Nationals new players/younger players (ripping)

[sToRm07]

I always learned in my years of doing debate that it's so much easier to resort to ad-hominem attacks than it is to come up with good critique against another person's arguments. Too bad it doesn't get you any points.

Forgive me for simplifying your wall of text in your previous post.

You asked if you were delusional and I simply replied. Not much to it.

But hey, it's the internet, and that is why I'm not going to try to defend honest play until I'm blue in the face.

Let's just move on and let karma do the work.

 

[lucario aura wielder]

i traded a kid rh copycat for pikachu bw he wanted it i wanted it fair trade ps if people go around monriting my trades youre rude and annoying and should stay in your own buisness

 

[PokeChump]

i traded a kid rh copycat for pikachu bw he wanted it i wanted it fair trade ps if people go around monriting my trades youre rude and annoying and should stay in your own buisness

rude, annoying, and stay in my own business, I can care less what anyone thinks about what I do, if I feel its right then I'll do it, if you have a problem with it that can be handled also. Before anything though, why would you get offended when you're the one trying to rip the kid/new player off and someone stopped you?

---------- Post added 06/21/2011 at 07:00 PM ----------

you're assuming that everyone travelled and there won't be any locals there at nats.

i know for a fact that there are local players from my own league who have never gone to a regionals or states (only 2 hours away!) that plan to play the LCQ, just because it's here in town.

i DO have to oversee trades at league with these jrs/srs, especially when trading with masters players...

jmho
'mom

I don't know where some of your post is directed.

---------- Post added 06/21/2011 at 07:18 PM ----------

Also at the end of the day, its really the parent's job to supervise their child and make sure they know what is happening with the cards that they originally paid for. I've seen some parents who are very engaged with Pokemon and watching to know what it is that their children get so excited over, then there are other parents who couldn't care less about the cards as long as their kid is happy and has a fun time. League leaders and TO's work hard to keep a balanced environment where everyone can have a good time, and from what I've read, players should be cautious about trying to make themselves the "trading police." A better idea would be to explain your concerns to the person organizing the event, or even talk to parents about your concerns directly.

True, you can factor in all that, but if the veteran players aren't willing to help on there own instead of voicing a opinion to other people and not directly what kind of impact do you make? League leaders already know, they watch for it I'm sure. No one is going to be "trading police" not everyone can chase around every trade to see whats going on, if I'm standing in the same area and can over see a trade by just nodding my head, then I don't see it as butting into a trade when I'm either talking to someone or trading myself. If the kid/new player is still happy with what they got after being told and knowing whats going on, what can I do? After that its pretty much what ever happens is going to happen. There is no shame in still trying to teach people the right and wrong way of certain things, not mainly pertaining to the kids on that part but the older people that should know better and know what there doing.

 

[FunnyBear]

.... I am willing to bet if you go up to a little kid and say you're getting ripped off 9 out of 10 times that kid will say he won't care or the older kid will say thats what he is agreeing to if he wants more cards i offered. No person tries to intentionally rip little kids off. It just happens because little kids don't really care about money.

Of course little kids don't care about money. They are not the ones making it and spending it. Their parents are. You behave like that, you may have to deal with an angry parent. And you'd better believe that parent will involve the Judges, TO, and your parents as well. Good luck with that.

 

[PokeChump]

Of course little kids don't care about money. They are not the ones making it and spending it. Their parents are. You behave like that, you may have to deal with an angry parent. And you'd better believe that parent will involve the Judges, TO, and your parents as well. Good luck with that.

Right, then after that 9 times out of 10, you'll be looked at as pretty much a swindler, who is going to actually try to trade with him/her?

 

[SD PokeMom]

um, i was addressing the poster above me, who was saying that since all the players were dedicated enough to travel to the big event, they should 'know' what cards were worth...

'mom

 

[FunnyBear]

I am not ripping them off. I am giving them a deal that they are happy with.. I see nothing wrong with that. They are happy. I made a profit. Everyone wins.

---------- Post added 06/20/2011 at 02:14 PM ----------

Yes, I can argue that. My business is my business. If they ask you what a card is worth, tell them, but it seams rude to go around butting into peoples trades. And is what I am doing any worse then what Trollandtoad does? no.... I have helped people out with decks before to. It depends on the kid. If it is some snobby kid, of course I won't help them, but I have helped out people with there decks before tournaments on more then one occasion.

I get that too. Although I, among others, approve trades at league, I'd hesitate before walking up to strangers at an event. If there is a big age difference, I might suggest to the adult that he get the kid's parent involved. I have no idea what you are talking about with Troll and Toad. They do not trade cards nor do they make ridiculous offers for the property of others.

 

[PokeChump]

um, i was addressing the poster above me, who was saying that since all the players were dedicated enough to travel to the big event, they should 'know' what cards were worth...

'mom

I was just wondering :smile: I agree with the post, didn't know who it was directed at, thanks for your post.

 

[grassmaster239]

um, i was addressing the poster above me, who was saying that since all the players were dedicated enough to travel to the big event, they should 'know' what cards were worth...

'mom

They should. If the kids don't know what cards are worth, and are traveling from far away, then they should know what cards are worth. If their parents can dish out $500 + for airline tickets + hotel etc, and not have their kids know what cards are worth, then obviously they have to much $$ on their hands..

 

[PokeChump]

They should. If the kids don't know what cards are worth, and are traveling from far away, then they should know what cards are worth. If their parents can dish out $500 + for airline tickets + hotel etc, and not have their kids know what cards are worth, then obviously they have to much $$ on their hands..

Your opinion is irrelevant, you think that IF the parents actually knew the "values" themselves then telling there children it would be better? Most parents have no interest in the game, but I'm sure if they found out there kids were being swindled by someone older that has way more knowledge then there child that wouldn't float so well with the parent. You've used so many excuses why "ripping" is a OK thing to do, its not, point/blank/period, you do it because without it you can't go anywhere in the game, quit trying to debate the fact that your doing wrong to the people that would most likely help you out in the Pokemon community if needed. You can say "I always help people" but that doesn't erase you're still taking advantage of a CHILD! Them being HAPPY or not you know what you're doing, and you don't bother trying to tell them what you know, if you know there Gengar Prime is 3x harder to get and has way more trade value/ play ability then the card they think looks cool you should be decent enough to at least tell them.

 

[SD PokeMom]

They should. If the kids don't know what cards are worth, and are traveling from far away, then they should know what cards are worth. If their parents can dish out $500 + for airline tickets + hotel etc, and not have their kids know what cards are worth, then obviously they have to much $$ on their hands..

um, did you even read my first post? i said not everyone TRAVELS to these large events, local players attend too...

'mom

 

[grassmaster239]

I know. But, many people do. Yes, I read it.

 

[InnoceNt]

Personally I can't stand it when people police trades, particularly when they don't know what they're talking about. At a BR this year, a lady felt the need to "help" a young trader who was trading with someone I knew by telling them their BW Pikachu was worth a ridiculous amount of money, and pretty much ruined someone's trade. Seriously, don't do it unless you actually know the value of the cards in question. Don't just assume every secret rare is worth more than than some T/S/S.

At league last weekend, A kid stated his Gengar Prime was worth $50, undoubtedly because he was misinformed by someone else.

-.-

 

[PokeChump]

Personally I can't stand it when people police trades, particularly when they don't know what they're talking about. At a BR this year, a lady felt the need to "help" a young trader who was trading with someone I knew by telling them their BW Pikachu was worth a ridiculous amount of money, and pretty much ruined someone's trade. Seriously, don't do it unless you actually know the value of the cards in question. Don't just assume every secret rare is worth more than than some T/S/S.

At league last weekend, A kid stated his Gengar Prime was worth $50, undoubtedly because he was misinformed by someone else.

-.-

I understand that, I would have never made this thread if I myself didn't know values, B/W Pikachu not worth to much, I've always valued it around 7-11 trading for and trading away. When most people I've tried to trade for Pika valued around 10-15, I try to stay at a lower point then most. My values don't go up or down on trading for or trading away UNLESS I've had the card for a bit and the price decided to lower or increase.

No one goes around and tries to "Police" every trade you do, maybe when you're trading a much younger player because they don't know as much as you, then someone has a right to see whats going on, if you and the person you're trading are at the same age and skill set pretty much why should someone care?

So far I have 2 B/W Pikachu! :lol: - the ones traded.

 

[Politoed666]

Politoed's short defense of making a profit:

1. I never force anyone into a trade. In addition, I almost always make the other party make the initial offer.
2. If someone is giving themselves the short end of the stick, I will add in a little something to make them extra happy.
3. If they feel satisfied with the trade, there really isn't a problem.
4. If they will never take advantage of a given card (say, their RH Collector) because they don't know what it is or don't play competitively, and will never sell it, there are two ways it could go: 1) The card sits in a binder until it rotates and is worth 50¢. 2) I trade for it and use it/sell it as it should be used/sold.
5. If they do find out that they got a slightly worse end of a deal, perhaps they won't be so hasty in the future.

Being ten is no excuse for being ignorant. I know plenty of kids who have at least a fundamental knowledge of the value of their cards, or at the very least who have enough sense to consult an adult about the deal.

 

[Swordfish1989]

um, i was addressing the poster above me, who was saying that since all the players were dedicated enough to travel to the big event, they should 'know' what cards were worth...

'mom

I don't think it's unfair for me to assume that if a kid is running multiple Magnezones, Emboars, Donphans, and Machamps in their decks, as well as Collectors, etc, that they know what the card is worth. They didn't just pull all of those cards - they had to have traded it or paid for the card (or their parents did). I know that locals will be there, but I think at least 50% of the players there will be from out of state considering the size of the event.

Whenever I went on ebay to get a card that I needed for my deck (when I was a kid), my dad would subtract the money I spent from my allowance. So I knew exactly how much something was worth. I sell a LOT on ebay and you'd be surprised how many people leave me feedback that says 'my son loved it!'.

I'll be brutally honest though.. when I trade, I trade for profit. I don't start my career (I love how fancy that sounds) until the middle of July so I have a lot of time on my hands. That means I spend a lot of time on ebay, looking at completed prices, watching what troll and toad does with their prices, etc, to the point where I have the value of all major cards in this format memorized, as well as general values for some older collectible cards. At league, whenever my friends are trading you can hear them calling me from across the room and giving me a list of cards for me to write down the prices for because they're trading someone lol. I also do a lot of speculation. Back in April I figured that Magnezones, Pachis, and Shaymins were all going to be big, so I hoarded them like crazy, trading for Magnezones valued at 15, shaymins at 3, and pachis at 5. In the last 2 weeks I've been selling all of them on ebay for humongous profit. I didn't expect RDL and Cleffas though.. missed the boat on those unfortunately. I'm a business-person at heart. It's what I got my degree in and where I'm going to work. I love taking advantage of 'market failures'. I do a LOT of research on card values, and if someone isn't up to date on their values, then that's unfortunate. I think this touches on what you were talking about lostjackal, with fluctuating prices, but I don't find myself in the wrong for trading for Pachis (for example) at a $5 value because the other person didn't take the time to look at what prices are now. It's not insider information; it's available to everyone. If I keep better track of it than someone else than I will reap that profit since I spent a lot of my time keeping up to date with the info and they didn't. To the victors go the spoils. This paragraph is more when trading with teens/adults by the way, before anyone throw me over a bridge.

As a note, parents can be pretty annoying sometimes. The other day, I was trying this kid at league for 2 Golbats. Just golbats, worth $.30 on troll and toad. I was offering him a holo/rare/reverse holo for them and his mom kept interjecting and it even annoyed her kid. They were two bleh uncommons! I ended up not trading him because it was too much of a pain.. ended up getting them from my league leader for $1.

As for karma.. my karmic universe is doing just fine. At battle roads, a player couldn't afford sleeves and was going to have to play without them so I bought him sleeves. I've paid for 2 different kids at pre-releases because they couldn't afford the whole price. I'm not an ogre, I promise, lol.

 

[grassmaster239]

Politoed's short defense of making a profit:

1. I never force anyone into a trade. In addition, I almost always make the other party make the initial offer.
2. If someone is giving themselves the short end of the stick, I will add in a little something to make them extra happy.
3. If they feel satisfied with the trade, there really isn't a problem.
4. If they will never take advantage of a given card (say, their RH Collector) because they don't know what it is or don't play competitively, and will never sell it, there are two ways it could go: 1) The card sits in a binder until it rotates and is worth 50¢. 2) I trade for it and use it/sell it as it should be used/sold.
5. If they do find out that they got a slightly worse end of a deal, perhaps they won't be so hasty in the future.

Being ten is no excuse for being ignorant. I know plenty of kids who have at least a fundamental knowledge of the value of their cards, or at the very least who have enough sense to consult an adult about the deal.

You know, You sound very smart

 

[Jaeger]

you're assuming that everyone travelled and there won't be any locals there at nats.

i know for a fact that there are local players from my own league who have never gone to a regionals or states (only 2 hours away!) that plan to play the LCQ, just because it's here in town.

i DO have to oversee trades at league with these jrs/srs, especially when trading with masters players...

jmho
'mom

MOM this is the best approach but ONLY if you have a League Leader that knows values and trades fairly themselves...but I'll leave my personal local experiences out of it.

I'll give my personal point of view

1.) I feel online everybody should know their values, they have a half dozen websites they can look at and I almost always price out my trades before I agree. Probably why you don't see horrid one sided trades online much.

2.) Age plays a huge roll as well I feel an adult should (over the age of 18) should be expected to know there values far more than a younger player.

3.) People will justfi ripping little kids off however they can to themselves this is why using logic to tell them they are wrong fails horribly.

4.) Its not rude to enter into other trades, for all of you out there who keep quoting the business world its called competition. If a TV network starts to enter in talks to host the Super Bowl do you think all the other networks just sit there and say "well they did get there first", of course not, they throw in competing bids as well.

 

[PokeChump]

There can be a million reasons why certain people will justify its alright to do it, but in the end the thread is about protecting the younger part of the game, not the Online trading or Ebay, but if some must make it a point that its still fine to take advantage of the younger part of the game without actually trying to help it, then all they care about is themselves. Which is sad, but they'll learn sometime in the future, at least we hope.

 

[Swordfish1989]

*sigh* If you're just going to resort to emotional arguments rather than retaliate any of our arguments, then there's point in talking to you. My problem with morality is that so many people use it as a way for people to try to assert themselves as better than others, like you guys are doing now. You can't accept that someone sees life differently from you, and you attack with anger.

My argument is extremely valid, so much so that you haven't countered it yet. Little kids either don't care about values, or don't have the attention span to try to understand them. That ability Emboar may be great for them starting a fire deck, but they have their heart set on using their Lilligant and I can't change their mind. Most of them will also leave the game before they even get to middle school, and all of those good cards will end up in a shoebox, which will eventually end up as a lot on ebay in 5-10 years. How many players can you name that have stayed with the game consistently (not taking year-long breaks from the game) from the time they were a kid? There aren't very many at all because a vast majority (I'd say at least 90%) quit before then and there's nothing you can do. No one in this thread has really made any valid points against my arguments, just sneered at them. Foolish me, thinking that I could have an educated debate via the internet.

Keep looking down on others from your high horse; go ahead. I think it's pitiful that you find a need to, because I don't need to judge others online to make myself feel better... which whether you deny it or not, is why you're doing it. Otherwise, why would you bother typing it out?

All you're doing is painting an evil picture of me to make what you say seem meaningful. "All they care about is themselves". Really? I guess that's why I'm saving up my money to buy my mom a nice piece of jewelry after hers got stolen when our house got broken into last year. Or how I spent hours learning how to make a cake shaped like a chain chomp for my boyfriend because it's his favorite mario character. Or, how I volunteered at the humane society in my spare time. But no, it's easier to attack a monster than to try to put a face on it. I haven't once assumed that you are a bible-thumping priest with a collar so high it blocks your vision - I'm arguing with you as if you were a rational human being but you don't afford me the same thing. You make assumptions about me and who I am based on one little thing - can you imagine what life would be like if everyone did that? If I picked out one little thing from your life and made a sea of bad assumptions about you based on it? You act as if you've never done anything questionable. What's that saying... let he who has not sinned cast the first stone? You're doing a lot of casting...

I'm not going to bother to come back to this thread. If you can't treat me with the respect I treat you, and are going to resort to high-school level argument, then I have no reason to bother with you... my time is more valuable than that.