Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

National's Coin Manipulation Issue

#3. This is what concerns me the most. I would like a randomizer to be provided on the tournament floor (even without a cup) to be the only official die to be used for flips. Jimmy Ballard did this at IL States 2010 with the souvenir die that was given to all players, and I would assume any player who objects would have something to hide. The problem I suspect is, this is the Japanese's game, and we're just playing it. If skilled coin flipping is an inherent part of the way they play the game, I don't know if whomever is in charge of organizing the Worlds tournament would prohibit them from playing that piece of the game.
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This is the most logical thing I would say, however I happen to remember at 2008 nationals we kept seeing dice disappear by other people who just wanted the "Free souvenir." If we could keep people from being vultures, this would be the best possible answer.
 
losjackal said:


#3. This is what concerns me the most. I would like a randomizer to be provided on the tournament floor (even without a cup) to be the only official die to be used for flips. Jimmy Ballard did this at IL States 2010 with the souvenir die that was given to all players, and I would assume any player who objects would have something to hide. The problem I suspect is, this is the Japanese's game, and we're just playing it. If skilled coin flipping is an inherent part of the way they play the game, I don't know if whomever is in charge of organizing the Worlds tournament would prohibit them from playing that piece of the game.
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This was done at Nationals when it was still being held at Origins. It was a clear purple die that was required to be used for coin flips in the game. I'm unsure as to exactly why that was stopped the following year, but I know a lot of the dice ended up missing throughout the tournament. It may very well be something that has to be done next year. And the judge teams did discuss that possibility. I'd like to see it happen myself.
 
This seems an unlikely solution that'll happen but couldn't you have the judges put 1 coin on each tables (all the same) and make everyone use that coin only for dertmining flips? this way people cannot practice with the coin they are given?

-edit seems like similiar ideas just been posted before me when i remenbered to press 'post'
 
Naki Feralkin said:
This is the most logical thing I would say, however I happen to remember at 2008 nationals we kept seeing dice disappear by other people who just wanted the "Free souvenir." If we could keep people from being vultures, this would be the best possible answer.
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*Looks in dice box*

I recall a certain boyfriend stealing one of these that year, and it ended up with my dice after the tournament.........
 
As to #4 - it is not just heads vs tails but the desired flip - you may desire tails at certain times such as starting the game or keeping a baby asleep to stall.
 
^Commenting on that he only played 1 baby and when he did flip for it it was with the new coin and he got tails each time when the desired result was most likely heads. So I'd say because of his deck choice he was just trying to flip heads. A lot of players do call tails on the opening flip as well. I'm one.
 
With regards to dice disappearing, each player should get a die at the beginning of the day. When two players meet at a table, one of them is bound to still have one. If not, there should be enough surplus to supply a new one.

Personally, I don't care if the Japanese then go off and practice their die-rolling techniques in between rounds to try to develop a skill. There is enough stuff on the table to influence the roll, unlike a coin flipping in the air unobstructed until it lands. That's good enough in my opinion to deem it random.
 
I, personally, think that if you can flip a legal coin and get heads every time, good job!
Posted with Mobile style...
 
7.6.4. Cheating
Players who intentionally commit infractions are looking to gain an unfair advantage over other
players at the event. The Head Judge should carefully consider whether an infraction was
intentional or not before applying this penalty. If the Head Judge feels that an infraction was
unintentional, this penalty should not be applied.

Examples of Unsporting Conduct: Cheating include:
 Drawing extra cards.
 Taking cards from the discard pile and adding them to your hand or deck.
 Offering some form of compensation to an opponent for a concession.
 Altering match results after the conclusion of the match.
 Playing with marked cards.
 Lying to event staff.
 Arbitrarily adjusting the Special Conditions or damage counters put on any Pokémon in
play.
 Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.
 Attempting to manipulate a random result.
 Stacking your deck.

Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Disqualification
Tier 2: Disqualification
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Quoting the Official Penalty Guidelines "If the Head Judge feels that an infraction was unintentional, this penalty should not be applied". This IS the case in the senior finalist match. Jimmy did call Dave on his coin and the coin WAS replaced. No penalty was issued as the judge did not see this as being an infraction on any level and had just occurred because both players did not agree on the coin in question(From the ruling in section 17.5.1. of the Pokemon Tournament Rules)
17.5. Randomizers
Players are permitted to use two types of randomizers during a Pokémon TCG match: coins or
dice. Players are always permitted to use their opponent’s randomizer.
17.5.1. Coins
 Any coin released with any Pokémon TCG product from EX Ruby & Sapphire on
should be considered fair and impartial.
Any other coin (such as local currency) brought by a player to be used as a
randomizer must be approved by both players. Players should consider whether or
not the coin in question is light enough to not damage or mark cards it lands on and
whether or not heads or tails can be determine at a glance.
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The coin in question was from before EX Ruby & Sapphire and was approved by all players up until the finals(in the sense that he was not called on it). The information of a father teaching his sons about different ways to flip a coin could affect later rulings and/or penalties, but in no way should change anything that happened at the Pokemon National Championships. I'm not saying that it is right to manipulate a randomization, but what has happened is in the past and I don't think this discussion should be on what happened, but more on what P!P should do to monitor or improve their policies on these matters. On a final note, muscle memory and coin flipping techniques are not a new thing in the game, it has been a commonly practiced by Japanese players and multiple United States players. It is surprising to me that this is one of the first instances where this is being discussed as a controversy.
 
Perhaps because is has to do with how this supposed cheat functions? I'll be honest, if someone can learn to flip a coin for a desired result while following the TPC guidelines, I'd consider it at best unethical, but it is quite hard to rate this. The same people who in this thread are telling me its common, accepted practice in Japan have to accept that also implies that TPC is okay with it: if not they'd have fixed it by now! The cup/dice solution seems most simple.
 
It is not the first time that it has been discussed if you just search the Pokegym forums. However, this incident is current and admitted and still relevant.
 
LoTad said:
His father told several people and actually put it in writing that he taught his sons how to manipulate coin flips, and that they used what they learned in the tournament (within his written statement, he said that they can roll anywhere from sixty to seventy percent heads with their method.
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Where is this alleged written statment and more over why was it written (if it really was)?
 
Posted on OldPokes in response to someone wanting more info on the coin flipping rumors.

And HenryP...with friends like you, who needs enemies! And you commenting on this is absurd since you were the person teaching our kids at leage how to manipulate a dice roll.
 
HenryP said:
Quoting the Official Penalty Guidelines "If the Head Judge feels that an infraction was unintentional, this penalty should not be applied". This IS the case in the senior finalist match. Jimmy did call Dave on his coin and the coin WAS replaced. No penalty was issued as the judge did not see this as being an infraction on any level and had just occurred because both players did not agree on the coin in question(From the ruling in section 17.5.1. of the Pokemon Tournament Rules)

The coin in question was from before EX Ruby & Sapphire and was approved by all players up until the finals(in the sense that he was not called on it). The information of a father teaching his sons about different ways to flip a coin could affect later rulings and/or penalties, but in no way should change anything that happened at the Pokemon National Championships. I'm not saying that it is right to manipulate a randomization, but what has happened is in the past and I don't think this discussion should be on what happened, but more on what P!P should do to monitor or improve their policies on these matters. On a final note, muscle memory and coin flipping techniques are not a new thing in the game, it has been a commonly practiced by Japanese players and multiple United States players. It is surprising to me that this is one of the first instances where this is being discussed as a controversy.
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Although I strongly disagree with every point you made, I must say that this was a very well put-together post for a fourteen-year-old.

You are right, if manipulating the coin had been unintentional, no penalty should have been issued. It is very clear, however, that it was intentional. During the finals match, the father of the national champion told the head judge and a Pokemon Official that he and his sons had practiced flipping coins and that they had implemented their learned method in the tournament. I don't think that the judges could have had more proof that the national champion's tendency to flip very favorably was due to intentional manipulation of outcomes that were intended to be purely random. How much more proof can there be than an admission?

In the very last sentence of your post, it seems to me that you are trying to disperse the blame to a wider population of anonymous scapegoats -- sort of nullifying the importance of this specific event on the big picture, instead of recognizing and acknowledging that there is a clear example of an infraction right in front of us. It is such a controversy now because the infraction is so obvious, yet nothing is being done about it.
 
losjackal said:
[*]The fact that the Japanese do it, and our players will be facing them, so will that given them an unfair advantage

#3. This is what concerns me the most. I would like a randomizer to be provided on the tournament floor (even without a cup) to be the only official die to be used for flips. Jimmy Ballard did this at IL States 2010 with the souvenir die that was given to all players, and I would assume any player who objects would have something to hide. The problem I suspect is, this is the Japanese's game, and we're just playing it. If skilled coin flipping is an inherent part of the way they play the game, I don't know if whomever is in charge of organizing the Worlds tournament would prohibit them from playing that piece of the game.
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This is exactly why Magic TCG is so much more popular, and better run game than Pokemon. MTG isn't hamstrung by a company 3000 miles across the ocean, and the rules are are RULES, not guidlines like pokemon judges like to use as their excuse for not doing anything. Pokemon rules are so loosely interpreted, it's ridiculous.
 
Wow. Just wow.

I think the manipulation of coins is ridiculous. It should be HIGHLY frowned upon, and if all of the given information is true, i think the player and parents should have a stern talking to from TPCI. It makes people like me, who won nationals in the master division this year, look bad. I think the manipulation of any randomizer is just flat out wrong! This is a game, pokemon has the nicest community of them all, and we dont need cheating OR cheaters. I'm not accusing the accused party of cheating, because i know nothing of the topic.

I'm pretty good at flipping tails btw, when in doubt, send tyrogue out! xD

-Justin
 
As I said before, I don't think it is right or legal to manipulate a coin flip, but Dave is my friend and I was trying to defend him. I do agree with the original poster on this issue. As for "teaching our kids at leage how to manipulate a dice roll" it was VERY obvious that you were doing something before rolling the dice and was not going to be used in a tournament,, and if my close to 8 tails streak in game 5 against sneasel2 is any indicator, I did not use this at nationals
 
But you taught them that and they could have tried it and gotten DQ'd following your lead! Thank goodness they brought it to our attention and we were able to set them straight prior to the tourney.
I never said you used it during the tourney, just saying you led them to think cheating was ok.
Bad role model!
 
My friend taught it to me while I was in Maryland over the weekend and I showed it to Trey while at his house on Tuesday, I don't think he would try to use it, and he didn't. I don't think I showed anyone else, and if I did, sorry. I didn't try to have anyone use it,.
 
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