Ohio & player issues discussion.

[Ignatious]

Wow, that is disappointing. I know the judges were just trying to appease him, because of his all mighty attitude at the time. They get intimidated very easily by some of the players. Anyways, the way I see it, if he cuts your deck, then you are not stacking. For sure. If he has a problem, he can begin to cut the deck.

 

[Biggie]

Wow, that is disappointing. I know the judges were just trying to appease him, because of his all mighty attitude at the time. They get intimidated very easily by some of the players. Anyways, the way I see it, if he cuts your deck, then you are not stacking. For sure. If he has a problem, he can begin to cut the deck.

Did....did we just read the same thread? :nonono:

 

[SteveP]

Which of these statements would you rather hear?

- Your sleeves are warn and damaged.

- Your cards are marked.

A little bit of political-correctness goes a long way.

The penalty guidelines state:

1. Assigning Penalties
Pokémon Organized Play Tournament Organizers seek to create fun, safe, and non‐stressful play experiences for our players. For this reason, the application of penalties should be handled in the most polite and discrete manner possible.

Every time a penalty is assigned, it should be accompanied by an explanation of specifically how the player’s actions are disallowed by the Pokémon TCG rules or the POP Tournament Rules and by a clear description of what penalty will result from a repeated infraction.

POP believes that standard‐level events are a learning environment for new players, as well as players practicing for more competitive‐level events. Therefore, the application of penalties should be handled in a way that is positive and that moves the player toward a better overall understanding of the rules.

If a player storms out, judges need to review the statements above to see if something could've been handled better.

 

[GodTrainer]

I made top cut at this weekend's BR's so I went in thinking okay this could be fun (I rarely make it to premier events). After the judges explained all the rulings for top cut we began. I scooped, bad start, whateve I was just happy to be playing. Next turn is going good for both of us and then this older man decides that I am a cheater. He calls over a judge to look at my sleeves because some of them are older (rising rivals PR to be exact). They are barely bent, but apparently I am stacking my deck. So the judge asks if I have any extra of the sleeves (as if they give out 61 PR sleeves in a pack) and I reply sorry, no. So he says you can take out all of your cards and play without sleeves, and again I said sorry no. I had my Flygon Lv X that I refuse to play without protection.

Then I began to analyze what actually just happened... Some random man just accused me of my integrity and essentially called me a cheater. I had about 3 hours worth of homework before classes on Monday (today) and I had some paperwork to get ready for work in the morning. I decided you know, this is not for me. I then just scooped up and walked out. I was fuming at the time but now reflecting on it, I can only assume that Pokemon (a game for FUN!) attracts a lot of socially ackward people that take it too seriously and essentially push away casual players. Many of my friends gave on up tournaments because the people are just too rude about the most ludicrous small things. I have watched other players be scrutinized for small errors and it makes me want to vomit. My buddies and I barely have time to hang out with each other and when we decide to do anything Pokemon, we will just head to prerelease where it is much more fun and relaxing. What a turn off and let down that day was for me as I was excited to try and play Pokemon more often. Oh well now I can spend less money on the game and instead invest more in Nintendo common stock!

I would like some comments/input from the more casual players that have little time but a lot of love for this game as to what their experience is. I would also like to exemplify how wonderful some of the people are like Heather, Dustin, Austin, etc. I hope that they will continue to be a driving force in Pokemon and keep their attitudes at the forefront of the game.

Adam

ok.

I have not read all 4 pages of this thread (I read pgs 1&4)

but I had to chime in.

In general,

I AGREE with you.


I know the EXACT feeling you had at that very moment.

LIFE is more important the pokemon!

it is NEVER a good feeling to have your integrity challenged.

I have often felt this way.

I work 50+ hrs a week, trying to start up my own business on the side, never see my family, never see any of the other friends, neglect all the normal life stuff (cleaning, etc)

all so I can go, volunteer to work events. ... and sometimes all i get is greaf for it!


sometimes it just makes you wonder. Is pokemon really worth my trouble? with all the STUPID rulings being handed down lately.


those sentiments of

Many of my friends gave on up tournaments because the people are just too rude about the most ludicrous small things. I have watched other players be scrutinized for small errors and it makes me want to vomit.

are the EXACT!! reasons I quit playing MTG. I see pokemon turning into MTG more and more every day, and it is VERY disheartening

 

[Biggie]

SteveP, despite the fact that if as a Professor you have an actual issue with our policies there are better places to discuss it with us I will bite on this one.

Which of these statements would you rather hear?

- Your sleeves are warn and damaged.

- Your cards are marked.

If you are asking me I would say that no one should be saying either of those things without further explanation.
If anything, they should be saying something like "This falls under the rules for marked cards which includes things like the natural wear and tear in question in your case."
If a player has read the penalty guidelines they would see that an example of marked cards is natural wear and tear, and then there should be no issue.

If a player storms out, judges need to review the statements above to see if something could've been handled better.

Sure, but I don't think that this is the best case to use as an example. I mean Adam left before he could even be offered sleeves; he was under the impression that he had been personally insulted, and he had other places to be anyway. Specifying which type of marked card issue was involved would not likely have changed anything.

 

[SteveP]

SteveP, despite the fact that if as a Professor you have an actual issue with our policies there are better places to discuss it with us I will bite on this one.

Dan, you asked the following question in this forum, so I provided a response here in this forum. And, I don't have an "issue." I just provided a recommendation.

So if it is "rude" to point out an issue, but players have to point out issues because judges cannot be everywhere, what would you like to see happen?

If you are asking me I would say that no one should be saying either of those things without further explanation.
If anything, they should be saying something like "This falls under the rules for marked cards which includes things like the natural wear and tear in question in your case."
If a player has read the penalty guidelines they would see that an example of marked cards is natural wear and tear, and then there should be no issue.

Adam's reaction might not seem normal to some, but from some posts in this topic, it seems normal to others. He claimed his integrety was insulted. Was he just being paranoid? Or, was the use of the term "marked cards" misinterpretted as an accusation of cheating?

That's my point in my posts. I understand the context of the term "Marked Cards" with regards to the penalty guidelines. But, it's quite obvious that others might not.

We're educating each other here. Nothing will be accomplished if one side won't "listen" to the other.

 

[calisupra2nr]

^^ Exactly, neither side seems to be listening.

 

[Biggie]

^^ Exactly, neither side seems to be listening.

I disagree. There are plenty of folks including myself who have let you know that we understand why you might have felt the way you did, and you have made it clear that you now understand that Mike was never calling you a cheater. To me that sounds like progress. :thumb:

SteveP, I didn't realize you were answering that particular question a second time and took your repetition and the fact that the OP never brought the phrase "marked cards" into the equation to mean that perhaps you had a problem with our policies.

He claimed his integrety was insulted. Was he just being paranoid?

I don't think paranoia has anything to do with it. I do think that between his reaction and his questions about why wear and tear is even an issue, he does show that he was not as well acquainted with the penalty guidelines as he might have liked to be. As a more casual player I can understand why this might have been the case, but it certainly was one of the circumstances that he had control over that could have allowed him to avoid this situation getting as ugly as it seems to have.

Or, was the use of the term "marked cards" misinterpretted as an accusation of cheating?

As I touched on briefly earlier in the post, the OP at no point in this thread has talked about the phrasing on the rule. He talked about sleeves being old and bent which tells me that he understood why the judge had an issue with them. He has in fact explained very clearly that he felt he had been called a cheater because someone had told him he was playing with sleeves that were against the rules. To an honest guy like Adam, doing something that is against the rules simply equates to cheating. Since he is not a cheater, he took issue. The name of the rule could have been "fluffy bunnies and lollipops" and if it were against the rules and he were accused of it, he would have felt as though he were being called a cheater. Adam can (and should) of course correct me if I am wrong or putting words into his mouth.

That's why I said that while I understand what you mean about some players taking the phrase "Marked Cards" the wrong way, this was a bad example of that issue in action.

 

[Ignatious]

Did....did we just read the same thread? :nonono:

The thing about me is... I was at that tournament.

 

[calisupra2nr]

The phrase "marked cards" never sparked the issue as I was never displaying concern with rules or judging. It was a concern with how players are interacting with other players and how that can be discouraging. However, I do agree that marked cards implicitly states that they were tampered with prior to the match in order to cheat. A simple change in verbiage could change how that statement carries meaning. The reason I never had a problem was honestly, no one used the term marked. My opponent just made a weird face like he found out that I had started to cheat and then called the judge over and said look at these sleeves. If he would have said he has marked sleeves I would have ensured at the time to speak my mind as it would carry even more accusations. Just food for thought as I now have more understanding as to where both parties were coming from.

 

[MrMeches]

Wait, I am confused by this statement, so are you saying that Game 1 was played and the comment about the sleeves happened between Game one and Game two??

Please clarify.

Fish

It was noticed during game two while I was cutting his deck. But like in any game if a sleeve rips it must be replaced. This was about 10-15 cards that had the side edges beginning to pull back revealling white on the sides of blue sleeves in random spots. Is that what you asked for?

Approximately, how long was game one??

I do not know where these question are leading but game one was him scooping after drawing his first card as I was able to ko his only Pokemon. He scooped game two about 10-20 minutes in the match totally, turn two or three. Point being?

To feel the need to approach a judge after they have already looked over the deck twice and then play through 2 rounds prior to the one in question and then call out a judge for sleeves... does not make a whole lot of sense.

Well I stormed out because honestly, it was a slam against my integrity. We played 2 games prior to the incident and you did not request a judge at that point. I understand that you said it was fine, but if it was fine why did you ask for the check in the first place? Rules are rules, and if you want to follow them to the point that it ruins the game for casual players by interrupting what is supposed to be fun, then that is your choice.

Could Adam or Mike clarify if they played during the Swiss rounds??

Just wondering.

Fish

 

[AgentP]

I can claify that. Adam and Mike did play each other in Round 4. Mike won that match, and it was Adam's only loss in Swiss.

 

[nnaann]

JMO, but if this guy was trying to shark you, why pack up your things and leave? If that were me, that would make me more determinded to stay and beat him. Let him try to do anything, and still win - that's your best comeback. Leaving is the wrong attitude. Even if you won't make any more tournaments, finish that one.

 

[ColdCoates90]

In a battle road I'd never bring attention of minor things such as this to the judges unless I 100% thought the person was cheating or gaining an advantage just for fear of stuff like resleeving.No one wants to stop what they're doing in the middle of a game and change sleeves. To call in a judge and not expect that as a possiblity is unrealistic and I feel play should have continued as is.

At higher tier events you tend to bring in alot of different people out of the wood works, people you don't necessarily know and play on a weekly basis so I'd be much less hestitant to get a judge involved, especially with a great deal more of prizes and points on the line.

JMO

 

[Biggie]

However, I do agree that marked cards implicitly states that they were tampered with prior to the match in order to cheat.

Are you talking about a definition or perception of the phrase outside the Pokémon rules? If so, bear in mind that you have to take game rules in context. Stealing in baseball is encouraged, stealing outside baseball is not.
If taken in the context of a Pokémon TCG match the marked card penalty guidelines say no such thing. The closest it comes is in marked cards major which says that further investigation may be needed to determine if there was intent to cheat. It has that text because up until that point a marked card penalty assumes no such intent.
In fact marked cards very specifically call out natural wear and tear as one of the things covered by this penalty. Natural wear and tear by definition means the cards have not been tampered with.

I strongly urge folks to take a look at the guidelines found in this thread if they intend to play in official Pokémon OP events:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=109176&highlight=penalty+guidelines

 

[calisupra2nr]

The marked card penalty guidelines say no such thing. The closest it comes is in marked cards major which says that further investigation may be needed to determine if there was intent to cheat. It has that text because up until that point a marked card penalty assumes no such intent.
In fact marked cards very specifically call out natural wear and tear as one of the things covered by this penalty. Natural wear and tear by definition means the cards have not been tampered with.

The guidelines may follow that, but I do not know the guidelines well enough. That is why I stated that the term marked (with no relation to clauses that may constitute otherwise) implicitly means singled out for notice. I think the issue here is that if marked is the perfect word for POP to stick with, then we need to find more ways for casual players (including myself) to learn the guidelines. I am not sure how history works with POP but one way to do this would be for a new POP player attending their first Premier event, to be given a rulebook and asked to read through it while their decklist is being checked. Obviously it could me much more refined than this but it is only an example. I mean I have read through the rules in precon theme deck lol, but that only helps with gameplay basics.

EDIT: I saw the link to the one's on the Pokegym and to be honest, I do not browse the forums beyond deck help, trading post and tcg news. I will obviously follow the link to read through this, but new/casual players are my concern at this point.

 

[Biggie]

I will obviously follow the link to read through this, but new/casual players are my concern at this point.

They are always our concern as well.
I know that the rules and guidelines documents are listed in the Tournament section of the OP site as well, but I will take another look to see if they need to be more prominently placed.

 

[SteveP]

There have been other topics about irregular/warn sleeves. I've heard comments that "marked cards" implies cheating. So, I brought it up here. Personally, I understand it in this context. Others do too. Yet, that doesn't mean the understanding is universal, even within our own community.

Anyway, that aside, if this whole discussion is about player interactions, that some players exude bad vibes, I have little-more to add. A little bit of humility and understanding is really all that's needed -- without which, bitterness ensues.

 

[GodTrainer]

They are always our concern as well.
I know that the rules and guidelines documents are listed in the Tournament section of the OP site as well, but I will take another look to see if they need to be more prominently placed.

Biggie,

this is true. Maybe take into consideration that alot of your player base, 1 doesn't have internet access and 2 doesn't know how to find it on the website.

Maybe if OP could make some fliers for TO's to distribute? promoting the official rules sections?

or maybe, as a marketing aspect, if you could create a sort of

"tournament pack" for retail? that includes all the needed Tournament instructions in a booklet, along with a more "competitive" deck then your standard theme decks?

very similar to the difference between MTG theme decks and MTG "intro packs"

the big thing is the inclusion of a booklet detailing all the TO floor rules.

just a thought

 

[The Gorn]

Could we maybe use a different term than "marked cards"? I always think of the old westerns where guys are sitting in the saloon and one guy says "Hey, these cards are marked!" and then the gunfire starts.

A lot of people hear "marked cards" sort of feel like it is intentional.

How about "worn cards" or something?