ryanvergel
New Member
I wonder if they have the same errors as you, too. lol
:X
:X
Is the Pokemon TCG dying?
- Thread starter Psychoflood
- Start date
- Status
elekid_957
New Member
that would be a LOT for states haha. last year it was a box and 300$ to go to natz, i dont think they'll just give a free trip and 200 more $..
but hopefully it will be better this year, and they'll announce nats soon. i really dont see pokemon dying..
OOOHHH! That's just mean! But funny!
But there are some typos in mine (people keep sending corrections to me). I should check to see if they have the same ones.
Psychoflood
New Member
A few more points I'd like to make:
A few people have used the reason that they're promoting/printing/planning the next few sets, however are these sets not already made in Japan? The cards are already made, the translations are not that difficult, and printing costs aren't as high as the income they would generate by selling the new set. OP isn't the only thing that sells Pokemon cards. There is no Organized Play for sports cards, yet collectors still purchase them by the box. Parents will still buy the cards for their kids who enjoy the show, and people who still want to play the game will also purchase cards.
Furthermore, Japanese Organized Play isn't what we're discussing here. Of course future sets will be announced, the Pokemon market has, is, and always will be stronger in Japan than it is here in America.
I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just trying to get input on what i believe is a very serious concern.
A few people have used the reason that they're promoting/printing/planning the next few sets, however are these sets not already made in Japan? The cards are already made, the translations are not that difficult, and printing costs aren't as high as the income they would generate by selling the new set. OP isn't the only thing that sells Pokemon cards. There is no Organized Play for sports cards, yet collectors still purchase them by the box. Parents will still buy the cards for their kids who enjoy the show, and people who still want to play the game will also purchase cards.
Furthermore, Japanese Organized Play isn't what we're discussing here. Of course future sets will be announced, the Pokemon market has, is, and always will be stronger in Japan than it is here in America.
I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just trying to get input on what i believe is a very serious concern.
Pokemon Trainer Char
New Member
You bring up a lot of good points and its true that all of those things have occurred but its honestly too early to tell if anything of the sort is going to happen. I don't see a reason why the TCG or OP would be coming to an end. Pokemon is a cash cow regardless of whether its the cards, video games, or TV Show. Thats 3 different fronts that it has endeavored in. I don't see it failing, but rather succeeding and growing with each passing year.
If Pokemon OP were to die off I would be very surprised and if it did I would imagine something new would spring up.
If Pokemon OP were to die off I would be very surprised and if it did I would imagine something new would spring up.
ashinto
Active Member
i wasn't at states, i was just guessing...(actually, this is my first time playing in a states for 'bout 2 years...i'm just guessing prizes)
Psychoflood seems to think that organized play is unprofitable, based on the assumption that if it were making money for them, they would give out more prizes. It's not that simple. In my years of observing the game, I've come to believe that TPCI wants to have the best players play their game. However, "best" in this case does not mean the most skilled players money can buy, but instead the most friendly, honorable players of any major TCG (I've heard from both players and people who organize other games how much this impresses them). These people in many cases act as ambassadors of the game to the general population, and I believe TPCI tries very hard to create an OP system that favors these types of players.
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I;m still newish to the Pokemon TCG, but I've been around plenty of games that have flopped and floundered so I'll kick in two cents.
1. I saw it mentioned one or two times, but the economy IS in a recession/depression(I don't follow often enough to know which of the two.) During a time with an unemployment rate over 9% (relatively high) we lose money that is set aside for leisure. This is the first TCG where I haven't bought a box for the sake of having some trade bait/extras for the kids at league.
2. As far as I've found OP is free. Yes we pay for prereleases, but the cost is basically the MSRP or less for the packs so no real complaint. To pay nothing to play in events and then say prizes is low kind of kills it for me. Yes you make the investment initially in product to participate in OP which directly helps the company. Mind you the cost of a pack does need to go towards the cost of running the company so one 3.50$ booster isn't directly 3.50$ into the company. There is plenty of claim of the secondary market looking good, but again that only profits the company what is spent on packs and boxes to acquire the cards in the first place.
3. Being in the dark about a big upcoming event. Here is one possibility-
-Problems with acquiring a suitable venue. What the previous venue was open, but this year it was to change. They pass bidding on the last venue to acquire a new one. Costs or scheduling constraints keep another venue from being available and the original venue was already obtained.
While I am trying to be optimistic I was on the judge/"professor"/company end of several TCGs where you were held to silence of discussion, but the problems weren't as black and white as players would make it out to be. Is it a possibility the game is dying? SURE! Is it likely? WHO KNOWS! It would be great if TCPi could speak freely of everything so everyone knows everything, but it often doesn't work that way. When you stop hearing news of Japan's Pokemon group's progress then worry about America's. Should Nintendo America feel they can't continue with Pokemon it is a possibility that a new company would handle America's distribution.
Again if you want to count yourself out by all means go ahead. However until there is an official ending announcement I'll be one to follow the game.
1. I saw it mentioned one or two times, but the economy IS in a recession/depression(I don't follow often enough to know which of the two.) During a time with an unemployment rate over 9% (relatively high) we lose money that is set aside for leisure. This is the first TCG where I haven't bought a box for the sake of having some trade bait/extras for the kids at league.
2. As far as I've found OP is free. Yes we pay for prereleases, but the cost is basically the MSRP or less for the packs so no real complaint. To pay nothing to play in events and then say prizes is low kind of kills it for me. Yes you make the investment initially in product to participate in OP which directly helps the company. Mind you the cost of a pack does need to go towards the cost of running the company so one 3.50$ booster isn't directly 3.50$ into the company. There is plenty of claim of the secondary market looking good, but again that only profits the company what is spent on packs and boxes to acquire the cards in the first place.
3. Being in the dark about a big upcoming event. Here is one possibility-
-Problems with acquiring a suitable venue. What the previous venue was open, but this year it was to change. They pass bidding on the last venue to acquire a new one. Costs or scheduling constraints keep another venue from being available and the original venue was already obtained.
While I am trying to be optimistic I was on the judge/"professor"/company end of several TCGs where you were held to silence of discussion, but the problems weren't as black and white as players would make it out to be. Is it a possibility the game is dying? SURE! Is it likely? WHO KNOWS! It would be great if TCPi could speak freely of everything so everyone knows everything, but it often doesn't work that way. When you stop hearing news of Japan's Pokemon group's progress then worry about America's. Should Nintendo America feel they can't continue with Pokemon it is a possibility that a new company would handle America's distribution.
Again if you want to count yourself out by all means go ahead. However until there is an official ending announcement I'll be one to follow the game.
bullados
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?
I don't know what everybody else has seen as far as attendance in this game, but I've seen a pretty consistent 25-30% player growth every single year since PCI took over across pretty much all tournament levels that I can track easily (States, Regionals, Nationals). If nothing else, it'd be idiotic to cut OP after this insane amount of growth that appears to be continuing even through the biggest recession since the 1980s at the least.
Also, the list of OP-growing stuff that PCI has attempted this year alone. The change in League play to allow casual players a chance to get competitive level cards. The new POP ID cards that don't look like a credit card application. The new website which will be awesome once it actually works. The hiring of a new OP manager after moving the old OP manager over to a new section of OP. All of this tells me that this is basically a transition year in many ways. Considering the insane amount of good that PCI has done over the last 5 years, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for this transition.
Also, the list of OP-growing stuff that PCI has attempted this year alone. The change in League play to allow casual players a chance to get competitive level cards. The new POP ID cards that don't look like a credit card application. The new website which will be awesome once it actually works. The hiring of a new OP manager after moving the old OP manager over to a new section of OP. All of this tells me that this is basically a transition year in many ways. Considering the insane amount of good that PCI has done over the last 5 years, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for this transition.
Well, I've been collecting pokemanz on and off since kindergarden ( I'm in the 8 grade) and started playing TCG for last year so I don't really have anything to compare it to but to adress some of your points
1. Pre-realeses are supposed to be fun events, a look at the upcoming set. A box is equal to winning like 15 BRs. That isn't how it's supposed to be. They shouldn't be that competitive.
2. Times are tough. It isn't surprising that pops budget is cut.
Unfortunitly, you have some good points. VERY good points.
1. Pre-realeses are supposed to be fun events, a look at the upcoming set. A box is equal to winning like 15 BRs. That isn't how it's supposed to be. They shouldn't be that competitive.
2. Times are tough. It isn't surprising that pops budget is cut.
Unfortunitly, you have some good points. VERY good points.
You have good point in tiny type there. I would certainly like to see outward signs of budget growth (and there may be some I can't see). However, when you start a business, you usually try to have enough budget to make it through 3 - 5 years without a profit. Early on, you'll proportionately spend more per sale, than at the end of the time. It could just be that this was the plan all along.
About the VG & TCG together. The VG players out number us at least 10 to one. The idea, by giving the VG players mostly TCG prizes (with the occasional DS skin... Rival LOL!) seems to be to get some of them to pick up the TCG.
Bro, put on your suit and your tie and think harder in a more business-man manner about this. It seems to me like you're just fragged about the Nats delay & as a competitive player, I don't blame you! But don't lose your rationality.
I was going to refute your point about NO evidence, but Kayle ninja'd me. There are other links we could give, but 'nuf said.
Aside from a flashy user interface, this TCG database and its search criteria (and their grouping) look all too familiar to me.
Hmm, have I seen POP bring up features/content with an eerie resemblance to other websites before? *counts on one hand, then the other* So, yah join the club -- its all their property and anything we've got is theirs. The card db is also familiar to those of us that use the JPN site.
So, a cat that is new to PKMN TCG has one rational explanation.
And all those people who were at TPCi doing insane amounts of good are still there at TPCi still hard at doing the same things! Oh, I'm sorry, they decided to create a VG event department and promoted a guy internally and replaced him. Instead, I'll let that excellent move be the exception that proves my statement that they aren't reducing OP events or eliminating Nats, but rather, expanding it.
Some of us have been at companies and actually been asked to shut down operations, including letting people go and/or taking down functions one by one. I know one member of the staff here who 'turned out the lights' after a two year turn down of his division. We're not seeing any of those kind of signs here with TPCi. None.
If you're upset about POP not releasing the Nationals date, say so. Post some reasons why that is hurting you! Don't make up pipe dreams!
Look, what do you think POP cares about more, the fact that YOU the players are impacted by the problem (or plan) they have with Nats or, that "OH NOES some guys are posting we're going out of business!"??? I'll venture a guess that 1) they care VERY much about how the lateness of arrangements is impacting you and 2) they don't give a rip what someone posts about what he heard from a someone who heard from someone he knows.
That's accepted wisdom, in the general case, but in this case, where's your proof? Where is any shred of evidence other than claims that Nats isn't even in view anywhere on their website this year
, and that someone heard from someone who heard from someone that would know. Puh-lease, that's National Enquirer stuff. I know, you saw Men-in-Black...
OK, I'm out of this thread. I don't disrespect your feelings guys, but the evidence for the proposition of this thread is just so weak. On to better stuff.
i've been through several 'dying game' scenarios: from the previous incarnation of pokémon with wizards of the coast, and every game i wizo'd for on the 'tween' areas of the old wizards.community.
despite the current difficulties, i'm not seeing anything here with our game anywhere near what i saw there with harry potter, duelmasters, starsisters, hecatomb, et al....
jmho.
'mom
despite the current difficulties, i'm not seeing anything here with our game anywhere near what i saw there with harry potter, duelmasters, starsisters, hecatomb, et al....
jmho.
'mom
Diaz
New Member
"I'm not a businessman, I'm a business, man.
Let me handle my buisness, damn!"
I've already said I don't think the game is dying, but the fact that it's coming up in such a compelling manner is alarming.
If this is just another "sky is falling" thread, ignore it and let it die. You imply its a non-issue, but then argue the heck out of it. "Me thinks thou dost protest too much!"
ChaosJim
Member
Psychoflood has a legitimate concern. I wanted to chime in on two points.
1) Pokemon is doing well, why would they cut OP?
If OP isn't the reason Pokemon is doing well, its a bad business decision to keep it going. I don't think the original poster was saying that Pokemon will cease to exist, or even be popular. The concern is about the health and longevity of the organized play branch of Pokemon. Transitioning Mike Liesik to the video game could have been done before any potential problems (especially if there aren't any!). Independent of what lies ahead, moving an effective, well liked person within the company, who has a great deal of experience with the brand, into a fledgling program is top notch.
2) Venue difficulties.
I've worked planning conferences before (CAACURH, No Frills), and I've seen the planning process to bigger conferences (Alpha Phi Omega National Convention). While some of those were bigger than Pokemon US Nationals and some were smaller, they both required really early planning. Also there is a list of things that the venues for each of those must have. That list no doubt was refined over time, but PUSA hasn't had to select a location for Nationals very frequently, Origins did the trick for a number of years. Finding a venue is difficult, but I don't imagine it is more difficult than finding a Worlds venue. As time passes, I imagine finding a venue grows even more difficult, and I wish Pokemon the best in resolving their Nationals location. I remember one of the issues with Nats last year being that we only had one vendor because it presented a logistical concern. I hope that is something that is improved for this year's nats, whenever we hear about it.
I think a difference I notice between Pokemon and Magic, is that Magic somehow became such a big deal that ESPN2 covered their big events. I find Pokemon that exciting, especially at the top level of competition (US Nationals, Worlds, top tables last round of the Grinder). I think Pokemon, as organized play, hasn't made that leap from something that happens, to something people can't ignore. Hopefully as the dust settles on this one, that is the result.
1) Pokemon is doing well, why would they cut OP?
If OP isn't the reason Pokemon is doing well, its a bad business decision to keep it going. I don't think the original poster was saying that Pokemon will cease to exist, or even be popular. The concern is about the health and longevity of the organized play branch of Pokemon. Transitioning Mike Liesik to the video game could have been done before any potential problems (especially if there aren't any!). Independent of what lies ahead, moving an effective, well liked person within the company, who has a great deal of experience with the brand, into a fledgling program is top notch.
2) Venue difficulties.
I've worked planning conferences before (CAACURH, No Frills), and I've seen the planning process to bigger conferences (Alpha Phi Omega National Convention). While some of those were bigger than Pokemon US Nationals and some were smaller, they both required really early planning. Also there is a list of things that the venues for each of those must have. That list no doubt was refined over time, but PUSA hasn't had to select a location for Nationals very frequently, Origins did the trick for a number of years. Finding a venue is difficult, but I don't imagine it is more difficult than finding a Worlds venue. As time passes, I imagine finding a venue grows even more difficult, and I wish Pokemon the best in resolving their Nationals location. I remember one of the issues with Nats last year being that we only had one vendor because it presented a logistical concern. I hope that is something that is improved for this year's nats, whenever we hear about it.
I think a difference I notice between Pokemon and Magic, is that Magic somehow became such a big deal that ESPN2 covered their big events. I find Pokemon that exciting, especially at the top level of competition (US Nationals, Worlds, top tables last round of the Grinder). I think Pokemon, as organized play, hasn't made that leap from something that happens, to something people can't ignore. Hopefully as the dust settles on this one, that is the result.
Gowk
New Member
Everyone sites the growth of the game, few have cited any potentiality difficulty accommodating that with a new space for Nats.
I feel that the game is at the point that is is a living creature and no matter what is going to bounce back (to some degree)
The arguments made are fair, but the worry about the date/rating/etc. needs to be taken with a little salt.
I feel that the game is at the point that is is a living creature and no matter what is going to bounce back (to some degree)
The arguments made are fair, but the worry about the date/rating/etc. needs to be taken with a little salt.
Gowk
New Member
Maybe well get lucky and get the funnies.
calisupra2nr
New Member
I can tell you all from what I see every quarter (for the past 5 quarters) in Nintendo's statement is that they are really trimming the fat to stay fit in this environment. Video game sales are down as an industry whole and Nintendo is staying at the head of the pack by doing business the old fashioned way: when revenues are down, costs must follow. Now does the video game division relate to TPCi or the TCG for that matter? Yes. Think of Nintendo as a big corporate soup kitchen with each of their umbrella companies as people in line for the soup. Will there be as much soup in your bowl if the bowl your getting it from is lower than usual? The answer is no.
There is a lot of capital budgeting going on with each different cash flow and what this all boils down to is this: Every piece of literature and information from the business side of Nintendo shows that TPCi and the TCG specifically, provide a great stream of revenue when other areas are hurting (such as casual video game sales). So no way will they kill this off...not while people like me own their stock.
There is a lot of capital budgeting going on with each different cash flow and what this all boils down to is this: Every piece of literature and information from the business side of Nintendo shows that TPCi and the TCG specifically, provide a great stream of revenue when other areas are hurting (such as casual video game sales). So no way will they kill this off...not while people like me own their stock.
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Bellythief
New Member
We'll get the News, with a big, bolded headline;
'Pokémon TcG 'GAME OVER''
Joking aside, There's honestly little to no chance that Pokémon will fail.
Harry Potter didn't ever really ever take off, now did it? That's just unfair to use as a reference in a situation like this.
I think if Pokémon TcG was going under, There would be a third Base Set Reprint series or something equivalent, Then again, though, I've no idea what I'm talking about. I've just rejoined playing Pokémon after nearly six years. :wink:
bullados
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?
Here's another thing I've noticed. I'm not sure if this contention that OP budgets staying the same is actually true or not. I mean, yes, there hasn't been any growth in prizes in the US, and there might be some shrinking in prizes in this country. But I think that's balanced and possibly exceeded by several different things.
The first is an expansion in the number of events played over the last 5 years. I think there were something like over 200 Prereleases run during the last cycle, and there will likely be more this time around just given the set they're promoting. There were more Cities this year than I think I've ever seen before. The total number of BRs have increased almost every cycle.
The second is the insane player growth. I know that four years ago a 50 player local tournament was virtually unheard of. I ran a 53 player tournament in the middle of nowhere and got a giant collective yawn from the TOs around me because my tournament was the runt of the litter. I recently Judged a 125 person Cities (that would've had more if the venue were bigger), and then played in a 90+ person City the next day. I still remember getting second in a 50-person Worlds Qualifier, and thinking that was a pretty darn big event. I also remember Judging a 99 person Regionals and thinking THAT was pretty big, until I saw Oregon and Texas nearly quintuple that number this year, and all three of the "local" Regionals double or more that number this year.
The third is the redistribution of prizes that's been happening recently. And it's a trend I really like. The last two years, PCI started handing out door prizes to the various TOs to be used at their leisure. Some have consolidated those prizes into the top players. Others (like myself and most TOs I know) have spread the wealth as much as possible, especially to the Junior division. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of these various items (hats, playmats, binders, etc) was equal to or greater than the booster pack prizes that we used to get. And I know that many of my players are happier to get these door prizes than they were with the booster packs, mostly because most of them already got a ton of boosters already and have no real need of more.
The forth, and probably biggest, is the expansion and reorganization of international OP outside of the US and Japan. I still remember Lia's incessant (and well-founded) rants about the state of international OP a couple of years ago. I don't see those anymore, and I don't really see any international rants about the state of the game over there. That tells me that something has improved. I think it's an expansion and reorganization of OP in the various countries, such as England which is being run by a Concerned Player instead of an LD.
Pulling all of this together, I think that OP has been expanding over the last few years. It's just that the player base has exploded beyond all hopes of any financially conservative company (consistent 25-30% annual growth over a 5 year period? I've never heard of any company in any industry that has done that!), and that our insane growth has masked the growth in OP.
In short, no. The Pokemon TCG is not dying. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
The first is an expansion in the number of events played over the last 5 years. I think there were something like over 200 Prereleases run during the last cycle, and there will likely be more this time around just given the set they're promoting. There were more Cities this year than I think I've ever seen before. The total number of BRs have increased almost every cycle.
The second is the insane player growth. I know that four years ago a 50 player local tournament was virtually unheard of. I ran a 53 player tournament in the middle of nowhere and got a giant collective yawn from the TOs around me because my tournament was the runt of the litter. I recently Judged a 125 person Cities (that would've had more if the venue were bigger), and then played in a 90+ person City the next day. I still remember getting second in a 50-person Worlds Qualifier, and thinking that was a pretty darn big event. I also remember Judging a 99 person Regionals and thinking THAT was pretty big, until I saw Oregon and Texas nearly quintuple that number this year, and all three of the "local" Regionals double or more that number this year.
The third is the redistribution of prizes that's been happening recently. And it's a trend I really like. The last two years, PCI started handing out door prizes to the various TOs to be used at their leisure. Some have consolidated those prizes into the top players. Others (like myself and most TOs I know) have spread the wealth as much as possible, especially to the Junior division. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of these various items (hats, playmats, binders, etc) was equal to or greater than the booster pack prizes that we used to get. And I know that many of my players are happier to get these door prizes than they were with the booster packs, mostly because most of them already got a ton of boosters already and have no real need of more.
The forth, and probably biggest, is the expansion and reorganization of international OP outside of the US and Japan. I still remember Lia's incessant (and well-founded) rants about the state of international OP a couple of years ago. I don't see those anymore, and I don't really see any international rants about the state of the game over there. That tells me that something has improved. I think it's an expansion and reorganization of OP in the various countries, such as England which is being run by a Concerned Player instead of an LD.
Pulling all of this together, I think that OP has been expanding over the last few years. It's just that the player base has exploded beyond all hopes of any financially conservative company (consistent 25-30% annual growth over a 5 year period? I've never heard of any company in any industry that has done that!), and that our insane growth has masked the growth in OP.
In short, no. The Pokemon TCG is not dying. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
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