Head Judge Banning Coins

[Skitty]

And you do know that coins are within the guidelines too right? If you use the same die i would find that suspicious. If you alternate die, okay, but if you stick to that one die, there is a problem. Why you ask? Because loaded dice are easier to conceal. And yes there are such things.

I'm not backing-up ShadowCard posts but I would like to comment on the bold.

Loaded dice can be rigged but that's limited to that specific die. If you learn to rig a Pokemon coin then you can do it with basically any Pokemon coin.

And since this topic about randomisers was brought up again then I'll post my old story again. :thumb:
Back in Wizards days I was bored and had an official plastic Pokemon coin from one of the Japanese decks. I decided to flip it and called heads and tails alternatively while having the coin flip about 5 times in the air about 2 feet above the table. I called it right 154 times in a row before I got it wrong. Official coins are easy to "rig" if you take a good 2 hours of practice.

And another story. I was playing someone at Battle Roads last year and he was being kind of a jerk and didn't want me to roll my die for the randomiser because he "didn't trust dice". So instead of calling a judge and making an argument about the use of dice, I decided to use his official plastic coin instead. And I never got the wrong flip the whole game. So I guess I can still do it even after 8 or so years of not practicing. :lol:

 

[Mainejuggalo]

You are confusing the difference between "having a right" and "doing what is right". Acceding to reasonable requests to make other people comfortable is just good manners. Trying to make a point that you "have a right" is rude and is how you make enemies instead of friends.

Sounds like someone has control issues...

---------- Post added 03/12/2012 at 08:50 AM ----------

I completely have to agree with psyduck on this. If someone has an attitude toward me, or is being passive agressive, or just wants me to do it their way because they are more comfortable with it, I'm going to do the opposite of what they want. It's not rude, it's sticking up for yourself.

 

[Ditto]

I agree with Ditto, that an "official Pokemon coin that has been unaltered" is a legitimate randomizer, and when used correctly is ok. But the question that comes to my mind is based on the fact that you continue to say the head judge has no right to make you use another randomizer. If the head judge feels that your "official coin" has been altered; intentionally or perhaps just from the wear and tear of usage; doesnt he or she have the right to stop you from using said coin? I believe they do. Its hard for me to think that a judge at an event would have no right to stop a player from using a specific randomizer if they have reason to believe that it gives a player an unfair advantage. And lets look at this. Yes it true that "dice" arent printed on the cards, but are accepted as an alternative randomizer. Now if a judge feels that a players die has been altered, do they not also have the right to stop that player from using it? Whats the difference in which type of randomizer a player is using? If a judge feels that it is giving a player an unfair advantage, they can, and should stop them from using it.

Now dont get me wrong. If your coin is legit, I have no problem with you using it. But something as simple as the paint coming off on part of the coin could lead judges to at least consider the fact that your coin may be altered from its original state, and it turned may be weighted.

Unless a judge has real reason that any allowed randomizer has been altered, they should allow players to use them. But the fact still remains that the head judge does reserve the right to determine what is and what isnt allowed to be used as a randomizer, as long as they have a reason to back it up. And if a head judge passed down a decission, right or wrong, their word is final for that particular event.

Certainly if a specific coin has been altered, then the rules clearly state that the coin can be ruled unusable. This thread is about a judge ruling that no coins of any kind can be used throughout the tournament.

I'm not backing-up ShadowCard posts but I would like to comment on the bold.

Loaded dice can be rigged but that's limited to that specific die. If you learn to rig a Pokemon coin then you can do it with basically any Pokemon coin.

And since this topic about randomisers was brought up again then I'll post my old story again. :thumb:
Back in Wizards days I was bored and had an official plastic Pokemon coin from one of the Japanese decks. I decided to flip it and called heads and tails alternatively while having the coin flip about 5 times in the air about 2 feet above the table. I called it right 154 times in a row before I got it wrong. Official coins are easy to "rig" if you take a good 2 hours of practice.

And another story. I was playing someone at Battle Roads last year and he was being kind of a jerk and didn't want me to roll my die for the randomiser because he "didn't trust dice". So instead of calling a judge and making an argument about the use of dice, I decided to use his official plastic coin instead. And I never got the wrong flip the whole game. So I guess I can still do it even after 8 or so years of not practicing. :lol:

It is impossible to "rig" a coin. Physics says you can't do this.

Still off topic though, this thread has nothing to do with rigging dice or coins.

 

[bullados]

It is impossible to "rig" a coin. Physics says you can't do this.

Mechanical physics also says that if you perform the exact same action, you should get the exact same result.

 

[KazamBolt]

Didn't they do it at Nats, ask a player in Top 2 Seniors to change coins?

I can vouch for that. It was Dave Richard (who won), and I'm not sure exactly what happened, but it was something to that effect. I heard it personally from him.

 

[psychup2034]

It has been known in the field of statistics for decades that coin flipping is one of the easiest randomization methods to manipulate. There are machines that have been built to flip heads 100% of the time because the machine flips the exact same way with the exact same power every time.

It used to be thought that it takes a long time to practice getting "heads" with a coin, but more recently, scientists have found that it only takes people a few minutes to learn how to flip a coin in such a way that it consistently lands "heads" more than 50% of the time.

Clark is the joint author of a study into the art of tossing a coin that found that it is possible to control the outcome after just a few minutes' practice. The trick is not any specific technique but simply learning to toss consistently, and therefore predictably.

Most statisticians would laugh at the thought that a coin flip is hard to rig, because it's not.

It's a mystery why the Pokemon rules makers still allow the use of coins in tournaments. It could be nostalgia, or even stubbornness. Regardless of what the reason is, they seriously need to rethink the use of coins in Pokemon tournaments.

 

[ShadowCard]

Is banning a coin and disallowing the use of one on an individual basis the same thing?

Yes.

According to the post that mudkipmaster found, you are wrong. Individual coins can be disallowed without banning the whole class.

Do you really want a judge to thoroughly inspect your coin for damage? Your just arguing a point, but then if the judge actually thinks that there is something wrong with the coin, what defense do you have? The report on the unsporting conduct penalty is going to read something like "player insisted on using a damaged coin and tested the judge to find a problem with it."

I can vouch for that. It was Dave Richard (who won), and I'm not sure exactly what happened, but it was something to that effect. I heard it personally from him.

It was ruled that a different coin needed to be used? They did not just ask, right?

 

[Slev]

I think this topic is getting a lot of side points and deviating from its true intention.

From what Ditto has posted it appears that basically he just wants to state that Judges should not and cannot(At least from a rules standpoint) force an entire player base at a tournament to use a specific randomizer given out at the tournament if there are players that choose to use an official Pokemon TPCi coin that is unaltered.

 

[PokeMedic]

When I run my own events I'm insistent that players use dice for the fact that many of the players can't flip a coin to save their lives, and dice make it all that easier to prevent the whole "it didn't flip enough times" and "this coin is heavier on one side" and "I read on PokeGym that coins can be manipulated". Avoid that mess before it even comes up. If they can use a coin correctly and both players don't have go go complaining that the airflow through the room rotated the coin to land on heads, just like the flipper of the coin planned in his master scheme to get to the top-cut, then I can rest easy.

 

[evil psyduck]

When I run my own events I'm insistent that players use dice for the fact that many of the players can't flip a coin to save their lives, and dice make it all that easier to prevent the whole "it didn't flip enough times" and "this coin is heavier on one side" and "I read on PokeGym that coins can be manipulated". Avoid that mess before it even comes up.

Be insistent all you want but coins are legal and allowed. Unless of course they are damaged enough to affect to outcome.

 

[PokePop]

I've stayed out of this discussion on purpose, but things are getting a wee bit heated and people are arguing "stands" rather than paying attention to the points and the actual game rules.

1. According to the floor rules, Pokemon Theme Deck coins released since Pokemon took over the franchise are to be considered legal unless damaged. Not "legal unless I don't like them". Not "legal unless I think people can flip heads with them all the time". Not "legal unless I am supplying dice that I want everyone to use".

2. Regarding the point about dice being an accommodation: Yes. They are. Stating that they are covered in the floor rules does not contradict that point. Their mention in the floor rules IS the accommodation. "Coins" are specifically mentioned on the cards and in the game literature, not "dice" and not "randomizers". Japan did not use dice until they learned it from us at Worlds. I remember the first few years having to spend time educating the Japanese players and staff on how to properly use dice as a H/T randomizer.

3. While a player was requested/instructed to use a die instead of a coin at one Nationals/Worlds match, don't take that as confirmation that it is OK for a HJ to mandate that ALL players in their event must only use dice.

4. When Pokemon supplied dice to be used at large events for a few years, the rule was that if you were going to use a die as randomizer, you must use their die. However, if you wished to use a coin, you certainly could do that. They have stopped providing dice at major events, however you will notice that the rules for legal dice for randomization now reflect the attributes of the dice that they had provided: translucent/transparent and rounded edges. This is not an accident. Pokemon OP has made a point of never banning coins as a whole because Pokemon Japan would be rather ticked off at them if they were to change/remove a basic game rule. Head Judges that decide to tick off Japan are far braver than I am and take a much bigger risk in their continuing to be a Head Judge than I would ever take!

 

[tutti]

Um...I hope they'd alert a player that the coin they're using has been alerted, because otherwise they may be unintentionally cheating, and making the final result worse. I dunno maybe you just worded that wrong.

Hah, yes I did. What I meant was, they don't need you to agree that the coin is rigged.

 

[Ditto]

Thank you pokepop, that's all I was trying to confirm. I really hope judges pay attention to this.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[TLesky]

Certainly if a specific coin has been altered, then the rules clearly state that the coin can be ruled unusable. This thread is about a judge ruling that no coins of any kind can be used throughout the tournament.



It is impossible to "rig" a coin. Physics says you can't do this.

Still off topic though, this thread has nothing to do with rigging dice or coins.

That is fair enough. The way your story and debate were coming acrossed was that the judge had no right to tell you you could not use a specific coin. The judge does reserve that right, but doesnt have the right to stop anyone from using official coins in general.

I will agree though, that if a coin is causing issues, like the examples given above about young players having trouble flipping a coin and thus causing time problems, then a judge can step in and change things. This would have to be a rather extreme example, but I have watched young children struggle to get the minimum flip requirement, and have to flip over and over. At this point, I believe that the judge can and should step in and do something. The players opponent should not have to suffer through "little Johnny" flipping a coin over and over just to get a legitimate flip, and thus chewing up signifcant time on the clock.

 

[ShadowCard]

2. Regarding the point about dice being an accommodation: Yes. They are. Stating that they are covered in the floor rules does not contradict that point.

Two questions:

1) Does that mean that coins win if there is a dispute about whether to use a dice or a coin?

2) If a player cannot flip a coin reliably (as in the coin bounces into other table areas or off the table a lot, not that the fairness of the flip is questioned) but wants to use a coin when the opponent or judge asks the player to use dice instead (because the card says "coin" and coins are legal), does the coin win because dice are an "accommodation" or can the judge say dice must be used?

 

[Ditto]

According to the post that mudkipmaster found, you are wrong. Individual coins can be disallowed without banning the whole class.

You asked about banning a coin or disallowing a coin. Singular, so it's the same. Mudkip was about coins (plural).

Does that mean that coins win if there is a dispute about whether to use a dice or a coin?

If a player cannot flip a coin reliably (as in the coin bounces into other table areas or off the table a lot, not that the fairness of the flip is questioned) but wants to use a coin when the opponent or judge asks the player to use dice instead (because the card says "coin" and coins are legal), does the coin win because dice are an "accommodation" or can the judge say dice must be used?

Yes, even if a player is having trouble flipping a coin they can always use it (assuming it's an official coin and non modified and all that jazz).

Now a judge can still issue stalling penalties if the player is flipping off the table on purpose, but the coin can still be used.

 

[NoPoke]

..... but on whether a judge is ever allowed to ban the use of an official pokemon coin for ANY reason.

The floor rules clearly say that you can ALWAYS use an official pokemon coin ....

Not for ANY reason, so the first statement is fine but not that instructive.

There is no ALWAYS in the floor rules. There is a difference between "should be considered fair" and should ALWAYS be considered fair. With the latter de-emphasing the over-arching requirement of fun, fair, honest, respectful,sporting play which is rule #1 from that same document.

I much preferred this from you...

This thread is about a judge ruling that no coins of any kind can be used throughout the tournament.

which is in all probability an error by said judge.

 

[ShadowCard]

(assuming it's an official coin and non modified and all that jazz).

"all that jazz," yes :wink:. It is safe to say that any mention of coin in this thread is relating to an official pokemon coin, right? I'm not talking about currency, and you haven't either, right?

Ditto, your opinion is appreciated but I need to hear an answer from someone higher up, like PokePop. It affects a different ruling opinion, relating to if coins win over dice, I received some time ago on the OP forums, where the answer I got was "double game loss," among other ideas.

---------- Post added 03/13/2012 at 02:36 PM ----------

Now a judge can still issue stalling penalties if the player is flipping off the table on purpose, but the coin can still be used.

Couldn't it be a slow play penalty instead of stalling? "Slow play" in the guidelines does not mean stalling. It means the player is playing outside of acceptable time constraints. It would also mean the judge doesn't have to make a determination about whether the player is intentionally trying to manipulate the clock through bad flipping skill or if the player is trying to assert that a judge cannot make him use dice, for whatever reason. (and yes, Ditto, I welcome your opinion on this question :wink

 

[PokePop]

Two questions:

1) Does that mean that coins win if there is a dispute about whether to use a dice or a coin?

2) If a player cannot flip a coin reliably (as in the coin bounces into other table areas or off the table a lot, not that the fairness of the flip is questioned) but wants to use a coin when the opponent or judge asks the player to use dice instead (because the card says "coin" and coins are legal), does the coin win because dice are an "accommodation" or can the judge say dice must be used?

1. No. It doesn't mean that. It is merely a statement on the origin of why we are allowed to use dice.

2. There are a couple of ways to handle this. One is to mandate to the customer what randomizer they must use. This will generally cause upset of the player (undesired with younger players) and takes you outside of the floor rules, a place you want to only go when you have to.
Alternately, you can inform the player that you will allow them to continue to use a coin, but that since they have been having problems controlling it and have been offered an option that would eliminate that problem (which is affecting the game play and their opponent), that if they have more issues with flipping the coin properly again, you will be forced to give them a penalty (I'm not going to look up the best one right now, but something about it affecting the flow of the tournament and/or taking too long to make game actions) which will escalate each time they have that problem. Then offer them the dice again.

 

[Ditto]

Couldn't it be a slow play penalty instead of stalling? "Slow play" in the guidelines does not mean stalling. It means the player is playing outside of acceptable time constraints. It would also mean the judge doesn't have to make a determination about whether the player is intentionally trying to manipulate the clock through bad flipping skill or if the player is trying to assert that a judge cannot make him use dice, for whatever reason. (and yes, Ditto, I welcome your opinion on this question :wink

Certainly it could be slow play, instead of stalling, if that's what the player is doing. Basically what pokepop said is what I was getting at, I just used stalling as the example. Whatever penalty is appropriate for pace of play (if that's the issue).