Head Judge Banning Coins

[ShadowCard]

I don't care either way. But when someone asks me not to use something that is legal just because they don't like it then i will use it.

You do know that dice are within the guidelines too, right?

If the opponent asks you to use another randomizer and you refuse, I would find that extremely suspicious. If you alternate coins, okay, but if you stick to that one coin, there is a problem.

 

[Cyrus]

I was at the same tournament as the one mentioned by OP, and in 8+ years of playing in Nintendo tournaments, this was only the second time I've had to use a mandatory randomizer.

It's nice to use the randomizers that you bring with you, and rules are rules; however, extenuating circumstances could be enough to justify an exception to those rules. I can't think of any extenuating circumstance that'd justify banning legal coins, but banning certain dice makes sense.

At any rate, more context is useful.

 

[FunnyBear]

Personally, the player making the request doesn't really have any grounds to be offend when their opponent sticks to their right.

I could ask everyone that plays me to give me $100 too, but it's dumb for me to be offended if they don't want to do that.
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Keyword - reasonable. Give me $100 is not reasonable, but use another randomizer that I am more comfortable is

 

[Ditto]

No but if you dont flip the coin enough times it will not count and you will have to reflip and reflip and reflip and reflip and reflip. Just use a die and roll once and have it be over.

The same thing can be said about dice. You have to roll it a certain way for it to count. Your argument is invalid. And it's irrelevant to this conversation.

You do know that dice are within the guidelines too, right?

If the opponent asks you to use another randomizer and you refuse, I would find that extremely suspicious. If you alternate coins, okay, but if you stick to that one coin, there is a problem.

Again, you CAN NOT force a player to switch coins to use a die. You CAN have a judge declare a die unusable. That's the rules.

No one should ever request a player change coins so there's never a time when you should be suspicious.
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[ShadowCard]

Again, you CAN NOT force a player to switch coins to use a die. You CAN have a judge declare a die unusable. That's the rules.

No one should ever request a player change coins so there's never a time when you should be suspicious.
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Didn't they do it at Nats, ask a player in Top 2 Seniors to change coins?

By refusing to change to a different coin, you are casting suspicion on yourself. Maybe the judge cannot force you to change your randomizer, but there are other penalties. Procedural error, for delaying the tournament because you are trying to prove a point; or Slow play, if your use of coins is eating up the round clock if you are using effects that flip a lot of coins (Darmanitan, for example); unsportsmanlike conduct, for trying to justify using the one single coin over any others as if there is something special about it.

 

[Ditto]

Didn't they do it at Nats, ask a player in Top 2 Seniors to change coins?

By refusing to change to a different coin, you are casting suspicion on yourself. Maybe the judge cannot force you to change your randomizer, but there are other penalties. Procedural error, for delaying the tournament because you are trying to prove a point; or Slow play, if your use of coins is eating up the round clock if you are using effects that flip a lot of coins (Darmanitan, for example); unsportsmanlike conduct, for trying to justify using the one single coin over any others as if there is something special about it.

You don't have the right to make me use another coin, so there's no point in even asking. And it's definitely wrong to give me a penalty for using a coin when that's what you're SUPPOSED to use. Dice are a NICETY that pokemon has GRACIOUSLY allowed us to use instead of what's WRITTEN in the card.

Again, everyone seems to be missing the point. The point is that the rules say you can always use a coin. End of discussion. It's a fact. It's not a question.

The point of this is to let judges know that they have to allow players to use a coin. Hopefully this situation will never happen again.
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[ShadowCard]

it's definitely wrong to give me a penalty for using a coin when that's what you're SUPPOSED to use. Dice are a NICETY that pokemon has GRACIOUSLY allowed us to use...

Interesting. Where are you reading that in the Tournament Rules that coins take priority over dice? Or that dice are a courtesy extended to the players?

 

[Ditto]

Interesting. Where are you reading that in the Tournament Rules that coins take priority over dice? Or that dice are a courtesy extended to the players?

You can actually read it yourself on hundreds of pokemon cards.
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[ShadowCard]

You can actually read it yourself on hundreds of pokemon cards.
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I said Tournament Rules.

Ditto, what you are doing here is the exact definition of rules lawyering. The Rules allow it, but the judge can overrule it if he thinks there is something wrong with your coin.

 

[Ditto]

I said Tournament Rules.

Ditto, what you are doing here is the exact definition of rules lawyering. The Rules allow it, but the judge can overrule it if he thinks there is something wrong with your coin.

I know what you said, and I answered what actually matters. Pokemon rules and card text take precedence over everything because they ARE the game.

I'm not rules lawyering, i'm pointing out how a judge BROKE the rules. Per the rules, a judge can not ban a coin.
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[bullados]

Per the rules, a judge can not ban a coin.
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Not true. The only coins that a Judge cannot ban are official Pokemon TPCi coins that have not been altered. They are also the only randomizers that a Judge cannot ban.

 

[Ditto]

Not true. The only coins that a Judge cannot ban are official Pokemon TPCi coins that have not been altered. They are also the only randomizers that a Judge cannot ban.

You're right. I made sure to point that out at the beginning of the thread but have been lax in my typing since then. Still an important point.
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[ShadowCard]

The only coins that a Judge cannot ban are official Pokemon TPCi coins that have not been altered.

Is banning a coin and disallowing the use of one on an individual basis the same thing?

I know what you said, and I answered what actually matters. Pokemon rules and card text take precedence over everything because they ARE the game.

No.

The Tournament Rules structure the game into a tournament environment, introducing new rules to the game, such as winning on time and tardiness, and making 40-card decks. The Tournament Rules do not give precedence to coins or dice. The idea that "the cards say _coins_" is a dead horse that really needs to stop being beaten.

When a player refuses to use a different coin, what is a judge to conclude about the coin?

 

[Ditto]

Is banning a coin and disallowing the use of one on an individual basis the same thing?

Yes.

No.

The Tournament Rules structure the game into a tournament environment, introducing new rules to the game, such as winning on time and tardiness, and making 40-card decks. The Tournament Rules do not give precedence to one.

When a player refuses to use a different coin, what is a judge to conclude about the coin?

The judge should conclude that the judge does not know the rules.

You're trolling now. The rules are the rules are the rules.
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[tutti]

If the judge suspects that a coin has been altered, that judge can ban that particular coin. The judge doesn't need to confirm with you that the coin has been altered.

Also, if you're playing slowly, you can't outright be denied the use of a coin, but you can be penalised for slow play, and you can be warned that this will happen if you keep playing with a coin.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

If the judge suspects that a coin has been altered, that judge can ban that particular coin. The judge doesn't need to confirm with you that the coin has been altered.

Um...I hope they'd alert a player that the coin they're using has been alerted, because otherwise they may be unintentionally cheating, and making the final result worse. I dunno maybe you just worded that wrong.

 

[mudkipmaster]

Wait...wait, I remember a thread in ask the rules team about this...http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111043

 

[TLesky]

I agree with Ditto, that an "official Pokemon coin that has been unaltered" is a legitimate randomizer, and when used correctly is ok. But the question that comes to my mind is based on the fact that you continue to say the head judge has no right to make you use another randomizer. If the head judge feels that your "official coin" has been altered; intentionally or perhaps just from the wear and tear of usage; doesnt he or she have the right to stop you from using said coin? I believe they do. Its hard for me to think that a judge at an event would have no right to stop a player from using a specific randomizer if they have reason to believe that it gives a player an unfair advantage. And lets look at this. Yes it true that "dice" arent printed on the cards, but are accepted as an alternative randomizer. Now if a judge feels that a players die has been altered, do they not also have the right to stop that player from using it? Whats the difference in which type of randomizer a player is using? If a judge feels that it is giving a player an unfair advantage, they can, and should stop them from using it.

Now dont get me wrong. If your coin is legit, I have no problem with you using it. But something as simple as the paint coming off on part of the coin could lead judges to at least consider the fact that your coin may be altered from its original state, and it turned may be weighted.

Unless a judge has real reason that any allowed randomizer has been altered, they should allow players to use them. But the fact still remains that the head judge does reserve the right to determine what is and what isnt allowed to be used as a randomizer, as long as they have a reason to back it up. And if a head judge passed down a decission, right or wrong, their word is final for that particular event.

 

[NoPoke]

I instructed a player at worlds last year not to use a specific plastic coin due to wear. The reason had nothing to do with the coin being unfair and everything to do with protecting the player from accusations of cheating and the event from accusations of favouritism.

 

[evil psyduck]

You do know that dice are within the guidelines too, right?

If the opponent asks you to use another randomizer and you refuse, I would find that extremely suspicious. If you alternate coins, okay, but if you stick to that one coin, there is a problem.

And you do know that coins are within the guidelines too right? If you use the same die i would find that suspicious. If you alternate die, okay, but if you stick to that one die, there is a problem. Why you ask? Because loaded dice are easier to conceal. And yes there are such things.