Even though you can do all that I'm sure you don't try to actually help the kid by teaching them the difference, maybe it won't change there mine, but at least you'll still be educating them on how a "proper" trade works, that same kid could come back to you and want to know more, then after a while you'll be looked as the type of person that knows how to handle things and is a help to the Pokemon community, other then someone that "when he can" takes advantage of someone.
Nationals new players/younger players (ripping)
- Thread starter PokeChump
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Even though you can do all that I'm sure you don't try to actually help the kid by teaching them the difference, maybe it won't change there mine, but at least you'll still be educating them on how a "proper" trade works, that same kid could come back to you and want to know more, then after a while you'll be looked as the type of person that knows how to handle things and is a help to the Pokemon community, other then someone that "when he can" takes advantage of someone.
grassmaster239
Active Member
I don't always take advantage of them.. Often times, I see the people at about every tournament. There are times when they have gotten the better deal, and times when the deal is fair. I am not saying that ripping people off is a great thing to do, but everyone has done it at least once.
I guess I can agree with you a tiny bit, but honestly, I don't think I've ever purposely ripped a kid/ new player off. There has been times where I traded someone and later on in the day they wanted to trade back, I don't have issues with it, means there not fully satisfied. Ripping someone off is not great nor good, it shouldn't be purposely done to anyone, specially kids that don't have knowledge of whats going on.
Wow, this thread is ridiculous. It really is.
Let's spell it out.
Treat someone like you would want to be treated. Don't take advantage of those with less knowledge than you. Regardless of age or background. It's called a sense of decency, and I'm pretty sure teaching a newer player the current value of a card would be much more in line with the SOTG than the selfish exploitation of their lack of knowledge.
Rationalize all you want with your technicalities and "exceptions", but do you really think this game will continue to grow if the experienced players, instead of helping, took advantage of the new players to the game? We were all new once.
Have some class.
Let's spell it out.
Treat someone like you would want to be treated. Don't take advantage of those with less knowledge than you. Regardless of age or background. It's called a sense of decency, and I'm pretty sure teaching a newer player the current value of a card would be much more in line with the SOTG than the selfish exploitation of their lack of knowledge.
Rationalize all you want with your technicalities and "exceptions", but do you really think this game will continue to grow if the experienced players, instead of helping, took advantage of the new players to the game? We were all new once.
Have some class.
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That's past, this is present and future, not going to debate what you did. It is about what your doing or trying to do.
---------- Post added 06/21/2011 at 02:26 AM ----------
It wasn't pointed at everyone, and the reason this is ridiculous is?
(I'm on your side)
the OP is great. It just amazes me how people, as stated by others already, will go to great lengths here to stand up for something that makes them look dishonorable.
that's all.
Swordfish1989
New Member
You're putting way too much emphasis on a kid's choice to play pokemon based on or not the value of trades they've gotten. Most of the kids you see getting into Pokemon aren't going to be there in their teen/adult years. Look at the number of people selling cards from Base Set-Team Rocket on ebay for the last decade because that's where they stopped as a kid. You know what will affect whether they stay with us or not?
1) Their parent's willingness to support the hobby. I'd say this is the #1 reason kids stop playing, the parents won't buy more cards or don't have the money to take them to tournaments
2) Kids grow up and find different interests. Does anyone remember what middle school was like? *shudder* In our league we lose good players in the 10-12 age range who quit because Pokemon isn't cool anymore and their friends are making fun of them.
Out of all the people I played Pokemon with when I was 10, I'm the only one left. I've made plenty of new friends since then, but out of all the people I played with back in the day, I'm all that's left. A lot of my friends didn't have enough money and their parents couldn't take them to big tournaments all the time, so they eventually quit. I was lucky that my dad took me to leagues/tournaments and bought me packs for birthdays and holidays. I can't name a single person who quit because they suddenly had an epiphany on the bad trades they had done because if it happens, it's incredibly rare.
And honestly, making assumptions about a person because of what they do or don't do when trading pokemon cards is rather immature, too. You're telling me you've never taken advantage of an opportunity, ever? Everyone who gets a steal on something on ebay should pay what the real market value for that item is? You can't compare theft to getting a good deal on a trade.. theft results in one person being sad, and one being happy. Kids aren't going to trade with you if the trade would make them unhappy. One man's trash is another's treasure. Under these assumptions, any card vendors (including some reputable ones on this very website) are doing unethical things because they're trading for profit.
I think we need to stop putting kids into such a protective bubble all the time. They don't learn that way; no one does. It's like when you're taking a math test and a question calls for the amount of dollars required and you forget to put the $ sign in your answer, even though it's right. When my professor/teacher marked that as wrong, I learned to pay attention and never made those mistakes again. When I was a kid and dropped my oldschool game boy on the floor and the screen cracked, and my dad wouldn't get me a new one, I learned to take better care of my things and I never had any incidents with any future game boys. When the kid gets ripped off and it affects their ability to get something they want, they'll learn to be more careful, and if their parents allow it/show them, will use good internet sources for price values. If you just casually tell a kid about values, they might use it for that one trade but they'll forget the next time. No lesson learned. And how are you ever going to expect a kid to look up the card values online on their own if they're always being protected by someone when trading? Why bother if the work's being done for them?
That's just my opinion on the subject anyway. I won't actively seek out kids/juniors when I'm at an event because I rather trade/talk to people my age, but if a kid comes up to me and offers me something ridiculous, I won't hesitate to accept it. If they're offering, they'll clearly be happy with it, and I think the odds are in my favor that the kid won't be playing the game in the future anyway; not because of me, but because of external reasons I cannot control. Their cards will be sitting in a shoebox in their attic like so many thousands of (now) adults who used to play.
1) Their parent's willingness to support the hobby. I'd say this is the #1 reason kids stop playing, the parents won't buy more cards or don't have the money to take them to tournaments
2) Kids grow up and find different interests. Does anyone remember what middle school was like? *shudder* In our league we lose good players in the 10-12 age range who quit because Pokemon isn't cool anymore and their friends are making fun of them.
Out of all the people I played Pokemon with when I was 10, I'm the only one left. I've made plenty of new friends since then, but out of all the people I played with back in the day, I'm all that's left. A lot of my friends didn't have enough money and their parents couldn't take them to big tournaments all the time, so they eventually quit. I was lucky that my dad took me to leagues/tournaments and bought me packs for birthdays and holidays. I can't name a single person who quit because they suddenly had an epiphany on the bad trades they had done because if it happens, it's incredibly rare.
And honestly, making assumptions about a person because of what they do or don't do when trading pokemon cards is rather immature, too. You're telling me you've never taken advantage of an opportunity, ever? Everyone who gets a steal on something on ebay should pay what the real market value for that item is? You can't compare theft to getting a good deal on a trade.. theft results in one person being sad, and one being happy. Kids aren't going to trade with you if the trade would make them unhappy. One man's trash is another's treasure. Under these assumptions, any card vendors (including some reputable ones on this very website) are doing unethical things because they're trading for profit.
I think we need to stop putting kids into such a protective bubble all the time. They don't learn that way; no one does. It's like when you're taking a math test and a question calls for the amount of dollars required and you forget to put the $ sign in your answer, even though it's right. When my professor/teacher marked that as wrong, I learned to pay attention and never made those mistakes again. When I was a kid and dropped my oldschool game boy on the floor and the screen cracked, and my dad wouldn't get me a new one, I learned to take better care of my things and I never had any incidents with any future game boys. When the kid gets ripped off and it affects their ability to get something they want, they'll learn to be more careful, and if their parents allow it/show them, will use good internet sources for price values. If you just casually tell a kid about values, they might use it for that one trade but they'll forget the next time. No lesson learned. And how are you ever going to expect a kid to look up the card values online on their own if they're always being protected by someone when trading? Why bother if the work's being done for them?
That's just my opinion on the subject anyway. I won't actively seek out kids/juniors when I'm at an event because I rather trade/talk to people my age, but if a kid comes up to me and offers me something ridiculous, I won't hesitate to accept it. If they're offering, they'll clearly be happy with it, and I think the odds are in my favor that the kid won't be playing the game in the future anyway; not because of me, but because of external reasons I cannot control. Their cards will be sitting in a shoebox in their attic like so many thousands of (now) adults who used to play.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
Both sides are happy for the moment. There's a fair chance that later in the day at Nationals, the kid will discover they were taken advantage of. Now one side is sad...doesn't that make it theft by your definition? But your other argument is lesson learned. But what did the kid learn? Some cards are more valuable than others (but not understanding why), trading is a lot less fun now, and the parent learned not to trust people at Nationals.
If a kid walks over to you and offers you a ridiculous deal offering their Pachirisu for your Tyranitar SF (or the non-prime!)....a rare for a rare is what they're seeing and seems fair to them. The least you could do is say "hey, can you believe your Pachirisu is worth more than my Tyranitar? Do you want some more of these other cards?" Pachi is $15 on T&T right now! Now one is suggesting you must trade to match that extraordinarily high value, but you can at least clue them in that there's more to factor in.
Lastly, much of your argument goes towards affording new cards. If you rip them off, you're actively contributing to them not being able to keep up.
If a kid walks over to you and offers you a ridiculous deal offering their Pachirisu for your Tyranitar SF (or the non-prime!)....a rare for a rare is what they're seeing and seems fair to them. The least you could do is say "hey, can you believe your Pachirisu is worth more than my Tyranitar? Do you want some more of these other cards?" Pachi is $15 on T&T right now! Now one is suggesting you must trade to match that extraordinarily high value, but you can at least clue them in that there's more to factor in.
Lastly, much of your argument goes towards affording new cards. If you rip them off, you're actively contributing to them not being able to keep up.
Oh thanks! Yea, it's kind of sad, but nothing will stop it. There will always have to be the certain people that take advantage of the ones that are at there weakest.
---------- Post added 06/21/2011 at 12:51 PM ----------
If they stop playing on there own power, then that's fine, but while there going to league/states/Nats where ever it may be, they shouldn't have certain people knowing "oh, a kid. If he/she asks for a trade I'm sure I'll rip him/her off" Given no thought to if he/she does ask for a trade and asks for something low standard to the high standard you want, maybe its right to let them know instead of taking for granted that MAYBE they will be happy with just having a card. Also I discussed something earlier about online trading with someone, now you're putting Ebay into the mix, yes there is times you can get a good deal on things, that is the auction, I'm sure kids don't run auctions on Ebay. The item is placed at a certain amount then bidded on until the time period is over, who ever has the highest amount paid is the winner, which Pokemon and kids isn't a auction, if you look at kids/new players like a auction then you should read some posts in this thread and see how people think about what you do, if you can't at least pass on some positive knowledge to the kid/new player, why would they want to stay in the game where people will easily take advantage of the fact no one has tried to teach them about the game and trading fairly?
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For one, this is not a argument, no where on this thread are people arguing, it is a debate, we have some that think its right, then most that think its wrong, everyone has there right to voice there opinions, and to your assumption "They'll feel wrong about it in the long run" where have you read or seen that? Read some of the posts from certain people, you think they feel bad? They enjoy it because they know they can easily get the better deal by a length to which its called "ripping".
Make who feel bad? Lost cause? Again read some of the posts, doesn't seem very lost to me. Who cares? You must care because you posted. If you don't have something to pertain to the topic of this thread please don't post because I don't want to go off topic. Thanks!!:lol:
Swordfish1989
New Member
I don't like quoting because it wastes thread-space, so I'm replying to the above poster (just clarifying now)
Look, I'm not what's going to keep the player base from going. I know you want to believe that I'm evil and am the cause of all of the disasters in the world, but I'm not even close to it. Saying bad trades are discouraging kids from playing Pokemon is like saying that eating a chocolate bar will cause heart disease. If kids stop playing Pokemon, or anything for that matter, you can thank their discouraging parents who rather see their kid have a 'real' hobby like soccer. Or their best friends in school who decide Bakugan (??) is the thing to do now. I can guarantee you that if you can get past a kid's short attention span and get the parents behind it, they'll stay longer.
Lostjackal, in your example, I wouldn't mind throwing in other rares/holos for the kid if they wanted anything else from me. I've given cards away before; just the other day I gave my 6 year old neighbor a ton of 'shiny' cards I had because I knew it would make him happy. But I've had plenty of times where a kid will look through all of my binders and only want 1 card, and they'll be happy with the trade they offered me. Even when I push them into trying to find something else they like, they still don't and are happy with the trade. And I have a lot of cards. In fact, if I know the kid's parent personally, I never trade with the kid unless the parent is ok with the trade (especially if the parent plays).
And in your example, if the kid did find out they got burnt, then they'll definetely be more careful about the next time they trade and they'll pay attention to values if it matters to them. You can't never let the kid 'lose' in fear that it will ruin his/her Pokemon experience. We don't let kids win at every sport they play in because we're scared that if they lose it will discourage them. And like I've said in the past, any times I've taken the time to talk to the kid about values in trades, they either don't care and will proceed with the trade anyway, or they'll use it for that trade and forget about it as soon as the next round starts. It's a useless exercise to me, so I don't bother anymore. I have younger cousins... whenever I try passing anything positive to them they'll just ignore it and do whatever they feel happiest doing.
As a kid, what I have the worst memories of are in-game cheaters and over-serious players who are mean to younger or newer players when they make mistakes during games. I've seen kids cry over that stuff but I've never seen a kid cry because of a bad trade. If you want to talk evil, then we should be targeting the people who will literally steal from kids when they're not looking, or cheat them in games because they don't know any better, or call a judge on them when they just made an honest mistake. If you want an analogy, these people are the true wolves of the game.. people who rip off kids in trades are just the nippy pomeranians.
And this is a fair question. If these kids are obviously dedicated enough to participate in an event like nationals and have parents who will travel great lenghts to bring their kids... how do they not know what stuff is worth?! I'm assuming that they must have some semblance of a good, consistent deck to convince a parent to go that far, so I would have to assume that either their parent knows the values or they do at least. They must've built the deck they have somehow. Or am I just being delusional here?
Look, I'm not what's going to keep the player base from going. I know you want to believe that I'm evil and am the cause of all of the disasters in the world, but I'm not even close to it. Saying bad trades are discouraging kids from playing Pokemon is like saying that eating a chocolate bar will cause heart disease. If kids stop playing Pokemon, or anything for that matter, you can thank their discouraging parents who rather see their kid have a 'real' hobby like soccer. Or their best friends in school who decide Bakugan (??) is the thing to do now. I can guarantee you that if you can get past a kid's short attention span and get the parents behind it, they'll stay longer.
Lostjackal, in your example, I wouldn't mind throwing in other rares/holos for the kid if they wanted anything else from me. I've given cards away before; just the other day I gave my 6 year old neighbor a ton of 'shiny' cards I had because I knew it would make him happy. But I've had plenty of times where a kid will look through all of my binders and only want 1 card, and they'll be happy with the trade they offered me. Even when I push them into trying to find something else they like, they still don't and are happy with the trade. And I have a lot of cards. In fact, if I know the kid's parent personally, I never trade with the kid unless the parent is ok with the trade (especially if the parent plays).
And in your example, if the kid did find out they got burnt, then they'll definetely be more careful about the next time they trade and they'll pay attention to values if it matters to them. You can't never let the kid 'lose' in fear that it will ruin his/her Pokemon experience. We don't let kids win at every sport they play in because we're scared that if they lose it will discourage them. And like I've said in the past, any times I've taken the time to talk to the kid about values in trades, they either don't care and will proceed with the trade anyway, or they'll use it for that trade and forget about it as soon as the next round starts. It's a useless exercise to me, so I don't bother anymore. I have younger cousins... whenever I try passing anything positive to them they'll just ignore it and do whatever they feel happiest doing.
As a kid, what I have the worst memories of are in-game cheaters and over-serious players who are mean to younger or newer players when they make mistakes during games. I've seen kids cry over that stuff but I've never seen a kid cry because of a bad trade. If you want to talk evil, then we should be targeting the people who will literally steal from kids when they're not looking, or cheat them in games because they don't know any better, or call a judge on them when they just made an honest mistake. If you want an analogy, these people are the true wolves of the game.. people who rip off kids in trades are just the nippy pomeranians.
And this is a fair question. If these kids are obviously dedicated enough to participate in an event like nationals and have parents who will travel great lenghts to bring their kids... how do they not know what stuff is worth?! I'm assuming that they must have some semblance of a good, consistent deck to convince a parent to go that far, so I would have to assume that either their parent knows the values or they do at least. They must've built the deck they have somehow. Or am I just being delusional here?
you're assuming that everyone travelled and there won't be any locals there at nats.
i know for a fact that there are local players from my own league who have never gone to a regionals or states (only 2 hours away!) that plan to play the LCQ, just because it's here in town.
i DO have to oversee trades at league with these jrs/srs, especially when trading with masters players...
jmho
'mom
i know for a fact that there are local players from my own league who have never gone to a regionals or states (only 2 hours away!) that plan to play the LCQ, just because it's here in town.
i DO have to oversee trades at league with these jrs/srs, especially when trading with masters players...
jmho
'mom
....delusional....
Swordfish1989
New Member
I always learned in my years of doing debate that it's so much easier to resort to ad-hominem attacks than it is to come up with good critique against another person's arguments. Too bad it doesn't get you any points.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
I'm genuinely glad to hear that you try to offer them more stuff. If they still just want the one card, then so be it. Once or twice I've been in that scenario, and I tell them that if they want to trade back later, I'll be okay with it.
Yes, they must have some idea. But there are so many cards with values that fluctuate, especially leading up to Nats, that it's impossible for the average person to know updated prices for most everything. For instance, I was surprised that Pachirisu is suddenly $15 instead of $7, and RDL pieces were $30 each instead of under $10. (Glad I didn't trade away my second set a couple of weeks ago!)
(and the follows "yous" aren't directed at you Swordfish1989, it's just a general statement)
The point is, if you encounter a potential trade where they don't know the true value of their cards, just give them a clue. If you're such a good trader, I'm sure you'll still be able to negotiate a good profit. It's the right thing to do.
If you're the kind of trader that is going to brag to your friends about how much you profited on any given trade, then you're not going to follow our advice no matter what we say. That's your prerogative. But if you insist that you truly don't see anything wrong with that, then I'm afraid you may have a bigger problem than just ripping off kids.
Yes, they must have some idea. But there are so many cards with values that fluctuate, especially leading up to Nats, that it's impossible for the average person to know updated prices for most everything. For instance, I was surprised that Pachirisu is suddenly $15 instead of $7, and RDL pieces were $30 each instead of under $10. (Glad I didn't trade away my second set a couple of weeks ago!)
(and the follows "yous" aren't directed at you Swordfish1989, it's just a general statement)
The point is, if you encounter a potential trade where they don't know the true value of their cards, just give them a clue. If you're such a good trader, I'm sure you'll still be able to negotiate a good profit. It's the right thing to do.
If you're the kind of trader that is going to brag to your friends about how much you profited on any given trade, then you're not going to follow our advice no matter what we say. That's your prerogative. But if you insist that you truly don't see anything wrong with that, then I'm afraid you may have a bigger problem than just ripping off kids.
Also at the end of the day, its really the parent's job to supervise their child and make sure they know what is happening with the cards that they originally paid for. I've seen some parents who are very engaged with Pokemon and watching to know what it is that their children get so excited over, then there are other parents who couldn't care less about the cards as long as their kid is happy and has a fun time. League leaders and TO's work hard to keep a balanced environment where everyone can have a good time, and from what I've read, players should be cautious about trying to make themselves the "trading police." A better idea would be to explain your concerns to the person organizing the event, or even talk to parents about your concerns directly.
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