, in a tournament played donk decks. Would the most skilled player win? Would the best deck win?
The answer is no.
And that's why it's bad for the game.
There are always going to be donks. Remember Tyrogue? But when donks becomes the normal way that unskilled players compete with and beat skilled players on a regular basis, something is upside down.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Um, hello? How many donk decks do you see on average at a tourney?
In a 60 person tourney, I think I was the only one using one. And they require skill; maybe not necessarily by donking but what happens if you don't donk.
In a 60 person tourney, I think I was the only one using one. And they require skill; maybe not necessarily by donking but what happens if you don't donk.
One other thing worth noting is that I suspect (let me know if I'm right-this is more speculation based on observation than personal experience) that a donk game is pretty much the same regardless of which deck is being used to perform the donk. The Pokemon may differ somewhat and the methods may vary slightly, but in the end the goal is the same, which leads to a very one-dimensional (or perhaps zero-dimensional) experience.
Kayle
Active Member
I don't have a problem with LOLGARCHOMP donks, specifically 'cause I know you're exactly correct: you aren't going to be able to fix it.
There's a difference between Haymaker and Turbo Uxie. Haymaker allows you time to make tactical decisions and play out your game, even if you need to play something similarly fast to keep up. You're allowed time to earn your win (or loss).
Turbo Uxie does not. Either you lose to it, or you win to it, and your only control over that is your deck choice.
Firstly, anyone who thinks a donk deck has a life past turn four or five is kidding themselves - the whole point is TO DECK YOURSELF. All of your resources go into the Discard Pile by the end of the first or second turn and your entire strategy relies on getting every single piece of information and tactical capability onto the field on the first turn.
Secondly, even if they did have a midgame - I don't see what the point of that statement is. You still either win on the first turn (literally by benching them or figuratively by placing them into an unwinnable situation where you're taking prizes every turn against a worthless setup) or fail to 'donk' and lose.
You keep stating the same point and you aren't refuting mine. I don't want to play against a donk deck in a tournament, not because the matchup is hard but because it's NO FUN no matter what deck I play.
In six rounds, one person running a donk deck undefeated ruins six people's days.
Politoed666
New Member
oh u mad cuz u got da DONKED???
well be like me and run a TERRIBLE BUILD!!! i run 40 baisics and MAX CALL ENERGY!1!!! (and pokemon colletor) in my vilpume gengar deck and i rarely get donk..
Seriously, guys. Congratulations on avoiding donks. But, like, some of us want to build fun decks that are good, instead of simply focusing half our deck into making sure we don't get donked and then getting one in two cards as totally dead late in the game and losing because of it. Are donks a HUGE problem of epic proportions? No, they're not. But it's something that should be looked at, because it is a huge lucksack and no one likes losing because of a lucksack. Yes, a lucksack.
No one gets donked because they run one Unown Q and no other basics. No one gets donked because they want to get donked or because they run a hugely inconsistent build. People shouldn't have to invest a lot of resources, such as max Call, into a deck that wouldn't ordinarily run it, just to avoid donks. Pokémon needs to stop releasing so many fast attackers and take the game back to what it was a few years ago: an entertaining game centered around deliberated set up and strong combos.
So yeah. If you somehow haven't managed to get donked, go you! You're lucky. That doesn't mean it's not a problem for some of us.
well be like me and run a TERRIBLE BUILD!!! i run 40 baisics and MAX CALL ENERGY!1!!! (and pokemon colletor) in my vilpume gengar deck and i rarely get donk..
Seriously, guys. Congratulations on avoiding donks. But, like, some of us want to build fun decks that are good, instead of simply focusing half our deck into making sure we don't get donked and then getting one in two cards as totally dead late in the game and losing because of it. Are donks a HUGE problem of epic proportions? No, they're not. But it's something that should be looked at, because it is a huge lucksack and no one likes losing because of a lucksack. Yes, a lucksack.
No one gets donked because they run one Unown Q and no other basics. No one gets donked because they want to get donked or because they run a hugely inconsistent build. People shouldn't have to invest a lot of resources, such as max Call, into a deck that wouldn't ordinarily run it, just to avoid donks. Pokémon needs to stop releasing so many fast attackers and take the game back to what it was a few years ago: an entertaining game centered around deliberated set up and strong combos.
So yeah. If you somehow haven't managed to get donked, go you! You're lucky. That doesn't mean it's not a problem for some of us.
Porii Sames
Active Member
I have, by use of the Beedrill/Dunsparce/Uxie combo, been able to efficiently miss the donk yet overpower people later in the game. If I see that I probably can't donk, I don't go for it and KO their active. I do the same next turn. Dunsparce for consistency, Uxie for draw and hitting for weakness, and Beedrill for the extra 2 Plus Powers. Donk decks, should you build them right and play the properly, last well beyond the first few turns.
A haymaker would become a donk deck out of opportunity and necessity. Haymakers were built to win as fast as possible, thus the name. I can't say how many times I've seen a Haymaker burn through half its deck searching for everything it needs to secure the turn 1 or 2 victory. The only real differences between Haymakers and Donk-specific decks are that Donk-specific decks are less likely to hold out in an extended game. Before Modified, you either ran Haymaker or hoped you got your Blastoise out on turn 2.
Donks are really a small problem compared to what the game was before. SP is the dominant play style right now, but there's also Gyarados, Vileplume/Gengar, Machamp and several different flavors of rogue. Even SP decks come in a variety, with Blaziken and Infernape. Donking is just 'something that happens', and I think trying to fix it will be trying to fix something that's not really broken, a la No-Cost Attacks. But that's a different topic altogether.
Porii Sames
Active Member
^Personally, I don't think playing with or against Vilegar in general is fun. It's boring, repetitive, and doesn't feel fun. However, I don't openly whine about the deck like with the donk decks. I don't like getting donked, but I don't like losing either. Donk decks are nowhere near as huge as decks like Luxchomo, Machamo, Gyarados, Dchomo, and others.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
Although I generally don't care for donks, I don't care about their existence in principle: for a game meant to attract a diverse audience, some variance is good - the creators of Pokemon TCG don't want top players winning each and every game.
The only thing that frustrates me, Adam, are the 8-15 minute turns. There is a PROBLEM when one person is twiddling his or her thumbs for a third of the game, and is not my idea of a fun time.
(Fwiw, don't let people in your metagame hating you deter you from the use of Uxie; isntead, let its ineffectiveness in a given metagame deter you.)
The only thing that frustrates me, Adam, are the 8-15 minute turns. There is a PROBLEM when one person is twiddling his or her thumbs for a third of the game, and is not my idea of a fun time.
(Fwiw, don't let people in your metagame hating you deter you from the use of Uxie; isntead, let its ineffectiveness in a given metagame deter you.)
Honestly, I hate being donked, nothing upsets me more than that when I play(other than players who take forever on their turns or would drag out their turns before the new 3 turn rule was applied), but I don't mind donking others, especially when it's against a deck I'll have a terrible match-up against like Gyarados. So imo it's healthy, it's just irritating. People just need to accept that bad draws happen, and you can't always have all the luck :3
Another great point Jon, one of the things I forgot to mention in my original post was a particular game I played against Rob's Uxie deck a few weeks ago. On his first turn, he was able to use up more than 50% of the clock, this is on the first turn, at a decent to just slightly slow pace. Nothing against Rob, but is it right for a player to be able to do that? It isn't slow playing, it isn't stalling, so what can a judge do? I ended up losing that game by the way, I didn't get donked but by the time I got to play I ended up having a total of 4 turns over the course of the game, and not being able to overcome a prize defecit.
I don't understand this much at all. I'd much rather face an autoloss than get donked. The only time I ever want to get donked is when I'm sure to miss out on the top cut and I'm super hungry or something... even then I don't mind a good game against a fellow player.
Some of my best games EVER have been against autolosses. Just played in a CC the week before last where I got 2nd with Steelix with 7 out of my 8 matches having fire techs in them (for one match I knocked out a recycled Blaziken FB 3 times throughout the game.. and still won). When I hit the top cut at Nats this past season I faced tough matches all the way to the top. I was exhausted, but PROUD of my job well done.
No matter what, I would rather play an actual game than lose in a turn, no matter the severity of the autoloss. My only exception to this would be if I knew my opponent to be an absolute jerk or something.
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