SuperWooper
New Member
Now that all of this Rare Candy business is partially settled, I think it's safe to make this topic, as several others have done before me. Hidden Legends brought a whole new way of looking at things to the game. Suddenly, Blaziken wasn't the deck to play. Suddenly, rogue decks were thriving. Suddenly, the tier lists got lost.
A "Tier" is a grouping within a list. This list that the Tiers are going to be contained within is a list of the current competitive decks in the Eon format. Worlds is approaching fast, and now that the dust has settled from this Hidden Legends obsession, I think it's time we reevaluated this format as a group and found out what's really number one, according to the masses at least. ;P
Tier 1 is the tier at which the decks with the best chance of winning in a balanced environment are listed. Luck, cheating and player skill aside, the decks at the top of Tier one are going to be the ones you see at the top of the World Championship this coming August. You could guarantee a Tier list to be 100% accurate if not for the above three things. However, since these exist, this is only a rough outline of what's coming, what we should expect. Stepping back and taking a closer look, if you will.
Tier lists do not have to have a certain amount of Tiers, but the decks on the same Tiers should have a very similar, if not equal, situation in the format, or chance at winning considering the other decks present in the Eon age of pokemon. Just make sure when you list your Tiers that you don't have like 20 of them O.O Situations within metagames and winning percentages of some decks are very similar, and therefore some decks like share Tiers with others.
Some video games, like Super Smash Brothers Melee, for instance, have an official set of tiers that rank players according to potential win percentage in an environment without player skill, cheating, or luck. The list is always changing, just like it is in Pokemon. Here is the top of the (previous) SSBM Tier List (this list was changed a while ago and so this is the outdated version):
Tier 1:
Sheik
Marth
Tier 2:
Fox
Peach
Falco
As you can see, Sheik is the "best" character in the game. There are variables that can make this questionable in some players' minds, but if you were to pit two players of equal skill against each other, one using Sheik and one using any other character, and eliminated all variables such as luck and cheating, the Sheik player would win. That is what the Tier list is saying. Sheik and Marth are the best characters, but Sheik is ranked higher because in Sheik vs. Marth, Sheik wins. Whenever you have two decks in the same Tier, you base your judgement on a one-on-one scenario. Maybe Marth is better against more characters than Sheik, but Sheik deserves Tier 1, and Sheik beats Marth, so Sheik is the "best" character.
Do I believe in these tiers? Absolutely. Sheik is definitely either the first or second best character in the game. My top three are Sheik, Marth, and Fox, although I am not positive I would put them in that order. Tiers are actually fairly accurate, even when the ideal situations for them to exist are not present, and never will be. Luck and player skill are always fluctuating, and will never stop doing so.
Ignore all my rambling. Let's get to it. Worlds is approaching fast, just what...22 or so days before it starts? Let's start the lists. But before we do, let's get one thing straight:
Super Smash Brothers Melee involves far less luck than Pokemon. SSBM is a game where the player potentially controls every move their character makes by pressing buttons in certain patterns. Nobody is able to perfectly execute all their moves because we're just human, and don't have the intellegence level to calculate for every last detail of the field or of an opponent's move in the split seconds that it needs to be done. But the game is still fully controlable, and it would be possible to guarantee a win if our minds worked fast enough and there was perfect synchronization between our brain and fingers.
Pokemon has an uncontrolable aspect. The order of the cards in the deck. You can alter what cards will pop up in your opening seven-card hand somewhat, by putting extra copies of the card in your deck, but you can not absolutely control what cards will land where in the game, unless cheating occurs. But let's ignore cheating, this is (or will be, as soon as I'm done ranting) a Tier list. The order of the cards in your deck is uncontrolable, and therefore, the Tier list can not be "official", persay, because of the random aspects of the game.
First, a look at the biggest contenders for this year's World title:
Blaziken/Rayquaza/(Team Aqua's Manectric)
Blaziken/Exeggutor
Blaziken/Ninetales
Swampert/Suicune
Walrein/Milotic
Gardevoir
Sceptile/ex/Muk ex
Shiftry/Furret/Delcatty or Milotic
Metagross/Furret/Gorebyss or Milotic
Crobat/Gorebyss
Exploud/Wobbuffet
I'm sure I forgot some decks, and I apologize to those of you who play them. These are the ones that came to mind after about like 30 seconds. I'm kind of in a rush while writing this, so excuse any mistakes I make.
About these decks, I will not list all of them in the Tier list. These are just some options to ponder when making yours, or thinking about what you'll see at Worlds, or whatever else you might do with it. (Like anybody will post here anyway) Tier lists are not my idea, I don't know who came up with them, but they've been around a looong time. I'm not the "end-all, say-all" in this business, but I'm here to contribute, here's to hoping all of you will too.
Without further ranting...my Tier list for the 2004 World Championship!
Tier 1:
Shiftry/Furret/Delcatty or Milotic:
It covers its weaknesses too well to be ignored. Milotic for Blaziken, Shiftry for Gardevoir, and an onslaught of disruption like Shaman and Shiftry's first attack. With the new Rare Candy ruling, it gains a lot more power, enough to put it at the top of Tier 1. This deck is deadly, plain and simple. There isn't much to say except to watch out for it, it's fast, but not powerful enough to overcome a quick setup from a deck like Blaziken, since Milotic takes too long to power up too keep up with the constant energy cycling ability of Blaziken. But Blaziken got "hated" out of the format, so Shiftry reigns supreme.
Metagross/Furret/Gorebyss or Milotic:
Like Shiftry, this deck covers its weaknesses very well. Metagross for Gardevoir, and Milotic only adds to the healing that the metal energy provides for Metagross, as well as be a very important part of defeating Blaziken. Gorebyss has its strong points, like a free retreat cost, which is great synergy with Metagross's power, Metal Juncture, and the Nurse/Switch combo that is so powerful but hard to pull off. However, this deck can do it with ease, and with the new ruling, T2 Metagross is easy to achieve, and you won't be vulnerable to Rock TM either. Wally's Training first turn, evolve into Metagross the next. Its only real weakness is Blaziken. What else is there to stop it? Shiftry, perhaps, which is why this deck gets the number two spot.
Walrein/Milotic:
It's weak to metal, so Metagross stomps it. I've seen this deck do great things in great hands, but it isn't played by an abundance of people, the deck is has a huge problem with, Metagross, will never give the deck a snowball's chance. Milotic attacking is the way to go, but Milotic's downfall is that it removes damage counters from the opponent when it attacks. Since Metagross uses metal energy to reduce the damage in the first place, a fast Metagross gets a guaranteed 3 points when playing one of these decks. It won't get too far with an opponent like that. Aside from the fact that Metal destroys it, this deck is one of the best around.
Tier 2:
Swampert/Suicune:
You can't beat the classics, and this deck is classic. It handles mirrors nicely with Magneton, and the energy manipulation that Swampert, Suicune, Delcatty and Magneton all work together to create is astounding. However, this deck is very tight on space because of its three evolution lines. It's hard to play, and hard to win with. However, its advantage over Blaziken gives it the right to be up here. It conserves energy and allows for quick deck manipulation because of Magneton's resourcefulness, so it can keep up with the best of decks, faster than Walrein/Milotic, I imagine, so it gets a place in Tier numba two! Swampert ex's type advantage over Shiftry and Metagross ex, the biggest hitters in two of today's most popular decks, makes this deck worthy of the top of this Tier.
Blaziken/Rayquaza/(Team Aqua's Manectric):
It's still the most powerful deck in the format. It can destroy Metagross, go steady with Shiftry, and lick Gardevoir. Water will be in heavy supply at Nationals, but Team Aqua's Manectric will be able to put a dent in that. Walrein/Milotic is probably this deck's biggest rival, but Swampert/Suicune is a close second. Those aren't the decks that are most heavily played with water in them though. Gorebyss is everywhere, and it would seem that it is enough to overpower Blaziken. However, TAM destroys Gorebyss. If a major Gorebyss swarm attacks, get your Rayquaza set up. Decks like Crobyss don't play a lot of Crystal Shard, usually none, 1 tops, and Rayquaza rips through Gorebyss with two fire and a lightning and a TAM on the bench. A fast enough Blaziken can virtually beat anything it's up against, but setting up is the problem.
Gardevoir:
Gardevoir is not worthy of tier 1. Not by a long shot. Blaziken stomps it, as do Shiftry and Metagross. It's an extremely tight-space deck, and putting in counter gyms to stop its deadliest nemesis, the psychic resistance, can hurt your drawing engine badly, putting you at a huge disadvantage against many other decks when you have a counter gym or two in there, but they're not being used. This deck had problems once the dust from HL had settled and the SC results came in.
Tier 3:
Crobat/Gorebyss:
I hate to admit it, but this deck has been put on the map. Several of these made Top 16 at Nationals, and my good friend David won the ECSC in 11-14 with Crobyss. I am still unconvinced, however, that it is ready for the spotlight. It has trouble recovering from bad setups because of its lack of heavy damage, and is very dependant on DRE because of its lack of energy manipulation. It needs to get those things in play fast, and if it gets unlucky and can't find them on time, the deck is toast.
Exploud/Wobbuffet:
Exploud is recognized, alongside Metagross, as the deck(s) that trample Gardevoir without a problem. Its ability to put a damage counter on all pokemon in play for just 1 energy card is unparalled so far, and it synergized well with cards that require setback, such as Pokemon Nurse and Mr. Briney's Compassion, to heal its massive 120 HP and lay that energy right back down. This deck had problems after it was released to the public, people figured out that KO'ing the Explouds in one shot was the easiest way to deal with things, so people used Rayquaza ex, strange as it seemed, to KO the Exploud. This strategy actually worked, and it lost a lot of power. With Milotic being able to heal the damage Exploud does, Exploud has less potential now than ever, which is why its tier rating it so low, but there is hope, so it barely nabs tier 3.
All feedback is accepted, negative or positive. Thanks to everybody who's posted so far.
~Wooper
A "Tier" is a grouping within a list. This list that the Tiers are going to be contained within is a list of the current competitive decks in the Eon format. Worlds is approaching fast, and now that the dust has settled from this Hidden Legends obsession, I think it's time we reevaluated this format as a group and found out what's really number one, according to the masses at least. ;P
Tier 1 is the tier at which the decks with the best chance of winning in a balanced environment are listed. Luck, cheating and player skill aside, the decks at the top of Tier one are going to be the ones you see at the top of the World Championship this coming August. You could guarantee a Tier list to be 100% accurate if not for the above three things. However, since these exist, this is only a rough outline of what's coming, what we should expect. Stepping back and taking a closer look, if you will.
Tier lists do not have to have a certain amount of Tiers, but the decks on the same Tiers should have a very similar, if not equal, situation in the format, or chance at winning considering the other decks present in the Eon age of pokemon. Just make sure when you list your Tiers that you don't have like 20 of them O.O Situations within metagames and winning percentages of some decks are very similar, and therefore some decks like share Tiers with others.
Some video games, like Super Smash Brothers Melee, for instance, have an official set of tiers that rank players according to potential win percentage in an environment without player skill, cheating, or luck. The list is always changing, just like it is in Pokemon. Here is the top of the (previous) SSBM Tier List (this list was changed a while ago and so this is the outdated version):
Tier 1:
Sheik
Marth
Tier 2:
Fox
Peach
Falco
As you can see, Sheik is the "best" character in the game. There are variables that can make this questionable in some players' minds, but if you were to pit two players of equal skill against each other, one using Sheik and one using any other character, and eliminated all variables such as luck and cheating, the Sheik player would win. That is what the Tier list is saying. Sheik and Marth are the best characters, but Sheik is ranked higher because in Sheik vs. Marth, Sheik wins. Whenever you have two decks in the same Tier, you base your judgement on a one-on-one scenario. Maybe Marth is better against more characters than Sheik, but Sheik deserves Tier 1, and Sheik beats Marth, so Sheik is the "best" character.
Do I believe in these tiers? Absolutely. Sheik is definitely either the first or second best character in the game. My top three are Sheik, Marth, and Fox, although I am not positive I would put them in that order. Tiers are actually fairly accurate, even when the ideal situations for them to exist are not present, and never will be. Luck and player skill are always fluctuating, and will never stop doing so.
Ignore all my rambling. Let's get to it. Worlds is approaching fast, just what...22 or so days before it starts? Let's start the lists. But before we do, let's get one thing straight:
Super Smash Brothers Melee involves far less luck than Pokemon. SSBM is a game where the player potentially controls every move their character makes by pressing buttons in certain patterns. Nobody is able to perfectly execute all their moves because we're just human, and don't have the intellegence level to calculate for every last detail of the field or of an opponent's move in the split seconds that it needs to be done. But the game is still fully controlable, and it would be possible to guarantee a win if our minds worked fast enough and there was perfect synchronization between our brain and fingers.
Pokemon has an uncontrolable aspect. The order of the cards in the deck. You can alter what cards will pop up in your opening seven-card hand somewhat, by putting extra copies of the card in your deck, but you can not absolutely control what cards will land where in the game, unless cheating occurs. But let's ignore cheating, this is (or will be, as soon as I'm done ranting) a Tier list. The order of the cards in your deck is uncontrolable, and therefore, the Tier list can not be "official", persay, because of the random aspects of the game.
First, a look at the biggest contenders for this year's World title:
Blaziken/Rayquaza/(Team Aqua's Manectric)
Blaziken/Exeggutor
Blaziken/Ninetales
Swampert/Suicune
Walrein/Milotic
Gardevoir
Sceptile/ex/Muk ex
Shiftry/Furret/Delcatty or Milotic
Metagross/Furret/Gorebyss or Milotic
Crobat/Gorebyss
Exploud/Wobbuffet
I'm sure I forgot some decks, and I apologize to those of you who play them. These are the ones that came to mind after about like 30 seconds. I'm kind of in a rush while writing this, so excuse any mistakes I make.
About these decks, I will not list all of them in the Tier list. These are just some options to ponder when making yours, or thinking about what you'll see at Worlds, or whatever else you might do with it. (Like anybody will post here anyway) Tier lists are not my idea, I don't know who came up with them, but they've been around a looong time. I'm not the "end-all, say-all" in this business, but I'm here to contribute, here's to hoping all of you will too.
Without further ranting...my Tier list for the 2004 World Championship!
Tier 1:
Shiftry/Furret/Delcatty or Milotic:
It covers its weaknesses too well to be ignored. Milotic for Blaziken, Shiftry for Gardevoir, and an onslaught of disruption like Shaman and Shiftry's first attack. With the new Rare Candy ruling, it gains a lot more power, enough to put it at the top of Tier 1. This deck is deadly, plain and simple. There isn't much to say except to watch out for it, it's fast, but not powerful enough to overcome a quick setup from a deck like Blaziken, since Milotic takes too long to power up too keep up with the constant energy cycling ability of Blaziken. But Blaziken got "hated" out of the format, so Shiftry reigns supreme.
Metagross/Furret/Gorebyss or Milotic:
Like Shiftry, this deck covers its weaknesses very well. Metagross for Gardevoir, and Milotic only adds to the healing that the metal energy provides for Metagross, as well as be a very important part of defeating Blaziken. Gorebyss has its strong points, like a free retreat cost, which is great synergy with Metagross's power, Metal Juncture, and the Nurse/Switch combo that is so powerful but hard to pull off. However, this deck can do it with ease, and with the new ruling, T2 Metagross is easy to achieve, and you won't be vulnerable to Rock TM either. Wally's Training first turn, evolve into Metagross the next. Its only real weakness is Blaziken. What else is there to stop it? Shiftry, perhaps, which is why this deck gets the number two spot.
Walrein/Milotic:
It's weak to metal, so Metagross stomps it. I've seen this deck do great things in great hands, but it isn't played by an abundance of people, the deck is has a huge problem with, Metagross, will never give the deck a snowball's chance. Milotic attacking is the way to go, but Milotic's downfall is that it removes damage counters from the opponent when it attacks. Since Metagross uses metal energy to reduce the damage in the first place, a fast Metagross gets a guaranteed 3 points when playing one of these decks. It won't get too far with an opponent like that. Aside from the fact that Metal destroys it, this deck is one of the best around.
Tier 2:
Swampert/Suicune:
You can't beat the classics, and this deck is classic. It handles mirrors nicely with Magneton, and the energy manipulation that Swampert, Suicune, Delcatty and Magneton all work together to create is astounding. However, this deck is very tight on space because of its three evolution lines. It's hard to play, and hard to win with. However, its advantage over Blaziken gives it the right to be up here. It conserves energy and allows for quick deck manipulation because of Magneton's resourcefulness, so it can keep up with the best of decks, faster than Walrein/Milotic, I imagine, so it gets a place in Tier numba two! Swampert ex's type advantage over Shiftry and Metagross ex, the biggest hitters in two of today's most popular decks, makes this deck worthy of the top of this Tier.
Blaziken/Rayquaza/(Team Aqua's Manectric):
It's still the most powerful deck in the format. It can destroy Metagross, go steady with Shiftry, and lick Gardevoir. Water will be in heavy supply at Nationals, but Team Aqua's Manectric will be able to put a dent in that. Walrein/Milotic is probably this deck's biggest rival, but Swampert/Suicune is a close second. Those aren't the decks that are most heavily played with water in them though. Gorebyss is everywhere, and it would seem that it is enough to overpower Blaziken. However, TAM destroys Gorebyss. If a major Gorebyss swarm attacks, get your Rayquaza set up. Decks like Crobyss don't play a lot of Crystal Shard, usually none, 1 tops, and Rayquaza rips through Gorebyss with two fire and a lightning and a TAM on the bench. A fast enough Blaziken can virtually beat anything it's up against, but setting up is the problem.
Gardevoir:
Gardevoir is not worthy of tier 1. Not by a long shot. Blaziken stomps it, as do Shiftry and Metagross. It's an extremely tight-space deck, and putting in counter gyms to stop its deadliest nemesis, the psychic resistance, can hurt your drawing engine badly, putting you at a huge disadvantage against many other decks when you have a counter gym or two in there, but they're not being used. This deck had problems once the dust from HL had settled and the SC results came in.
Tier 3:
Crobat/Gorebyss:
I hate to admit it, but this deck has been put on the map. Several of these made Top 16 at Nationals, and my good friend David won the ECSC in 11-14 with Crobyss. I am still unconvinced, however, that it is ready for the spotlight. It has trouble recovering from bad setups because of its lack of heavy damage, and is very dependant on DRE because of its lack of energy manipulation. It needs to get those things in play fast, and if it gets unlucky and can't find them on time, the deck is toast.
Exploud/Wobbuffet:
Exploud is recognized, alongside Metagross, as the deck(s) that trample Gardevoir without a problem. Its ability to put a damage counter on all pokemon in play for just 1 energy card is unparalled so far, and it synergized well with cards that require setback, such as Pokemon Nurse and Mr. Briney's Compassion, to heal its massive 120 HP and lay that energy right back down. This deck had problems after it was released to the public, people figured out that KO'ing the Explouds in one shot was the easiest way to deal with things, so people used Rayquaza ex, strange as it seemed, to KO the Exploud. This strategy actually worked, and it lost a lot of power. With Milotic being able to heal the damage Exploud does, Exploud has less potential now than ever, which is why its tier rating it so low, but there is hope, so it barely nabs tier 3.
All feedback is accepted, negative or positive. Thanks to everybody who's posted so far.
~Wooper
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