Foreign language cards in 2010-2011 MD-on?

[ShadowCard]

To be more specific, what happens to the previous group? Think about your supply and demand. We, outside of Japan, are not the target group for the JPN company. They may have passive aggressively chosen to remind us of that. Don't those boxes say they aren't for sale outside of Japan?

Why is this persisting? Reasons behind why don't matter because no one wants to listen to the reasons why. All that matters is that it is happening. Like SD PokeMom already said, it is quite late to be arguing about it now.

 

[Sabett]

To be more specific, what happens to the previous group? Think about your supply and demand. We, outside of Japan, are not the target group for the JPN company. They may have passive aggressively chosen to remind us of that. Don't those boxes say they aren't for sale outside of Japan?

Why is this persisting? Reasons behind why don't matter because no one wants to listen to the reasons why. All that matters is that it is happening. Like SD PokeMom already said, it is quite late to be arguing about it now.

LOL you're the one that brought up the issue of japan wanting to sell cards to us or not, I'm pretty sure that selling more product is never bad for a company that sells pieces of cardboard with ink on them. Also if they were worried about the supply of their product, they wouldn't make random things like raichu prime so hard to get.

 

[ShadowCard]

I'm pretty sure that selling more product is never bad for a company that sells pieces of cardboard with ink on them.

You are pretty sure? Based on what?

When demand increases on an item, its price goes up. So, when the JPN players wonder why their cards cost more, the reason would be the foreign demand. The JPN company would be looking out for its primary costumers by reducing the foreign demand. We are not their primary consumers. If the rule came from JPN and not OP, they may care more about keeping the price of JPN cards in check because they don't want their primary costomers to be angry with them.

If you don't like that, you've still got the other theories, about how JPN cards cause problems at tournaments and that buying JPN cards hurts OP and league and tournament locations. You're the one who asked me why the JPN company wouldn't want us buying their cards. There's nothing left to argue about. The ship has sailed.

 

[User Name]

You are pretty sure? Based on what?

When demand increases on an item, its price goes up. So, when the JPN players wonder why their cards cost more, the reason would be the foreign demand. The JPN company would be looking out for its primary costumers by reducing the foreign demand. We are not their primary consumers. If the rule came from JPN and not OP, they may care more about keeping the price of JPN cards in check because they don't want their primary costomers to be angry with them.

If you don't like that, you've still got the other theories, about how JPN cards cause problems at tournaments and that buying JPN cards hurts OP and league and tournament locations. You're the one who asked me why the JPN company wouldn't want us buying their cards. There's nothing left to argue about. The ship has sailed.

selling more cards is better.. its not like...food or something where you have to first look that you own people have something to eat. (bad example but still i hope you get my point)

 

[DarthPika]

You are pretty sure? Based on what?

When demand increases on an item, its price goes up. So, when the JPN players wonder why their cards cost more, the reason would be the foreign demand. The JPN company would be looking out for its primary costumers by reducing the foreign demand. We are not their primary consumers. If the rule came from JPN and not OP, they may care more about keeping the price of JPN cards in check because they don't want their primary costomers to be angry with them.

If you don't like that, you've still got the other theories, about how JPN cards cause problems at tournaments and that buying JPN cards hurts OP and league and tournament locations. You're the one who asked me why the JPN company wouldn't want us buying their cards. There's nothing left to argue about. The ship has sailed.

So? They just print more. It's cardboard with a little bit of paint/foil. It cost them next to nothing compared to what they sell them for.

 

[pat460]

I;m surprised by how many people are still going about talking about how lucky the players were when they got the 10% rules. No they werent, they were terribly unlucky. The 10% rules was not OP being nice, it was them being slightly less greedy and unthoughtful. If anyone got lucky, it was OP in that the players effected by this for the most part still chose to play despite being forced to pay more for an inferior product, and being treated like saying anything against this change was inconsiderate to judges and event staff because of problems the foreign cards create.

BTW foreign cards dont create problems, stupid people using them do. A compliment person can use a completely foreign deck without any problems, its just that apparently some of the people using foreign cards werent competent enough for it.

 

[Cheater Hater]

(Note: This post is coming from someone who currently doesn't have direct investment in the game; however, I still want the game to succeed and thrive)

This whole debate comes down to two main questions with many answers:
1: What is the extent of this ruling?
2: Why does POP want this ruling?

1. There are three categories of reasons to use non-English cards:
A: You want to confuse your opponents--With the focus Pokemon has on SotG, this is most noticable, and the "official" reason for the banning (especially with the lower age groups).
B: Non-English cards are cheaper and/or higher quality than English cards--This appears from the outside to be POP's motivation for their bottom line. This issue correlates most directly to the extent of use of non-English cards.
C: You're from a region outside of the US, and don't want to purchase new cards--Ideally, this would be allowed, but if it was, it would be abused.
2. This is much simpler to answer: POP either wants to stop the confusion by abuse of foreign cards or improve their bottom line--more likely, POP wants one and didn't mind the other.

To solve this problem, more questions need to be asked, and we likely won't get these answers. The question I want answered most is "Why do Japanese cards cost so much less than English cards?" Is it because demand is so low in Japan? Consider this: if demand for Japanese cards is so much higher in the US than Japan, when this disappears, Japanese prices crater, as many people are predicting. The lower singles prices are, the less likely people are to buy packs. If people don't want to buy packs, TPC in Japan may decide to not produce the game anymore, or produce it at a less-frequent pace. Of course, if TPC stops making the Pokemon TCG, the game will likely die (excluding the outside chance of POP making the game, which would make the point moot). Therefore, Japanese sales do effect POP, even if in an indirect fashion.

The other part is something I certainly can't answer (being away from the game for over a year, and never at the top tables), but others likely can: "How much of the game was affected by the confusion?" Were 8-year olds bringing fully-Japanese decks to exploit those not familiar with a CardDex? Did a well-known master break the format with some never-played tech, but tried to disguise it with foreign cards? Were the six most expensive cards in half the decks always Japanese? My opinion is that, at least for the Masters Division, the confusion is being over-exaggerated, especially with the 10% rule. At an event with significant stakes, players should be familiar with most of the cards being played--it's their responsibility as part of being prepared.

Even though I don't have a full picture of the situation, I still want to offer my opinion of a solution. I don't know if there's a mandated policy about making the age groups exactly equal, but if there isn't, foreign cards should still be banned in Juniors and Seniors, while the 10% rule should be kept in Masters. That is the simplest answer I can come up with that satisfies most people equally (excluding crazy solutions like TPC and POP becoming unified, which is the ultimate solution to this problem). Unfortunately, POP would rather please most people and leave a (vocal) minority angry than give an "acceptable" solution to everyone.

(P.S: I hope this isn't a long, uninformed wall of text that does more harm than good, I just wanted to give the opinion of a relative outsider with no stock in the situation)

 

[ShadowCard]

Did a well-known master break the format with some never-played tech, but tried to disguise it with foreign cards?

Wasn't there a problem with a Dusknoir in a high level event?

There are some factors contributing to players seeing few problems resulting from Japanese cards:
1) The number of people who use them is relatively low compared to the entire event.
However, what happens when usage increases? Could the ban be a preemptive strike?
2) The staff of the event know how to contain a problem.
However, wouldn't those efforts be better spent in other areas of the event?
3) Problems are usually not advertised.
It's not like judges come on to PokeGym and report on the day's infractions.

 

[Cheater Hater]

Wasn't there a problem with a Dusknoir in a high level event?

Actually, I think I do remember that--that's why the CardDex should be available, whether in the hands of the player or the judges.

There are some factors contributing to players seeing few problems resulting from Japanese cards:
1) The number of people who use them is relatively low compared to the entire event.
However, what happens when usage increases? Could the ban be a preemptive strike?
2) The staff of the event know how to contain a problem.
However, wouldn't those efforts be better spent in other areas of the event?
3) Problems are usually not advertised.
It's not like judges come on to PokeGym and report on the day's infractions.

1: Almost no cases are severe enough to warrant a preemptive strike. POP could contain the problem by updating the documents more frequently (say, with every set release, or quarterly)
2. The answer to this problem is, quite simply, more staff. The problem is that the rewards for judging are insignificant compared to the possible rewards for playing (at least that's what I remember).
3. Why can't problems be advertised? What's wrong with a judge at States or Regionals writing an article saying "At my tournament we had zero decklist errors, amazing for such a big event--however, we had lots of people violate the 10% rule, and here's how not to violate it" (not the most lively example, but these aren't the most exciting problems :wink.

 

[SD PokeMom]

i'm not even sure where to begin to reply to this mass of misinformation...[

Wasn't there a problem with a Dusknoir in a high level event?

Actually, I think I do remember that--that's why the CardDex should be available, whether in the hands of the player or the judges.

um...the 'problem' with the dusknoir at the 'high level event' (...worlds 2008) was a player who had the card out on the table as a 'translation'...WITHOUT having the card in his deck, therefore affecting his opponents' play decisions. and nevermind the fact that said player LIED to multiple judges throughout the tournament...myself included...about the card being his 'translation' when asked...

1: Almost no cases are severe enough to warrant a preemptive strike. POP could contain the problem by updating the documents more frequently (say, with every set release, or quarterly)

um...the card-dex IS, and has been, updated with every set release...

2. The answer to this problem is, quite simply, more staff. The problem is that the rewards for judging are insignificant compared to the possible rewards for playing (at least that's what I remember).

the answer to the 'problem' is NOT 'more staff'; why should OP and/or individual TOs have to find...and compensate...extra staff at every single event in order for said admitted 'small number of players' to use foreign language cards?

3. Why can't problems be advertised? What's wrong with a judge at States or Regionals writing an article saying "At my tournament we had zero decklist errors, amazing for such a big event--however, we had lots of people violate the 10% rule, and here's how not to violate it" (not the most lively example, but these aren't the most exciting problems :wink.

what makes you think that problems aren't discussed among judges/TOs? believe me, they are...but on the TPCi judge/TO eyes-only boards.

'mom

 

[ShadowCard]

Sorry, SD PokeMom, I was confused about the Dusknoir.

Cheater Hater, my examples were reasons that players do not hear about problems with JPN cards. They are not a list of problems against JPN cards for debating against.

I never said that problems can't be advertised. Any judge could say "hey, there's been a lot of problems with Spiritomb at tournaments, please make sure you guys play it correctly." Keep in mind that staff have responsibilities after the event too. Coming onto Pokegym and typing up a report of problems is really low-level priority. That'd be like asking every player at a tournament to do a tournament report. Not to mention that PokeGym is not the center of the universe. Not all judges hang out here.

 

[DarthPika]

Speaking of Spiritomb, I've seen FAR more problems with that card alone than entire decks full of jpn cards. They really didn't cause all that much trouble.

The dusknoir incident? Ban the player, move on. Don't punish the rest of us for the stupidity of someone else.

As for all the "it makes deck check harder". How? If someone shows up and doesn't have translations (I've had that happens once when I left them at home. Needless to say, they just told me that I needed to find a translation, replace the card, or don't play), or has over 6 jpn cards, JUST TURN THEM AWAY. Seriously, an illegal deck is well... illegal. What's the difference in telling people that they can't use the old rotated cards that they put in their decks, or that they can't use 5 rare candy, or that while it may be awesome, you can't use 4 Luxray, and 4 Luxray lv.x since they're technically the same card. etc...

Please, tell me how this is any different?

 

[jaws_is_ra]

Does the No foreign cards Rule care over to Leagues also or is it just for Tournaments

I have a few JP cards I love using at the league

 

[pat460]

Does the No foreign cards Rule care over to Leagues also or is it just for Tournaments

I have a few JP cards I love using at the league

Depends on you leader. Technically it does effect league but some leaders let their players use foreign cards if they want.

 

[ShadowCard]

The dusknoir incident? Ban the player, move on. Don't punish the rest of us for the stupidity of someone else.

Would you like us to remember this opinion when you mess up?

Please, tell me how this is any different?

DarthPika, you are in college. Figure it out. I really don't want to type it out again when you are unwilling to listen and just want to argue. I suppose you could come find me and ask me in person. Take that you don't know of the problems as a sign of how good the staff of the events you attend are at containing the problems.

 

[Cheater Hater]

(Note: I'm really worried I bit off way more than I could chew by entering this discussion--I'm clearly a player on the outside.)

Now to respond to the points in relative order:

Dusknoir: An obvious misremembering/misunderstanding--a player lying to judges has no relevance to foreign cards. As much as I don't want to dig a deeper hole for myself, this problem is eliminated if we put the CardDex in the hands of the judges and not the players.

Documents: I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough here--I was referring to the Tournament Rules and Penalty Guidelines, which still are only updated every year as far as I can tell.

Number of Judges: Again, I have no clue how many judges are currently used for a high-level event, what they are used for, or how they are compensated. This has appeared to cause a stir, so I'll drop it.

Judge's Discussion: I know a lot of these issues are complicated because of having to go through Japan, but transparency is a good thing. I'm not saying to open up the Judge forum, but getting an indication of progress, no matter how small, is a good thing--this would also go along with updating the Tournament Rules/Penalty Guidelines more often.

Pokegym: If Pokegym isn't the center of the American Pokemon TCG universe, what is? Certainly not the OP site--I was surprised to find coverage of events there when I looked, and there's nothing regarding regular content--just the most pressing errata and high level tournament information (including the tournament documents). The Pokegym has the Compendium--even if it's just a collection of the rulings, they aren't on the official site in most cases (at least not outside the private forum). Somewhere needs to be the center--why not Pokegym?

Shadowcard: I'm sorry I jumped all over your list of points--after lurking this discussion for over a year (I still follow the game, even if I don't actively play it), I needed to try really hard to contain my thoughts on the issue, and the followup was more heavy-handed than my initial reply. (also notice that the longer the post, the less emotional are the arguments :smile

 

[Hikari_Netto]

Does the No foreign cards Rule care over to Leagues also or is it just for Tournaments

I have a few JP cards I love using at the league

I can't see why they wouldn't be allowed at league. Regardless of whether or not they can be used in a premier event, they're still official cards. I'm assuming most LLs will place them in the same boat as WC cards now.

 

[Scipio]

I do love it that this has been coming since March 2009 and now, in August 2010, its still being whined and complained about, mostly by people who ASSUMED MD/LA/SF would be rotated out, whereas others seem to have no problem with it anymore.
You could've seen it coming, all of you. The judges will be relieved about this rule .Deck check with foreign cards is made harder because...well look at it like this:
I (Judge A) am checking a deck with no foreign cards. Judge B is checking the exact same deck, but with a bunch of Japanese cards. Both of us have the same knowledge about the cards as the other does. Who will be finished first? Here's a hint. It ain't gonna be Judge A. "You have a translation for this one? And for this one? And for this one? And for this one? -rereads all of them- Alright, seems to be in order..." This takes TIME, and I bet you that those who whined about this rule would whine about how long they have to wait and would whine about less prizes if more was invested in staff.

 

[Skitty]

1. There are three categories of reasons to use non-English cards:
A: You want to confuse your opponents--With the focus Pokemon has on SotG, this is most noticable, and the "official" reason for the banning (especially with the lower age groups).
B: Non-English cards are cheaper and/or higher quality than English cards--This appears from the outside to be POP's motivation for their bottom line. This issue correlates most directly to the extent of use of non-English cards.
C: You're from a region outside of the US, and don't want to purchase new cards--Ideally, this would be allowed, but if it was, it would be abused.
2. This is much simpler to answer: POP either wants to stop the confusion by abuse of foreign cards or improve their bottom line--more likely, POP wants one and didn't mind the other.

You missed a very important reason. Though it wasn't as commen.

4. They want to use Japanese promos because they are worth more. To make their deck even more expensive.

Take these for example. Japanese promo Luxray GL is about $50. Japanese promo Cyrus is about $20. Japanese promo Poketurn is about $10. The list goes on.
That was my reason for doing it. But now I'm forced to use a cheaper and less expensive version of my deck - being all foil/reverse-foil.

I can't see why they wouldn't be allowed at league. Regardless of whether or not they can be used in a premier event, they're still official cards. I'm assuming most LLs will place them in the same boat as WC cards now.

Exactly. Alot of Leagues I've been to even allow print-outs as proxies. At leased using Japanese cards supports the game and is a better option than proxies. And I agree that they should count the same as WC cards.

 

[SD PokeMom]

there has been at least one occasion where the tourney rules/penalty guidelines has been updated midway through a tourney year because the change couldn't wait. but as a rule of thumb, they are only updated at the beginning of a new season.

i'm not sure what you're getting at by saying 'put the carddex in the hands of the judges not the players'. are you saying that translations should be supplied FOR...as in, printed out onsite...the players, instead of having them responsible for having printed them out themselves from the official site? or that 'godbooks' should be available for use?

if so: i strongly disagree. there's almost nothing i hate more when trying to get all the registration slips entered into the computer than player(s) coming up to me and demanding card-dex printouts. it costs me, the TO both time...in having to stop what i'm supposed to be doing, getting everyone entered into TOM so the tournament can start...AND money, as it's my paper, toner and wear-and-tear on my laserprinter.

it is the player's responsibility to have their own translations, and all too often too many of them failed at even that simple task. compare that to the japanese players in the main event at worlds, who all had small binders with printouts of english-language images of the important cards in their decks for their opponents' immediate reference. having to reference a 'godbook' takes time, adding to the round turnaround time, and requiring time extensions.

as a judge and TO i'll be glad to see the foreign-language cards go.

jmho
'mom