Player's Intent (What are you doing?)

[beatlerat]

I just came back from a CC today and thoght I needed to post another one of my (possibly) controversial subjects.

I will call it Player's INTENT.
First, I would like to make it clear that I feel we have the best players, Gym Leaders, Judges, To's, and PTO's in the country. The game today is so diverse, with maybe a few decks leading the pack, but as other engines are discovered, new decks are arising that are much more complex, both in strategy and playability. And, as these new decks emerge, it takes more thinking skills, more time if you will, to think each play or move (and ahead) through to resolve these complex strategies. At the same time, calculating damage has become just as difficult to master. Once you have done it, your opponent must resolve the same set mathematical calculations that you endured while attacking.

This is where I go into player intent.

First example. I was playing a critical match in which if won, could have propelled me into the top cut. I was 3-1 and my opponent was the only 4-0. At a critical jucture in the match, he decided to Quick Search. Generally, I expect my opponent to finish his search, and place their card face down on their hand. In this instance, during the search, he put the deck down, picked up his hand, and placed an energy on his Active Pokemon. He then proceeded to pick his deck back up and riffed through it. With a judge watching, I asked what are you doing now? He replied that he decided to attach his energy, and then Quick Search. OK. At this point he got his card and looked down, and somehow his Pigeot (and lower evolutions) had gotten mixed up in his discard pile (which was in some disarray). Where is my Pidgeot? he asked. Looking through the discard pile, he found it and since I had not knocked it out, he was allowed to replace it on the bench with no harm done.
I let this go, and I should have, but my point to this is SAY WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO, AND DO IT. Make it your INTENT, then act on it. You should not be allowed to say you are going to one thing, then do something else. Judges have enough on their minds without having to resolve issues such as these.

Second example. Many of us have gotten into the habit of stating during our attack, "40 damage", or "Link Blast knocks him out", or even "knock him out" without even giving the other player a chance to resolve the attack. Many of us that play regularly understand the attacks, and have a general idea of what the opponent means or means to say. We also know most of the opponents attacks and are able to calculate them quickly or even ahead of time. But what about the times where you say "Knock him out", and there are energy costs (or other factors) associated with that attack that you do not carry out? It was your INTENT to do that attack and do all of the other things associated with what you MEANT, but you did not carry them out. How is a judge to rule on your INTENT?

I say you should call out the attack (as you should clearly call out every move, Poke Power, Poke Body, every Trainer (or Stadium) card, that you INTEND to use, and then do it. If your attack does 50+ 20 damage for each energy you discard, the you CALL OUT YOUR ATTACK, discard as many cards as you need to (or see fit), explain that damage, weakness and resistance, and the total amount of damage done, so that:
1. Your opponent can follow it
2. If a judge is called over, there is no question as to your attack AND your INTENT.

I know that this is in the rules, but we need to abide by them, and make life easier on our judges. They have a hard enough time as it is.
Thanks

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

Sometimes explaining every little thing is annoying and too time-consuming. Generally I can understand what is going on in a match, but when I have a question, I ask my opponent to explain it to me. It's as simple as that. I do have a problem sometimes with an opponent going "90000 damage" or "KO" without explaining it, especially when it comes to Dark/Metal energy and other factors, since it can get confusing at times. (Scizor, Metals, Damage Perception, Steel Wing, Blastoise Rain Dance, eye yi yi, sometimes it turns into a Math quiz). What I think is generally accepted by most people is if they point to the attack and say how much damage it does, or if they announce the attack and then tell you how much damage. If you have any problems with what they say, just ask them to explain it. If they are constantly confusing throughout the entire game, ask them not to be.

 

[beatlerat]

I do have a problem sometimes with an opponent going "90000 damage" or "KO" without explaining it, especially when it comes to Dark/Metal energy and other factors, since it can get confusing at times.

So you agree.
Lets say a Scizor EX (three metals attached) with 60 damage on him, attacking a Metang (one Metal two Psychic attached).
You say "Steel Wing for 40 and I have 60 or less HP, that does 40 more, plus my Strength Charm, minus 10 for your metal, does 80. Knocks him out. And you do 20 less to me next time plus my Metal Energy. It is not wordy and is better than "I'll do you for a eighty."

I think it is good communication, and the opponent knows exactly your INTENT.:wink:

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

Well yeah, because that can get confusing at times. There is also the feeling that they may have done something wrong, and you just want an explanation to be sure.

But most of the time, situations aren't like that, and you get what's going on.

 

[Rulemaster]

it was probably his first day playing pokemon, give him a break. he probably had the rulebook right next to him, correct? i've played these players a million times.

btw always say what attack you are doing in a tournament, some people are pretty dense

 

[Pokemaster1110]

I think it should also depend on WHO you are playing. If you're playing against a person you regularly play at league or whatever, then being so formal may not be necessary. If it is someone you know to be a new player, or someone you don't know very well or at all, then it's best to be as formal as you can be and abide by the technicalities as you are able. But then again, after 10 minutes of playing a person, you can start to get an idea about how well versed they are on everything.

 

[Poliwag92]

I agree that you should call out your attacks and Poke- powers/bodies because some people just say, " I'll do 40 to you" Or some might just place the damage counters on the pokemon and not even say a word.

 

[Benlugia]

So you agree.
Lets say a Scizor EX (three metals attached) with 60 damage on him, attacking a Metagross (Squared attack, 100 HP, one metal two psychic attached).
You say "Steel Wing for 40, and since you're evolved that does 30 more, and I have 60 or less HP, that does 40 more, minus 10 for your metal, does 100. Knocks him out. And you do 20 less to me next time plus my Metal Energy. It is not wordy and is better than "I'll do you for a hundred."

I think it is good communication, and the opponent knows exactly your INTENT.:wink:

except "cross cut" does the extra damage to the opponent for evolved, not "steel wing".

 

[Prime]

Yeah, I hear, "he's KO'd" a lot. Sorry, that just sounds stupid to me. It's stupid because these people can't obviously take the few seconds to state the name of the attack and finish the effects of the attack. Oh what, you don't have 2 seconds?

In your pidgeot example, I've done something like that, but never in tournament play. Usually I THINK out my moves at tournaments.

I can understand how that can be confusing, and you were nice to let that all slide.

 

[Thundershock]

except "cross cut" does the extra damage to the opponent for evolved, not "steel wing".

I think that is what my dad meant. Doing Crosscut would be one attack, then Steel Wing would be the attack that reduces damage next turn.

I think my dad is right though. By announcing your attack, it takes away all confusion as to what the attacker intended to do, and if he forgets to discard energy (such as Zapdos EX's Electron Crush), then he only does that amount of damage. You can't do 50 damage, then say "I meant to discard an energy." You must discard the energy first.

 

[ryanvergel]

Good luck explaining every little thing at worlds, with foreign players. The fact of the matter is that in a game you have to COMMUNICATE, but it doesn't have to be through explicit words and drawn-out explanations. Simply tapping a card, or saying the major word of the attack should suffice to communicate; saying all of the attack would just be tedious and just wouldn't be possible at higher tournaments. It eats up time and time is crucial in games.

Communication does not necesarilly require the use of language. Dogs can communicate to you through the use of gestures, sounds, etc. People can communicate through body language and other things. I think that if the required communication is being done, it doesn't matter what mode of communication was used,

 

[Prime]

When facing people that don't speak your language, sure, explaining the effect of the card in your language isn't the best idea. That's a given.

Simply tapping the card does not suffice though when cards have many attacks. Your Blastoise EX is facing an Electrode EX and the blastoise ex has 120 damage on it. Let's say the prizes are equal, 1-2 in favor of the blastoise. If you just tap the card, who knows what attack you used, and that choice could change the game greatly. If you do mass destruction, you both draw the rest of your prizes and it's a tie. If you use swift (or whatever the first attack of electrode is), you KO the blastoise EX and win the game. Two totally different outcomes.

To conclude, when facing someone who cannot communicate with you verbally, communicate another way. When facing someone who you CAN communicate with verbally, show the opponent some respect, and talk to them.

It's not that hard.

 

[Otaku]

I agree that players need to make sure their intent is clear. However, I believe that one can go to extremes in this matter, and of course it is not a rigid set of guidelines, but must be adjusted according to circumstances.

The seemingly longwinded explanation where you walk the opponent through everystep of your attack is best reserved for games with extremely new players or largely unknown (yes, the real word, not the Pokemon ) decks. This kind of situation, especially when both players have something new or at least rarely seen in their decks, that mistakes happen. If both players clearly read each others cards and announce what's happening, its difficult for a mistake to occur. If they just do the whole "KO" thing, it is asking for trouble. Even if you didn't mean to "cheat", you might. Or you might get cheated: nothing like something constantly re-assuring you that a protective effect is stopping you... when he keeps missing some obscure clause. That just has to happen once to really mess up a match. And the better the players are, the worse it is: nothing like trying to explain that it "was a simple mistake" when you don't make them that often.

In a tournament between two competant players, I believe announcing your attack and the end effects is enough. However, if something important that couldn't be rewound is a result, make sure you give your opponent a chance to respond (I recommend requiring it). The most common example is drawing a prize when it turns out your couldn't perform the necessary attack. It is so simple to say "Rage. KO, correct?" That's three words, and since we established competant players, your opponent should be going through the damage process on their own. If they get a different result, they can speak up. If they get the same and it does turn out to be incorrect later... oh well, mistakes do happen, even with the best of us. To prevent excess spam on the thread, let me add "Except for [insert name/], who is perfect. [Insert Name/] needs to say it because of imperfect opponents and to set an example for the fallible." If you're perfect, just insert your name where indicated.

Good luck explaining every little thing at worlds, with foreign players. The fact of the matter is that in a game you have to COMMUNICATE, but it doesn't have to be through explicit words and drawn-out explanations. Simply tapping a card, or saying the major word of the attack should suffice to communicate; saying all of the attack would just be tedious and just wouldn't be possible at higher tournaments. It eats up time and time is crucial in games.

If there is a judge observing who you know speaks your language, just add the normal explanation for competant players to the appropriate gestures. If there is a translator, you may want to walk that person through the damage step by step. Otherwise, against players who can't communicate with you verbally, use the appropriate non-verbal communication methods to explain as clearly as you can what you are doing.

As for the time consumed... too bad. Sounds to me like "rushing" when you don't. I don't recall if that is against the rules, but even if it isn't, its poor sportsmanship. You play your deck frequently, I'd assume, so everything is obvious to you. However unlikely, it is always possible your opponent has never actually seen your deck in action, and in the case of large tournaments, has probably never seen you in action with it. You may be performing all legal moves, but if from my perspective it looks like you did a 20 second disco dance before declaring "KO", you're going to lose time anyway as I ask you to explain. "Point point point" isn't always clear: here is an area where you really do have to keep in mind "perspective". You see where you point from where you sit. I see it from across from you. Judges see it from any number of angles. So to me it looks like you pointed at a PokePower on the active, the judge thinks you pointed at an attack, and you actually pointed at one of your prize's card sleeves because you notice it had become damaged over the course of play and you want to re-sleeve it as soon as possible.

Communication does not necesarilly require the use of language. Dogs can communicate to you through the use of gestures, sounds, etc. People can communicate through body language and other things. I think that if the required communication is being done, it doesn't matter what mode of communication was used,

Such communication is very primitive. Dogs can communicate things like "good", "bad", "hungry", but not "20 damage to your Active Pokemon and it is Confused". Additionally, it is very hard to get a dog to process things at a higher cognitive level. If your dog is used to you being home because you got it over summer break, then it begins tearing up your place when you have to start attending classes, it is not because it misses you... it is because you're normally there to give it cues as to what behavior it may or may not do, and when you are gone for long periods, it becomes both confused and bored. That's when knocking over the garbage can to see what's inside and maybe get a "snack" sounds good to the dog.

 

[ryanvergel]

Communication is communication. Guess what, in the rules it says you don't have to say the entire attack. Why? Because you've COMMUNICATED the attack you are using. You can say "crush" and not say "crush and burn". Why? Because it's the active pokemon, and it's only attack that can be identified is "crush and burn", so the effect is communicated just as well.

Saying one word should suffice. If you don't know what the effects do, read the card.

Good job ignoring the purpose of examples. An example is used to show a parallel between two situations or subjects and show a connection or relationship that helps your argument.

My argument: Drawn-out, long-winded explanations are not necessary.
Evidence: It isn't required in the rules. As long as you communicate what you're doing, and it can be understood, you don't have to list off everything under the sun.
Communication isn't bound by sentences. Babies can communicate with 1-2 words, or even gestures. Why can't we? If it saves time, and energy, then what's the problem? You get the point, so the means to arriving at that point obviously worked.

Point is: communicate in whatever fashion that will allow you to arrive to the point of understanding. If you can do it, communicate less and save time/energy. if you have to, say all the attack names, count out damage, say stuff like "Okay, I will use power lariat from my active nidoqueen. I have one, two, three, four benched pokemon. Only two of them are evolutions, so I get an additional 20 damage from them. An additional 10 from nidoqueen. And because I have a DRE attached, it's a reduced ten. That comes out to 60 damage"... you can say "okay, lariat, +20(taps nidoqueen and benched evolution*, -10 for *taps DRE*..60 damage"

You should be able to feel out your opponent. If it's a competent player, those explanations are just tedious and time-consuming. If it's a new player, of course explain it, but having to do that for EVERY MATCH? No way, it's not necessary. If it was, it would be in the rules.

 

[Prime]

Drawn-out, long-winded explanations are not necessary, but one word answers, in a game of near infinite possibilities, just will not suffice. Maybe to you, they will, but to me, "Crush", doesn't explain anything. Crush what? "I discard 2 energy and Crush and burn for the KO" takes two more seconds of speech yet explains everything needed to explain. Both players are happy, unless you are upset that you lost 2 seconds of time off the clock

Otaku did bring up a good point about the translators at worlds.

I do understand your need to be protected against stalling. Stalling happens and it's one of the most horrible things in this game, but I don't think taking a few seconds to include a sentence in your speech instead of just blurting out a word jeopardizes that effort.

 

[GymLeaderPhil]

This really isn't an issue of intent, it's more of an issue with accepted shortcuts. Shortcuts are an acceptable part of the game and should be used as often as possible in order for the game to finish before time is called. Players who fail to use acceptable shortcuts over and over in a match are subject to slow play and/or stalling penalties.

In your first example beatlerat the player should have finished his or her Quick Search before performing any other actions. However that player did not gain any advantage by not completing the Quick Search, attaching the energy, and then (assumedly) finishing the Quick Search after resolving what happened to the Pidgeot. It was a messy game state that was easily resolved and if anything, the player should have received a penalty for minor procedural error and possibly for slow play (if there was evidence of any earlier) in addition to a couple of minutes added to the game.

There is no purpose to announce every single move that one makes during their turn. If you have an opponent who is confused by an action(s) you are making it is their role to ask what is going on or call a judge over to help explain it. After that there should not be a reason to explain what you are repeatedly doing throughout the match. A player should not be performing groups of identical effects individually when there is no chance of a meaningful response.

Using a shortcut in some situations could result in a number of different outcomes should the action a player is taking has choices involved. If a player has to resolve several things in order to do that one action and they don't in the process of using that shortcut then it is resolved. If there are multiple options then it comes down to intent and what actions were made to resolve it. Players who repeatedly ignore details while using shortcuts should be penalized.

 

[Otaku]

I was going to make a rediculously long post, as I often do, but I'll try and keep it brief.

If you don't clearly communicate what your actions are, you leave yourself open to making mistakes or being perceived as incompetant or cheating. "Clearly communicating" is not a set term, apparently. If it is, I would be grateful for someone explaining. I can see why it might be undefined: if your opponent is hearing and/or visually impaired, your normal actions may not be so obvious. Keep in mind, just the differences between regional dialects/gestures can act as "impairment". So for someone like that, a tap and a mumbled word aren't so obvious.

 

[beatlerat]

I think that most of us understand what I meant by INTENT. If you have two players that CAN communicate on a level of non-verbal interaction, then I think that is fine. But for the rest of us, mediocre is the best we will ever be. As I stated, had I won that game, I may have been either first or second seed, as it was I finished one out of the cut for the third time in a row. I am not a first time player, just a good player that is deliberate (slow to some) and as I am calling my attacks to him, I would hope he would treat me with the same respect. There are penalties for "rushing" as well, and as a judge, I will warn players when I see that they are rushing to deliberately confuse an opponent. I will save that for another time.
From now on, I will teach my players to say their attack, and the calculated damage that occurs. In most cases I think that will suffice, but if an explanation is needed, I feel the opponent has that right to ask as well. I am not for slowing down the game. The cards have already done that for us to some extent. I just want to make sure that the opposing player understands what is being used against him.

 

[ryanvergel]

Phil 4 lyf

 

[ColdFire64]

I too, agree that long winded explanations are not necessary.

As long as the attack and the amount of damage is being called out, followed by a condition (KO, poison, burn, etc.), then I don't see any problem. I strongly encourage all my players to ask questions as soon as they don't understand something being done. Read your opponent's cards if you have to, but as long as both sides know what's going on, then "shortcuts" aren't an issue.

I also agree with Phil that the player should have finished his/her Quick Search BEFORE doing anything else.

There is also a certain player at my leagues that is in the bad habbit of saying "Quick Search", then attaching energy, laying down a supporter, searching their deck from the Quick Search, then drawing their cards from the supporter, and then offer their opponent to shuffle the deck... :nonono:

This, even to a player like myself who has played the game for many years now, can be confusing since this player is doing so much at one time. The way I see it, DO ONE THING AT A TIME!!! This in turn makes the match less confusing, and also avoids the risk of being called a cheater.