vaporeon
Moderator
Great post. I appreciate you posting construction criticism. Now we can get somewhere. Keep in mind that the list I posted are cards I think are a issue in the current format and could be a issue in the new format as well. Leafeon may not be a issue in this current format, but it may be a issue in the new format. Same with Charizard. I'll go in and respond to your post.
Well at least you do say that a few posts say why not, but I suppose, due to your blindness, the situation must be rectified. This has to be done so that even you can understand how this list is bogus and how the very idea is not fitting for this kind of card game. Well to be honest the idea of side decks and bans in general have been dealt with prior, but as you wished, as shown by the highlighted quote, the list you provided is about to receive a painful probing.
Banned- 0 Per Deck/Side Deck
G-Booster
This card is played in one deck that has not really dominated the game for an extended period of time. Sure an argument can be made that it was the BDIF, but not for overly long or by an overly large gap. This card also comes with a significant drawback, which is namely not being able to play other ace spec cards, such as Dowsing Machine, which is arguably stronger. (As a side note dowsing machine is conveniently not on the list despite being basically the undisputed most played ace spec in the format. Yeah it does not look good for this list off the bat)
We can't say because you can't use any other (better?) Ace Spec cards that its not a good card. It knocks out almost every card in the format, ignoring its ability or effects that would prevent the damage. The card is also somewhat immune to Tool Scrapper and Megaphone, since you can recover it with Shadow Triad. The turn you play it, you're taking 1 or 2 prizes. This is better than Dowsing Machine one may argue, since its exclusive to one Pokemon, that can attack cheaply.
M Charizard- Flash Fire 013,069,107,108
No form of Mega Charizard EX has been seen in any serious competitive deck. Have a look at nationals results from around the world. Yveltal variants, Virgen and Plasma among others are the decks that are doing well. Despite this you want to ban Mega Charizard? Come on now.
For the format Im trying to create, M Charizard could be a problem, since it has no real drawbacks. The ban list tries to deal with the current and new format. It needs to be tested though.
Charizard EX- Flash Fire 012
The idea of a ban list is to correct the problems in a game, at least I presume, though considering how this list looks, I doubt that. It seems like you want to cater the game to suit you, not actually be the best it can be. That being said, where has Charizard EX ever been game breaking? Answer: No where. Next.
A ban list is suppose to do two things. The first thing is to remove problem cards from the format. The second thing is to look at what could be a threat to the new format. I believe Charizard EX (Combustion Wing) could be that threat. Again, it needs to be tested to know for sure but a card I think could be a problem.
Black Kyurem- Plasma Storm- 095
For once a card you could make an argument for... in the past. This card game has a trend to try and correct itself with the addition of new sets. Of course it does not always succeed, but it attempts to do so. And what do you know, it worked this time. Druddigon makes it so that this card is no longer a problem.
The reason for this is because the current game expects players to have all these tech to deal with decks. Some decks can afford to run the tech because they have the space to do so, however, most do not. This ban list is suppose to work with the idea of a side deck. Perhaps a ban is too harsh when a player could add FLF Druddigon 070 to their side deck. Perhaps this Black Kyurem is better at 1 per deck. You sill have a comeback factor, that would be good for that one game but you risk Druddigon being sided against you. Risk reward right? Again, its worth testing.
Sableye Dark Explorers
One of the best card ever printed, sure. However once again the game has corrected itself. No serious deck runs more than one sableye. I mean when I won nationals a few weeks back, I played one sableye. Never did I use it in a game that I won. This card is so broken. /sarcasm.
I also made it to the final with a Vaporeon/Pidgeot deck when Gardy/Gallade was a big deck, so that mean the format was not as bad as people say it was right? Sure, I was the odd one out, not being hit by Psychic Lock since I did not use abilities, or not rely on them. You were the odd one out of the rest. Sure there were also other who played 2 Sableye. Some play 3. I prefer 2 myself but if I needed space, Sableye is a good option to remove. Perhaps Sableye is not useful in the mirror but it is against all other decks that cant keep up. Its a really good tool that rewards the player using it. Is 1 prize worth me losing 4 to laser, hammer and dark patch?
Crushing Hammer
This list is getting repetitive. Hammer spam was a thing for a while and not really overpowered ever, but it is barely viable now. You want to kill it? Kill a tier 2 deck for diversity. Please tell me you understand how messed up that is.
There are currently 3 trainers in the format that discard energy, one of which I forgot. The card punishes decks that rely on single attachments. Perhaps a hard ban on it is rough. I say test it at one, along with Team Flare Grunt and Enhanced Hammer and see what happens. This card does not hurt your dark patch and deluge but thats not the only play in the game.[/B]
Mewtwo EX
When was Mewtwo EX last a major major threat? Oh let me think, I suppose one year ago. I mean sure it was decent after that, but never really best card in format since then. Ban it to 0 copies per deck? Smrat.
Mewtwo is still a very good card. With all the energy acceleration, Mewtwo will also be a problem in the new format. With cards like Muscle Band, it hits harder. Its also too aggressive towards evolution decks.
Yveltal EX
The single handed best card in format at the moment. Best card ever printed? Maybe, but probably not. One of the best offensive cards ever printed? Definitely. However once again consider why would you ban this card to 0 copies in a deck. No deck could play 1 Yveltal EX and would be broken because of it. However if there is a single card in the game that deserves a nerf, it is this and hypnotoxic laser. (Side note: This is not bias against these cards because I hate them per se, I won nationals playing both in high quantities of my own free will, if I have free will, but that is not part of this discussion)
This is the same reason for the ban on Mewtwo. Yveltal EX has base 20 damage PLUS 20 more for each energy on both active Pokemon. Yveltal is also a dark Pokemon with access to Dark Patch and DCE. The big dragon bird can deal 100 damage on its own with a Muscle Band and 3 energy. Once it scored that knockout, its another DCE, putting it at 140. Unless your opponent is playing a Mewtwo or Yveltal, you just won. I dont know about you but I dont like trading 4 prizes to get 2. Then again, you prefer that trade right? Sure its biased on both ends but what is better for the game?
Dark Claw
Let's ban Dark Claw entirely, but not ban Muscle Band entirely. Why? Hint: Dark Claw is 100% outclassed and essentially a worthless card now, except for possibly better artwork in an entirely dark deck. That warrants a ban. Suuuuuure.
The only reason for this ban is because of Muscle Band. I want to keep it at 2 to help reduce damage of attack. If I keep Dark Claw at 2 or 4, giving dark decks the 4 to 6 "muscle bands", then whats the point of the ban to began with? This way all decks have access to a max of 2 muscle band.
Let's take a break here and notice that there are so far 0-1 cards that should be limited. Good job.
To be fair, you have not really listed a justified reason why these should not be banned, other than 2 we could agree on.
Limited- 1 Per Deck/Side Deck
Professor Juniper/ Professor Sycamore
Nothing about these cards is inherently overpowered. I have never lost a game because my opponent played a Juniper. Seriously looking back at history, this is not even one of the best supporters ever made. Sure it is good, but Collector, Roseanne, Mentor, Cyrus and Castaway to name a few a pretty much better. And there was no need to ban them. Get the point?
Hard search will always be good, since it takes out the random factor or unknown draw and shuffle draw. However, in my game play experience, Juniper lead me into the needed, or the opponent into what they needed. Same thing with those early Virbank Lasers with Sableye leads, getting 3+ energy into play on the first turn. For the reason Pot of Greed was banned in Yugioh is the same reason its restricted here and its the after effect of the draw. Its not outright banned... You can still use one but you now have to use other draw options. Thats not a bad thing, right? By the way, Roseanne and Castaway were personal favorites of mine. Not overpowered because back then, the game was less dependent on trainers to win like today
Enhanced Hammer
Hey let's ban a nerfed Lost Remover to one copy per deck. Tell me you see how that is so stupid.
The idea is to not completely crush a deck that uses special energy. With a side deck, a player could use 4 E hammers, 4 Flare Grunts and C.Hammer to beat them. Tell me how that is fair? You get 1 E. Hammer. Want to use it again, you have Dowsing Machine. You also have the 1 Team Flare Grunt if you want to use your supporter. The idea is to limit aggressive trainers.
Hypnotoxic Laser
Uuuuuuh a second kind-of almost legitimate card to nerf. Nothing to say here. HTL is strong and I suppose if one wanted, one could test it with some for of restriction. However there is no real need for that as the game has been made with HTL in mind, so other decks not playing HTL now, would get a massive boost if this were banned. That is of course unless you nerf them too. Wait a second... that is exactly what you are doing. Meddling with the format so that it is how you want it to by making it worse. Lower everything except a select few from a 100 to a 50. Does nothing, but help the select few. You should become a politician. Oh wait never mind, every suggestion you make is unpopular. Go become a republican.
How to tackle this post... First let me start by saying I DONT want to nerf or errata, rather create a format that can play alongside standard, with more competitive rule. HTL was NOT made with this format in mind. XY cards, save a few are NOT broken in an XY on format. BW Format ruined the game (subjective I know). XY rules were changed WITH BW in mind, so now we have odd card interactions. Without BW in the format, the list changes but its here and will be here for who knows how long. Also your last statment was unneeded since Im trying to do what I think is good for the game, which is something republicans would not do. If anything, most post in this thread are pretty conservative in nature, while Im trying to make it fun for everyone.
Pokemon Catcher
This card is not broken at all anymore after the nerf of a coin flip. Sure it brings luck, but it is not broken. A card game will have luck. Coin flips are a part of this game. Get out of here.
Thinking about this a bit more, perhaps this being at 1 is a little harsh. However anything more than 2 is a bit too much. With Lysandre in the format, 4 effects like this in a deck with trainers is still too aggressive. I say test it but 4 of is a no go to began with. Remember the reason Pokemon Catcher was made to began with. Reversal...
Lysandre
This is a supporter of a previously great card, making it balanced. In the history of this game the Gust of Wind effect has been used to great success, bar Catcher no flip/Gust of Wind and arguably Reversal/Catcher with flip. Did I just contradict myself? No. Catcher with flip is not a ban worthy offense, as it does not break the game, however it is not a success.
While Catcher may be a different story with its nerf, Im pretty adamant on this card being a one of, supporter or not. Still it should be tested to know for sure. Most players would agree they would like less random effect in the game. I think the Catcher nerf was pointless but prove to me the powers at be dont know what their doing. I always though players should be on a testing team before cards are released.
Klinklang (Plasma Steel)
Not played. Next.
In this new format, It may be a problem. Plasmaklang and Aromatisse is a thing you know. Think long term for a while.
Energy Retrieval
Broken. So broken. I can't believe how broken this card is. I mean my opponents forfeit whenever I have two energy in my hand.
Did you just stop debating? Im asking for real feed back here. I opt to limit this to one because of decks that accelerate energy from the hand. They can still make their plays but they would be as often and will need to be used at the right time. Remember, skillful plays are wanted here, not brainless.
Superior Energy Retrieval
Above on steroids, but nowhere near being broken. Cards can abuse this card and the previous card, but even they cannot abuse them in a broken fashion, but even if they could, it would not make this and the above card broken.
Ability based energy acceleration love these kind of cards. They can still use it, just only 1. Between, Cilan, Energy retrieval, SER and Professors Letter, that 4 cards (8 max) that can fish for energy. Remember, in this format, cards like this can be overpowered.
Professor Letter
Great card. Broken? No. Reason? Two energies provides consistency, however it does not instant win you the game or give a massive unfair advantage.
Its not broken by any means but it is too good for decks that accelerate from the hand or discard pile. You can still use one, and according to your Sableye, "good" players only need one anyway, right?
Leafeon -Plasma Freeze- 011
No winning deck bar two have even played Leafeon. Only one of these decks really did well. It did not dominate the format. It did not have Leafeon front and center. Leafeon is not broken and no four Leafeon in play is not an automatic win. Come back to reality.
Like I said before, its very good with other big hitters that do large damage for a single energy. In the format Im trying to create, it will also be too good, even more so than the current format. You can still use it, but only 1 in this format. It could be tested to see if more are needed but based on results from other card games, effect like this are either banned or limited to 1.
Reality check: At best you have listed 2 cards that could be nerfed, not banned, but I'll grant you that. 2/19. Great list.
Again, its not my place to nerf cards but create a format that can exist alongside Standard.
Limited- 2 Per Deck/Side Deck
Aromatisse (Fairy Transfer)
Has won no nationals if I recall correctly. If it has, at least not many. Not broken. Not over centralizing. Not ban worthy.
Winning a nationals has nothing to do with it. Sure it helps for data but thats not the end all be all. Perhaps Aromatisse does not need to be looked at. Perhaps the issue is with Max Potion. If for say, Max potion were banned or limited to 1, Aromatisse would become less powerful because its healing options are very limited. I say test it to know for sure but I think Max Potion is my line of reasoning for this.
Emboar (Infernal Fandango)
A good card no doubt. Has it dominated the format? Yeah, thought so.
Again, Im thinking for both formats with the use of a side deck as well. Its still a good card in this new format so putting it at 2 is still good and gives options. Fire also have 2 Blacksmith to help with that. Remember that thing I said about after effects and such.
Blastoise (Deluge)
This deck was possibly BDIF for a while. Then it was nerfed with things like Druddigon and it is no longer an issue. Do not kill it further. You cannot create fun and strategy by limiting decent (read: not broken) archetypes.
Read the comment about. Also, Druddigon does not beat this deck.
Keldeo EX
Again is not a problem, unless it's checks are removed. Oh wait, you want to ban Mewtwo and Yveltal? Why on Earth? A game has been designed by its creators in a way that would not be broken (and it currently is not broken) so banning something could upset the situation as it does here. In the real world this card is not an issue.
Its clear to me the card creators dont know "good" card design. It seems these cards are not tested at all (the nerf, erratas and rule changes would suggest this). Mewtwo, would be its only real check if we look at cards all decks could use but the deck being hit means it needs to save resources to score these big KO. They would need other attackers since Im sure they wont only want 2 Keldeo. In this new format. Guess what, Blastoise uses Mewtwo and Yveltal better than most decks.
Garbodor
Garbodor blocks abilities in a way that requires a stage 1 and a tool, which your opponent can remove. How is this broken?
Its not broken but in this new format, someone could find a way to break it. Most players only use 2 anyway. With a side deck, perhaps it being a 2 is a bit small since there are side deck options but Garbodor is a card that can easily over centralize the meta. Gardy/Gallade, Luxchump and others did this. Sure there are ways to stop this but it forces players to either play it or play a counter and thats not much fun, right?
Trevenant
Trainer lock is annoying, but Trevenant has not dominated the game or won anything significant or done anything seriously note worthy. Not broken.
The issue here is with over dominate strategies. Unless you're playing a dark deck, you wont deal with this easily. Garbodor does not stop it and has no hard, reliable counters except Absol, which most decks can't use. Its normally better to stop something like this at the source. its not as bad as Keystone Seal but it can be a issue in this new format. If a nerf or errata is to be issued, it would be for Absol attack cost to require a DCE instead, but thats a bit over my pay grade. Testing is required though!
Dark patch
A third candidate for something that could be nerfed as it has created a deck that has been on top of the game for a long time (Side note: On top, not dominated). This, like Yveltal and HTL, is something one could consider a nerf on. Except that it will be rotated in a month and a half. On top of that it has not stood on top of the game alone, except during 2012 Worlds.
This is a wrong statement. The deck has been on the top since Dark Explorers. Any counter the deck was though to have did not work. It got stronger with lasers and Yveltal and thats because of how usable this card is... Even more so with Sableye. With a extended format being a possibility (BW-On sanctioned), we get to see these cards around longer.
Blacksmith
Has yet to prove any level of overpowered characteristics? Therefore the logical conclusion is to ban it. Seems logic.
Trainer based energy acceleration has always been a issue. its a supporter, sure but a strong one. In this new format, Im sure it would be abused with Emboar. its not banned because its not broken but is very abuseable. Sure it needs to be tested but there is no reason to believe the same thing that happened with dark parch wont happen here. Pal pad is a thing too.
Colress Machine
Is speed Lugia a problem for the game? Answer: No. Is a deck that abuses this a problem for the game? Answer: No. Is this used in one or maybe two decks? Answer: Yes. Does this make it broken? Answer: No.
It speeds up Zapdos, Articuno, Moltres, Kyurem, Deoxyx, Absol... all Plasma Pokemon. its not broken by any means but its trainer based energy acceleration. See the theme here, they are all at 2. Go nuts with Dowsing machine though. The last 3 are used in top decks by the way, for the just in case you want to dog on Zapdos
Muscle Band
Oh here we are. Dark Claw > Muscle Band my friends. Dark Claw > Muscle Band. Now tell me. Which deck in the format gets an unfair advantage from this card? Oh wait, every deck can play it and no deck can play it in such a way that is greatly better than at least a few other decks. Not broken.
These card contribute to the OHKO factor the game has. I dont thin it needs to be banned. I feel its needed but it is too good. You have 2 now, and will need to play them when the time is right. Every deck has 2 so nothing is unfair, unless you wanted to use 4 dark claw as well.
Silver Bangle
You complain about overpowered EX cards. Then you ban a card that balances the situation. What do we call that? You decide.
This was decided on because of the side deck. The overpowered EX won't be around so no problem there. This is to prevent the non overpowered EX from being turned into lunch meat. You still get 2, just cant abuse them.
Max Potion
No deck abuses this card. No deck. None at all.
I can name a few that do and will in the new format but look up at the Aromatisse post.
N
A great supporter no doubt. Much needed in this format as no searching supporters or draw Pokémon exist. It is vital for consistency. It also brings in a form of deck management for the late game, which is skill, which falls under the category of strategy. You want to make this more strategic. Your plan to do so: Step 1: Remove strategy. Step 2: God knows. Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit. (Side note: This plan is so bad that a mere 3 step plan without ??? or god knows would not have sufficed.)
Well look at God's Flood. A lot of good that did for the all powerful creator right? "I know the world will be bad, so I will flood it, knowing full well it wont work" Back on topic, N at 2 is still perfectly fine. You still get your "skill" play but you now have to conserve your resources. Fun right? On top of that, N being at 2 brings less disruption to the game. Your opponent will no longer get N'ed out of the game so now we have plays were people can setup without the fear of losing everything. Want to disrupt your opponent, use Red Card with your 2 N. It should be tested to know for sure though. Wanna help with that?
That was that. How many even debatable cards were there, when I am being generous? 3? Out of? 32. 3/32.
I don't know why, but you seem to want to ban most playable cards even though they are not breaking the game in anyway. Good does not equal a ban worthy offense. Great does not equal a ban worthy offense. Playable does not equal a ban worthy offense. The only thing that equal a ban worthy offense is if something is broken and arguably you have mentioned 3 cards that are exceptionally good, but not broken necessarily.
I only have a handful of cards on the banned list. Those cards I feel are truly a problem with the format. Same for most things at 1. But the big thing here is to test the list to know for sure. Also, what do you mean by nerf? Seems you're using in many different ways.
Returning back to what I said. You are wrong. I just showed why. Now you say you play Zapdos and that this list represents what you think is broken. This qualifies people to make judgements about how you play the game. I will refrain from doing so as this post was quite aggressive, but how could it not be? Otherwise it would have been much too boring to type up. As a final side note, the language in this post is overly crude due to the length and time I typed it, as well as the fact that it was so repetitive due to the nature of the task.
You used Ad hominem most of your post here, made jokes most of the time and did not even attempt argue most points, using your personal bias to this. You appeal to authority to justify your reason. You won a tournament, good for you. Guess what, I have also won tournaments and done so with rogues so does that make me a better player than you? Also, I use Zapdos... Sure but does that make me a bad player? It kills Yveltal in 1 hit so it must be a good card but then again Yveltal kills Yveltal in 1 hit too so it must a bad card. Lets make things clear. I also play Yveltal/Darkrai, Blastoise/Keldeo, Plasma, Genesect, Pidgeot and the more fun tier 2/3 decks. I play this game just as well as the best of them. I can see more than one side of the game and I truly think what Im trying to do is for the better of the game. Sure the list needed to be tested and help is needed with that.
Still thanks for the post. You did more than most here.
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