Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

A response to those wanting details on decks played

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Psyco just keeps making good points.

A typical conversation with everyone who has *politely* asked me for a list has pretty much been them asking me, me telling them I can't give away my team's lists but I can help fix theirs a bit. They list me, I help with some minor fixes but not giving away too much as to make my team mad, they go and still win. Simple as that.
 
This topic has run it's course for me. There have been some great ideas expressed.

Bottom line for me:

- Share your decks and decklists as you see fit.
- If you do a tournament report on the PokeGym, following the report submission format, or don't bother reporting.
- Don't tell me I can't report the winning decks for tournaments I work at.

See ya all later.

Go ROCKIES!!!!
 
The College Republicans would get a kick out of you, Steve! :D

*IS a C-R*
 
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Yo, since when was this a political discussion? Just because someone said you didn't agree with you call them an idiot liberal and move on?
 
PSYCO829 said:
put the lists up for grabs for anyone to see, and originality will die on the spot
mark my words

Disagree strongly, no other CCG is worse off for having published lists, Pokemon would be no different.
 
Psyco just keeps making good points.

A typical conversation with everyone who has *politely* asked me for a list has pretty much been them asking me, me telling them I can't give away my team's lists but I can help fix theirs a bit. They list me, I help with some minor fixes but not giving away too much as to make my team mad, they go and still win. Simple as that.

I don't understand. They didn't have the "good" list. How did they win? (I'm trying to make a point here)

put the lists up for grabs for anyone to see, and originality will die on the spot
mark my words

Why? Give me one good reason why originality would die? People would copy the winning deck? Don't you understand, if everyone knew what the best deck in the format was, and the list that was winning, it would make it easier to tech for the deck. So would everyone play the best deck knowing that everyone has access to the best list too to play against and come up with the best counter to it? I think not. Players would have to debate playing the same deck and risking being metagame'd worse than ever before, or play another deck and maybe surprise the field that was teching for the previous deck. This cycle continues, and guess what? People start playing different decks more often, and guess what that leads to? A wider format with tournaments not being won by 3 decks.

Who doesn't want to see that?

Originality die? Heh, yeah right.
 
What's up guys!!

From a novice point of view...my first tournament was the pre-release of MT and I only played a couple times prior to that.

If it wasn't for decks posted and quality help for experienced players like King Gengar and Prime I would not like the game that much, these lists helped me and my daughter get the feel of the game and the mechanics behind it. First off I used lists with slight modifications due to not having the cards, now after playing more we are trying different things, sometimes they work sometimes they don't, it is fun and challenging and that is the "magic" of the game, it seems like some of you have lost that, what a shame.
 
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What's up guys!!

From a novice point of view...my first tournament was the pre-release of MT and I only played a couple times prior to that.

If it wasn't for decks posted and quality help for experienced players like King Gengar and Prime I would not like the game that much, these lists helped me and my daughter get the feel of the game and the mechanics behind it. First off I used lists with slight modifications due to not having the cards, now after playing more we are trying different things, sometimes they work sometimes they don't, it is fun and challenging and that is the "magic" of the game, it seems like some of you have lost that, what a shame.

Jan: thanks for the props. I enjoy helping, and it gives me some measure of pride to know that you became a better player by something I said or did.

On that note, I would like to thank Randy Miller for helping me understand the strategy of deck-building when no one else seemed to care; Jeff Reynolds for helping me understand competitiveness at its best; Lawman (Keith) for helping me to get over nerves at tournaments; John Silvestro and Mike Reynolds for helping me to play faster and still play well; Erik and Kevin Nance for showing me that SOTG makes Pokemon the fun game it really is; Matt Riddle for helping me to get to the brass roots of simplicity in deck-making... and the list goes on.

So, let the secret societies have their way and day. They may have the Victory Medals, but all of these other people get the Medal of Honor :thumb:
 
bugsbite/kinggengar, I help because I want to. I sometimes have people PM me on this forum and ask me what they should do with their deck, or how they should modify their deck article. I never shoot someone down, and I enjoy giving them advice and pushing them in the direction of greatness. I'd rather have better games at tournaments and end up with a 3-3 record than have games that go two turns and go undefeated. I mean, I'd have a trophy or something, but would there be that much bragging rights, and what kind of memory would that leave?

And like kinggengar did, I have many people to thank for my ability in this game. All the players I've ever faced and had a good game I thank, and people like my friend David and kinggengar for taking me to tournaments so I could play those good players. People like Jeff R. and Keith H. and Bernie, and all the other TO/PTOs for running the tournaments so I could play those good players and have a good time.

When people lose sight on the overall picture, they lose sight of what makes this game so great. People getting together, playing, and learning about the game they love.
 
Yo, since when was this a political discussion? Just because someone said you didn't agree with you call them an idiot liberal and move on?
I didn't say "idiot liberal." That would be redundant. :lol:

I welcome disagreement and argument, but debate what I "said," not some misinterpretation.
 
Disagree strongly, no other CCG is worse off for having published lists, Pokemon would be no different.

because they always started off having them
and btw, yu-gi-oh went to **** in a basket when they started posting lists (they did this during the days of goat control) because everyone started using the same deck
i am not kidding when i say top 8 of some regionals all had the same deck that differed from one another by maybe 4 cards
as one of the players who invented goat control, i can honestly say i do not want this to happen to pokemon

I don\\\'t understand. They didn\\\'t have the \\\"good\\\" list. How did they win? (I\\\'m trying to make a point here)

they had their lists worked on by good players
thus their list became more improved, and the improvements proved enough to win the tournoment

Why? Give me one good reason why originality would die? People would copy the winning deck? Don\\\'t you understand, if everyone knew what the best deck in the format was, and the list that was winning, it would make it easier to tech for the deck. So would everyone play the best deck knowing that everyone has access to the best list too to play against and come up with the best counter to it? I think not. Players would have to debate playing the same deck and risking being metagame\\\'d worse than ever before, or play another deck and maybe surprise the field that was teching for the previous deck. This cycle continues, and guess what? People start playing different decks more often, and guess what that leads to? A wider format with tournaments not being won by 3 decks.

Who doesn\\\'t want to see that?

Originality die? Heh, yeah right.

if everyone copied the same deck, then the elite players would have a counter for that and would ONCE AGAIN be sweeping major events with little problem
the difference would be it would be the lesser experienced players playing the archetypes, which would take a great deal of fear out of elite players

as a relatively good player i can honestly tell you this, the one thing that worries me more than anything else is that i will go to a big tournoment and lose alot of my point playing against some random with a random crappy deck that miraculously counters my deck

talking with some of the more experienced players, ive found alot of them share that same fear
give everyone the same archetype list... well, that kind of gives people capable of building great decks a clear shot, doesnt it?

tournoments arent just won by 2-3 decks
ever
seriously, take a look at nats the past few years
top cut of nats two years ago was two delta decks (one of the few non archetypes to win us nats) rocklock (supposedly dead due to flaridos) and to be honest, i cant remember the third deck
but rocklock then?
and scizorgross this year?
who say these decks coming?

they were made by experienced players who tested the matchups, made the decks, and most likely found ways around these bad matchups (heal energy and spn tail tar in rocklock, mew * in scizorgross)
if these people did it, why are lesser players unable to make their own decks, or make their own list out of what is known about an archetype? what is stopping them?
I didn\\\'t say \\\"idiot liberal.\\\" That would be redundant. :lol:

I welcome disagreement and argument, but debate what I \\\"said,\\\" not some misinterpretation.

grow up and stop flinging insults
honestly, stick to the bloody topic without flinging insults, ur posts are irrelevant enough without adding unnessesary comments =/
 
and btw, yu-gi-oh went to **** in a basket when they started posting lists (they did this during the days of goat control) because everyone started using the same deck
i am not kidding when i say top 8 of some regionals all had the same deck that differed from one another by maybe 4 cards
as one of the players who invented goat control, i can honestly say i do not want this to happen to pokemon

Yugioh had carbon-copied decks long before the goat control season - long before Chaos reigned supreme over the game, even. Why are you even bothering with this tack? I played against many Yugioh Regionals players for a long time despite never actually attending one, and can speak from experience - the game was dominated by, on average, one deck at a time starting from around PSV when (most notably) Premature, Call, Jinzo, and Imperial Order pushed beatdown over all other archetypes until Chaos locked the game down.

Yugioh is a badly, BADLY flawed comparison for any CCG. Especially Pokemon - since in Pokemon, the variable energy costs and effects of attacks (synergy) prevent you from just throwing together a bunch of good cards and calling it a deck (yugioh syndrome - no costs, no restrictions!). The trainer engine that works best for, say, Moving TRUK would probably be severely sub optimal for, let's say, a Quickitune deck or InfernCatty... and even then, depending on the metagame... some cards would further be adjusted - for example, in a largely cessation crystal free metagame, InfernCatty would probably drop Windstorms for more dig or maybe a tech line. On top of that you probably wouldn't be able to use quite the same ratios for the lines, as well as possibly including a setup basic which would add further adjustment to the trainer line to accommodate it.

In Yugioh? "Oh look, this is a good card and will probably result in me gaining advantage more often than not..." means it's now taking the place of a less advantageous card in 90+% of tournament decks.

The only time card games fall prey to the "predictable deck syndrome" is when the CCG itself allows it or the CCG itself contains flawed, overpowered cards that become usable that way - Pokemon itself fell prey to that last season and the season before last with the Holon Transceiver engine showing up in damn near every deck anyone played, ever - there was simply no reason for nearly any deck to play any other trainer engine.


Or do you think the only reason Transceiver engines became so prevalent was because Worlds 05's deck lists were posted and used it...?


Also,

if these people did it, why are lesser players unable to make their own decks, or make their own list out of what is known about an archetype? what is stopping them?

They do make their own decks, but even with help and fixes from local players, sometimes the combo isn't quite up to snuff or, like I experienced last season myself, the combo is just too fragile and slow to be reliable against the tournament metagame. Not everyone can even attend tournaments on a regular basis, and if your local playgroup only consists of a handful of players or mostly lower caliber players, you aren't going to have much success playtesting. Your deck might dominate locally (as mine did), but then you go to a tournament and go 1-4 (as mine did).

And if you call that sour grapes, you'll just be evading the topic... you've seen me play personally and you know I'm not a bad player. Not the greatest around but... well, that's simply not important here.
 
Yugioh had carbon-copied decks long before the goat control season - long before Chaos reigned supreme over the game, even. Why are you even bothering with this tack? I played against many Yugioh Regionals players for a long time despite never actually attending one, and can speak from experience - the game was dominated by, on average, one deck at a time starting from around PSV when (most notably) Premature, Call, Jinzo, and Imperial Order pushed beatdown over all other archetypes until Chaos locked the game down.

the game is still like that
the point is that you said any card game
here is one where metagaming and decks bieng available ruined an already failing game

if you want another example, take a look at magic: the gathering
last season, EVERY deck ran gelectrode in it
the card was bloody broken, and there wasnt a real vialbe deck that could beat it while still working against any other deck it came acrossed

this started when a few decklists were put on wizards of the coasts website
before that, anything went

Yugioh is a badly, BADLY flawed comparison for any CCG. Especially Pokemon - since in Pokemon, the variable energy costs and effects of attacks (synergy) prevent you from just throwing together a bunch of good cards and calling it a deck (yugioh syndrome - no costs, no restrictions!). The trainer engine that works best for, say, Moving TRUK would probably be severely sub optimal for, let\\\'s say, a Quickitune deck or InfernCatty... and even then, depending on the metagame... some cards would further be adjusted - for example, in a largely cessation crystal free metagame, InfernCatty would probably drop Windstorms for more dig or maybe a tech line. On top of that you probably wouldn\\\'t be able to use quite the same ratios for the lines, as well as possibly including a setup basic which would add further adjustment to the trainer line to accommodate it.

agreed

In Yugioh? \\\"Oh look, this is a good card and will probably result in me gaining advantage more often than not...\\\" means it\\\'s now taking the place of a less advantageous card in 90+% of tournament decks.

The only time card games fall prey to the \\\"predictable deck syndrome\\\" is when the CCG itself allows it or the CCG itself contains flawed, overpowered cards that become usable that way - Pokemon itself fell prey to that last season and the season before last with the Holon Transceiver engine showing up in damn near every deck anyone played, ever - there was simply no reason for nearly any deck to play any other trainer engine.

agreed

Or do you think the only reason Transceiver engines became so prevalent was because Worlds 05\\\'s deck lists were posted and used it...?

trans became popular because people were to lazy to find a way to play without it
hence why i created decks like typhoken, which destroyed almost any deck running transciever, and did kill any deck running the holon castform starter

it was the best engine, therefore it won

They do make their own decks, but even with help and fixes from local players, sometimes the combo isn\\\'t quite up to snuff or, like I experienced last season myself, the combo is just too fragile and slow to be reliable against the tournament metagame. Not everyone can even attend tournaments on a regular basis, and if your local playgroup only consists of a handful of players or mostly lower caliber players, you aren\\\'t going to have much success playtesting. Your deck might dominate locally (as mine did), but then you go to a tournament and go 1-4 (as mine did).

i did the same thing
my evo deck never lost a single time at my local league
then it kinda bombed at br\\\'s
so what did i learn from this? absolutely nothing, it happens. the trick is to try to predict what you will see, and that isnt always possible

those kids could simply work together, look at the card set, and see what looks nasty and what will be popular
its what we did at our league
i told everyone blissey would be rampant
few believed me, and thus suffered from constant beat downs

And if you call that sour grapes, you\\\'ll just be evading the topic... you\\\'ve seen me play personally and you know I\\\'m not a bad player. Not the greatest around but... well, that\\\'s simply not important here.[/QUOTE]

i fling the sour grapes card only when the person keeps whining about loses everywhere
seeing as how this is the first time ive seen this from you, i wouldnt throw down the grape gauntlet :lol:
 
Did you absolutely overlook my parenthetical statement about losing to those you help?

Typical liberal. Take things out of context and distort them far beyond their intended meaning. So, let me expound.

Helping someone become better, with the end-goal to make your competition better, is a noble cause. You're less likely to beat them, but when you do, there's a higher sense of accomplishment. Likewise, when they beat you, you feel a sense of pride for your "apprentice," knowing they probably could not have beaten you without your tutoring.

Helping others become better, thereby elevating your own competition, is by NO MEANS contradictory to the Spirit of the Game. Making others better in order to help yourself become better is NEVER a bad thing.

Oh well. I'll never understand the liberal idea that winning means someone has to lose, which in their mind's eye, is an evil, cynical concept.

Prehaps you should have read your post before you posted as it came across as VERY sarcastic.

We "liberals" aren't stupid, you know :thumb:
 
those kids could simply work together, look at the card set, and see what looks nasty and what will be popular
its what we did at our league
i told everyone blissey would be rampant
few believed me, and thus suffered from constant beat downs
You know that doesn't work. A group of lesser skilled players can only better themselves so much when playing each other. it requires interaction with higher skilled players to get better. Tips, tricks, and advice from better players can go a long way in helping newer or less skilled players.

Also, you point about the magic card makes no sense. That was one card, easily tech'd into any deck. No one deck dominates right now. if PUI posted the best empoleon, blissey, kricketune, and mario list it wouldn't cause all the players to swerve in one direction and play the same deck. The only change in the game would be that players would have access to better lists and thus have better chances of doing well. Even though you and countless others put that down, I feel it's a good thing. It's a good thing to see new players do well, and to see fresh faces winning tournaments.

Even if that makes the elite...not so elite :/
 
Sorry Matt, but skilled players will NEVER post their winning lists on here- most of them anyways.
I wont. For reasons already stated on this thread. Your really beating a dead horse IMHO.

SteveP. nothing but love for you on this end. But i will say this, i am glad i don't attend events
you run knowing how you feel about sharing winning decks and "techs" ;) Might not be against any
rule, but as a player I wouldn't appreciate it. Not that it matters, winning decks spread like
wildfire on the internet anyways. Your just being a part of it.
 
You know that doesn\\\'t work. A group of lesser skilled players can only better themselves so much when playing each other. it requires interaction with higher skilled players to get better. Tips, tricks, and advice from better players can go a long way in helping newer or less skilled players.

how does it require interaction? do these kids not have any minds of there own?
how are they not capable of coming up with, accidentally or through hard work, a new powerful deck that helps shape the metagame?
seriously, ive come up with some amazing decks just from talking to little kids, like a few 8 year olds at my local league said that rampardos wasnt meant to have his own deck, cuz he makes himself die
he then went on to suggest lucario with him
i built it, it worked

the only thing new players lack is good judgement
good judgement comes from experience
experience comes from BAD judgement

Also, you point about the magic card makes no sense. That was one card, easily tech\\\'d into any deck. No one deck dominates right now. if PUI posted the best empoleon, blissey, kricketune, and mario list it wouldn\\\'t cause all the players to swerve in one direction and play the same deck. The only change in the game would be that players would have access to better lists and thus have better chances of doing well. Even though you and countless others put that down, I feel it\\\'s a good thing. It\\\'s a good thing to see new players do well, and to see fresh faces winning tournaments.

Even if that makes the elite...not so elite :/

actually, the card was a (2)(R)(B) multi color, not so easily thrown into any deck
its like saying you can throw gardevior ex into any deck, it just doesnt work

as for the best list, who says its the best?
bobby has swept 5 battle roads, does that mean his list is the best?
maybe the best list belongs to some kid in montana who has so few tournoments around him that he gets like no attention

and giving away another players decklist? how would that help anything?
if you have my list, that gives me an auto disadvantage
how is that fair? just because i won an event now my deck is up for grabs?
if i won a tournoment with a deck, or even several tournoments, its because i worked on a deck and played well with it (that or i donked the living **** out of alot of people [grinder 07 anyone?])

what right does another player have to my hard made list? why cant they damn well make their own?
make a deck, it fails, you pay attention to your games, you find out why, and you edit it
if you want, you can also ask an elite player for their advice
this way, you learn and become a better player
just base your list off of what is online, and all i ahve to do is change decks or add in a few techs and BAM, i gotcha again
 
Sorry Matt, but skilled players will NEVER post their winning lists on here- most of them anyways.
I wont.
Yeah, but John is more than happy to help friends offline. That's were the most valueable help can be found - offline. Get to know people, become friends. The best help I ever got was watching Yamato play in person. Judging tournaments also helps. I use the Gym to help me anticipate the metagame. Even then, under this new format, the metagame is so fluid, it's often a crap shoot.
 
Thanks for the pm Steve- I appreciated it :)

Those who "know" me know I'll always offer help.

And, like Steve, watching Yamato in 05 was the most help I ever got in terms
of just playing Pokemon. Awesome display!
 
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