Bad Gamesmanship- This needs to stop NOW.

[bulbasnore]

So Kim, does NOT reporting it make the discussion less valid?

Of course not, but in the general case it makes improvement less likely.

If judges are missing the calls/TOs tripping over event issues, then grousing about it here, only, it is not as helpful as also reporting it.

If players are gaming/cheating, waiting til after the event is over to discuss it, ur, let's just say, its not as helpful as having the chance at catching them and applying the penalty at the event. To say the least, one might be actually helping real cheaters/gamers by not reporting them to event officials, even if those officials don't have the experience to deal with it or one doesn't have the evidence to make the concern actionable.

So, I'll happily ask the question when these reports come up. Its good for the game and the players in my opinion if I do so. And its not something I'm afraid to do in real life either. And I've also given this recommendation out when I've been the concern... after trying to address the issue as best I could.

While discussion without report is not invalid, asking if there's been a report is neither irrelevant nor invalid either.

 

[SteveP]

Of course not, but in the general case it makes improvement less likely.

If judges are missing the calls/TOs tripping over event issues, then grousing about it here, only, it is not as helpful as also reporting it.

If players are gaming/cheating, waiting til after the event is over to discuss it, ur, let's just say, its not as helpful as having the chance at catching them and applying the penalty at the event. To say the least, one might be actually helping real cheaters/gamers by not reporting them to event officials, even if those officials don't have the experience to deal with it or one doesn't have the evidence to make the concern actionable.

So, I'll happily ask the question when these reports come up. Its good for the game and the players in my opinion if I do so. And its not something I'm afraid to do in real life either. And I've also given this recommendation out when I've been the concern... after trying to address the issue as best I could.

While discussion without report is not invalid, asking if there's been a report is neither irrelevant nor invalid either.

Well stated Kim. :wink:

Reporting the incident to the proper authorities in a timely manner will achieve the best response. No disagreement from me.

Nevertheless, reporting it here only, though not official and timely, is MUCH better than not reporting it at all. PTOs/HJs should welcome such reports rather than become frustrated. Sometimes, cops can't catch the criminals "in the act" -- they need informants.

Think of this as "Monday Morning Quarterbacking." The game is over. It can't be undone. BUT, lots can be learned, and hopefully improved upon for the next game.

 

[ryanvergel]

Well stated Kim. :wink:

Reporting the incident to the proper authorities in a timely manner will achieve the best response. No disagreement from me.

Nevertheless, reporting it here only, though not official and timely, is MUCH better than not reporting it at all. PTOs/HJs should welcome such reports rather than become frustrated. Sometimes, cops can't catch the criminals "in the act" -- they need informants.

Think of this as "Monday Morning Quarterbacking." The game is over. It can't be undone. BUT, lots can be learned, and hopefully improved upon for the next game.

Lesson: Be a pokenarc.

 

[bulbasnore]

It's a decision you have to make when you have a nascent bad element in a community.

• Risk it, call the authorities and be a part of the solution.
• Play it safe, keep silent and let the bad element grow.

 

[Martin]

I've never had an issue with shady opponents, but I have had some shady judges before. One of who'm you all may know

 

[SD PokeMom]

I've never had an issue with shady opponents, but I have had some shady judges before. One of who'm you all may know

martin: if you've got something to say then say it.

this kind of 'guess who i'm talking about, hehehe' innuendo does no one: players, judges, POP...any good, and frankly is just trolling. i thought better of you

'mom

 

[bulbasnore]

I've never had an issue with shady opponents, but I have had some shady judges before. One of who'm you all may know

Yah, bro, out with it. If you want to talk about it, let's hear it.

 

[RandyDragon]

okay, on this particular subject, I have sort of a "what if" that I've kinda dealt with as a competitor. I'm playing against my opponent, let's call him Player X, and Player X's friend (Player Y for the sake of this) is involved in the game at the table next to us. Now durring my turn, Player Y tries to start some meaningless conversation about something pointless to distract me, thus giving his friend Player X some level of an advantage. Does Player Y's involvment constitute some level of interference that could be reported to a judge or is it just something that I'm gonna have to deal with and can't do anything about it?

(sorry this got so wordy)

 

[P_A]

If you object to it, you can politely say that "we can talk after the match." If the person persists, then it's probably best to talk to the judge in private.

 

[bulbasnore]

If its disturbing you, then it is 'disturbing a match in progress', which violation is found under "Unsporting - Minor".

I'd first tell the guy, "hey, let's not talk now, but between rounds, I'm in a match."

If he keeps it up after you've told him, in effect, "I'm playin' heah!" then, yah, signal for a judge and explain it. Judge should direct the player to stop injecting his wonderfulness into your match and give a caution or warning.

 

[Clear]

gee, wouldn't that be a wonderful world then.

I'm sorry, but as far as things go, I'm not exactly a role model player, so that basically out the window there. It's simply biased on both ends.

So far, it is only "my words" against your own, but no one has the guts to stand up to the matter, since it is "none of their business" and "they don't want trouble". I have been telling everyone I see on this matter, I didn't even mention their names and they know EXACTLY who I am talking about.

Besides, these acts are just like coughing on purpose when it is your opponent is to swing to club at golf. You can't call them on it, but it changes the game to their favor. It is cheating without getting caught.

 

[SteveP]

gee, wouldn't that be a wonderful world then.

I'm sorry, but as far as things go, I'm not exactly a role model player, so that basically out the window there. It's simply biased on both ends.

So far, it is only "my words" against your own, but no one has the guts to stand up to the matter, since it is "none of their business" and "they don't want trouble". I have been telling everyone I see on this matter, I didn't even mention their names and they know EXACTLY who I am talking about.

Besides, these acts are just like coughing on purpose when it is your opponent is to swing to club at golf. You can't call them on it, but it changes the game to their favor. It is cheating without getting caught.

Gamesmanship, by itself, is not necessarily wrong; thus the inclination by some judges to refrain from imposing a penalty. Honest bluffing (oxymoron - hehe) is an example. Trying to read someone's "tells" is another example of gamesmanship that can't really be penalized, and in my opinion, shouldn't be penalized.

When gamesmanship crosses the line over to unsporting conduct, cheating, or other specifically-prohibited activities, then and only then should judges get involved.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if every Pokemon game was won or lost strictly based on skill and luck? Naw, that would be so boring. :wink:

Putting "bad" and "gamesmanship" in the same sentence doesn't automatically make it bad. What about "good gamesmanship?" Gamesmanship is what it is.

 

[P_A]

You lost me there, Clear. Was your statement meant to be an honest comment, or a sarcastic one?

gee, wouldn't that be a wonderful world then.

You might want to clear that up.

I'm sorry, but as far as things go, I'm not exactly a role model player,

I think both you and I realize this is the truth. I don't mean any offence here, just stating the truth. However the rest of that paragraph has me puzzled. Can you elaborate here so I understand what you mean:

so that basically out the window there. It's simply biased on both ends.

What's out the window? Who or What's biased? And biased how?

So far, it is only "my words" against your own,

Who? .... Me? My words? Clear, please don't misunderstand me. Believe it or not, I'm on your side. If you or ANYONE can make a case and make it stick, we are fully prepared to ACT. That person, or persons would be gone from the event. However neither I or any of my or anyone else's judges can DQ someone on heresay - there has to be proof. Report it at the event, AT THE TIME OF THE PROBLEM WITHIN THAT MATCH, and see the difference.

but no one has the guts to stand up to the matter, since it is "none of their business" and "they don't want trouble". I have been telling everyone I see on this matter, I didn't even mention their names and they know EXACTLY who I am talking about.

I'm sorry Clear but I just find that :nonono: .... sad. Then they are just as much to blame for the problem aren't they?

I never wanted this thread to come to a point where it's so and so's word against someone else's. But tell me truthfully, in a system where you have to publicly accept the fact that a person is innocent until proven guilty, what else do you think we judges can do for you if you don't want to "make" or "get into trouble"? Should we take the blame for you? When will you feel strongly enough to do what's right? When you lose to a cheater at World's? By that time it's too late if you ask me.

Both PTO's and a few judges in your area are in the loop here on this subject. Considering the importance of the remaining events, and the K value, rules violations will be dealt with differently (definitely stricter) than you are used to, and those with a proven history of violations will find even stricter starting penalties. If anyone wants to avoid a problem, do your utmost to show sotg, and keep your nose clean. Of course disqualification by POP is the only way for a lasting problem to be dealt with, but be assured they will be notified for EVERY infraction of a warning or higher in events in your area - ALL OF THEM.

 

[Clear]

I'm sorry, I was just sarcastic there. I take offense to things easily, if this offended you, I'm sorry. I have to tendency to make words sound more confusing then they should be.

It's just that I'm getting increasing frustrated to deal with them.

Let me put it to you this way, we had our league in our area last Sunday, and we had a whopping record of 26 people, and at least 12 of us were Masters with competitive decks. We had a little tourney and it actually cut to top 4, and if I am honest, I had more fun playing that without all that rulesharking and smugness that is enough to choke a horse.

And no, I'm not blaming you on the whole "people are not coming out" issue. To be blunt, I'm complaining. Honestly, I told them "Oh my god, would you just please come out and report? You won't get into anything. But if you don't say anything, they will get away with it." But no one took my words seriously, and then I'll be the one coming up to you and saying the same words, and you know where that will end up.

I fully understand that it needs solid proof. and believe I will come out and say something is wrong, no matter what. I am now telling everyone I see on this matter, telling them if you see anyone, especially those people, with those type of behavior. Telling them is one thing, but for them to act of them... or even catching on to the act is difficult.

You see where I am going with this? It's the "You know, he was really annoying and distracting and stuff and made me misplay that one move. But oh well, it's over now." That is the type of mentality players are having, and the people that are pulling this off know perfectly well that they won't do anything about it, and that is why they will keep doing it.

Both PTO's and a few judges in your area are in the loop here on this subject. Considering the importance of the remaining events, and the K value, rules violations will be dealt with differently (definitely stricter) than you are used to, and those with a proven history of violations will find even stricter starting penalties. If anyone wants to avoid a problem, do your utmost to show sotg, and keep your nose clean. Of course disqualification by POP is the only way for a lasting problem to be dealt with, but be assured they will be notified for EVERY infraction of a warning or higher in events in your area - ALL OF THEM.

Well, I know I got my history... I'll definitely be keeping myself in check.

My question is... do they have a history? They don't even get anything, because people are too limp to come and talk about it. Is it wrong? Yes. But do they get caught in it? I don't think so. But you can answer that one.

Aren't they just going to get away with a slap in the back?

 

[NoPoke]

clear,

you don't need solid proof. As a player you are quite within your rights to just report a good or bad tournament experience. POP do want to know that players are enjoying the tournament experience and also when they are not.

However, don't rant at POP; keep it brief. If at all possible stick to a positive tone and find something to praise too. Nothing is ever all bad.

HTH

[I too can trip myself up with language Humpty Dumpty said it best http://sundials.org/about/humpty.htm 'When [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' ]

 

[ugly psyducky]

It's just that I'm getting increasing frustrated to deal with them.

Just think about that, if you are getting frustrated, then the tactic is working. You may not have control over their behaviour (by all means REPORT IT IF YOU SEE IT), but you do have control how you react. If you become frusturated and disruptive you become the problem and our attention is on you not them. Probably not the outcome you want.

Aren't they just going to get away with a slap in the back?

[/QUOTE]

None of the judges in the area, and I am 100% sure of this -- will take dubious play, unsportting conduct or cheating lightly at Tier 2 events -- there is only one penalty option for this. Trust the judging staff and play the game, and if you are unhappy by all means report it to the POP. Sure we pride ourselves on running the best tournaments we can, but they are for the players and if you believe this is the only option then use it. Discussing this in a forum such as this provides little ability for the judging staff to assist you, no matter where we sit on the matter.

 

[P_A]

Clear, if they or you have a history, I am under obligation to not discuss it with others except possibly other judges that may be involved in future judging. Under the penalty guidelines, it says that "In order to avoid singling a player out or making a spectacle of the incident, Tournament Organizers and Judges may want to assign penalties in private." I try to take that seriously when I can. So that means I don't single the player out afterward either, ... by exposing flaws. I have enough of my own to deal with without trying to get rid of the "rafter" in someone else's "eye". (Kudos to you if you know where that one came from.) There is one thing I can stress though, you can't have a history of a problem until it's recorded for the first time.

And no you don't have to have proof or specifics in reporting a bad tournament experience, but how will POP correct any problems involved with your bad experience if you aren't willing to elaborate? Doesn't make much sense otherwise.

 

[gashmoigidy]

this is pretty true. Not many actually cheat anymore but most just do anything they can to win.

 

[P_A]

Hence the rise of this thread. I understand the reasoning why somone would do all they can to win. Trying to build the best deck in the format, overcoming the metagame in the area with the right matchups for that great deck - yes, that's quite the challenge, and definitely fun. However, underhanded tactics to add to that, and trick your opponents is an entirely unneccessary proceedure. It's wrong, unfair and immoral. If you feel the need to do this to win, you are by far the person most to be pitied. I hope you get everything that's coming to you. That's my stance on the matter.

 

[DJ_Plush]

We don't have any problems with bad gamesmanship in my area. In fact, we all make sure to practice good gamesmanship whenever I go to league. Although, I do think judges should watch more carefully, and remind players that they need to be good role models.