I guess i just had another bad experiences with a mod... I posted in a trade thread, where they were giving prices on how much they valued cards. I asked "how much for charizard *', and i get an infraction. RA, i am fully aware of what an infraction was. I tried to pm them back to no avail.
Public Announcement: STRATEGY does NOT = BuildMeAList :/
- Thread starter Rogue Archetype
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ColdCoates90
Active Member
I honestly don't remember such a time since your join date. Back when Nintendo took over there was a brief time when just about everyone would openly talk about strategy and lists. Anyone remember BAR?
The better players learned real quick that it wasn't exactly beneficial to talk about strategy on here, however, because they didn't gain anything from the discussion and stood only to lose more games by equipping worse players with lists and matchup knowledge.
The next few years following Nintendo's revival of the game had more players branching off into groups and developing "secret" decks such as medicham ex, muk ex, nidoqueen,etc(I wasn't apart of any of these, sour grapes!). Usually every single time a secret deck was unveiled by a skilled player or group it almost always won an event that same day, sometimes in multiple locations. I'm not sure the same could be said if these players openly talked about their decks before playing them in tournaments.
Is it perhaps possible since your joining this site that you've been learning the basics all along and are just now noticing a decline because you are reaching a point where you learn little each day?
Rogue Archetype
Moderator <br> Contest Host
Good ol' fashioned calling me out ...
Condescend much?
You assume you're the better player and I'm just pure garbage.
That's all good.
I have to say that your approach is tacky nontheless.
I think I've been beyond the basics for awhile ...
To be honest, I fail to even understand why you would even post that. It's like you came mean spirited and your ONLY intent was to be a bit of a wanker and kill the spirit of the thread.
I'm sorry that you feel that thread crushing would make you feel better man...
If you don't remember people coming in here and sharing deck strategies that were advanced, you haven't visited much. I've even CREATED threads that I could probably dig up/necro where an AMAZING cast of contributors came in and offered up ideas. I remember hearing people say "DID YOU SEE WHO'S IN THAT THREAD MAN ??"
So, I'm going to just disagree. I'm not going to buy into whatever you're trying to get started with that little snipe man.
I'll be the bigger man.
Condescend much?
You assume you're the better player and I'm just pure garbage.
That's all good.
I have to say that your approach is tacky nontheless.
I think I've been beyond the basics for awhile ...
To be honest, I fail to even understand why you would even post that. It's like you came mean spirited and your ONLY intent was to be a bit of a wanker and kill the spirit of the thread.
I'm sorry that you feel that thread crushing would make you feel better man...
If you don't remember people coming in here and sharing deck strategies that were advanced, you haven't visited much. I've even CREATED threads that I could probably dig up/necro where an AMAZING cast of contributors came in and offered up ideas. I remember hearing people say "DID YOU SEE WHO'S IN THAT THREAD MAN ??"
So, I'm going to just disagree. I'm not going to buy into whatever you're trying to get started with that little snipe man.
I'll be the bigger man.
ColdCoates90
Active Member
I think you assume too much. Whenever you discover a new website you are going to be flooded by new information, whether it regards pokemon material or not. Of course its stands to reason that someone who didn't know anything about pokemon would learn a great deal in there first few years of playing the game upon joining a dedicated pokemon trading card game forum. However, eventually the influx of new strategy/deck building information has to slow down as you learn more material and can recognize certain things without being told them.
I wasn't belittling you; everyone started somewhere. I really don't even know you, we only met briefly at a pizza restaurant at nats '09 and said less than 5 sentences to each other. I only direct my comments towards you(the thread creator) because you suggest that this forum has somehow become stale recently and I am bringing to your attention that I feel this thread is approximately six years too late.
That's all I'm saying.
I wasn't belittling you; everyone started somewhere. I really don't even know you, we only met briefly at a pizza restaurant at nats '09 and said less than 5 sentences to each other. I only direct my comments towards you(the thread creator) because you suggest that this forum has somehow become stale recently and I am bringing to your attention that I feel this thread is approximately six years too late.
That's all I'm saying.
toxictaipan
New Member
I agree with ColdCoates90. Even though I haven't been playing that long, it's only common sense. It doesn't help the "advanced players" to give out all their secrets and it never will. People aren't just going to give away their competitive edge.
Like he said, everyone was new once. It wasn't a personal attack or anything, just an observation of the obvious. There's going to be a time when every player finds that the community doesn't offer as much for them personally as it used to.
Don't be so quick to play the victim.
EDIT: Here's an example I can give you (and I know Coates factor over there can relate, seein' as we're both guitar players. lol). I've been taking guitar lessons for the past year now. I had been playing for a year before taking lessons and learned what little I could from the internet. When I started taking lessons, my progress was really freakin' good. I was constantly learning something new every week. But now that I've been going for a year, my progress has slowed significantly. While there's still a lot more towards theory I need to learn, as far as technique goes, I've pretty much got everything down besides hammering out the bugs. Every time I sit down to practice, little seems to get accomplished, it's hard to break bad habits and and master techniques in general.
What I'm trying to say is, is that when I was a guitar noob, the path to being mediocre was short and I traveled quickly. Now I'm decent, but I'm still mediocre, and I know it's a long haul from here on out. Sometimes you have learned everything you can be taught and just have to learn things on your own from experience. I think that that's pretty much what has to happen here. A lot of new player use PokeGym as their path from noob to mediocre, but they want to keep using it as their resource for more advanced things. "Good players" won't give out their competitive advantages for nothing, and it's really not fair for us to ask them to. The only thing you can do is go out and get first hand experience. While useful, besides news and stuff, the PokeGym does become kind of obsolete after a while. It's just that PokeGym is a discussion forum, so people are more likely to complain.
Like he said, everyone was new once. It wasn't a personal attack or anything, just an observation of the obvious. There's going to be a time when every player finds that the community doesn't offer as much for them personally as it used to.
Don't be so quick to play the victim.
EDIT: Here's an example I can give you (and I know Coates factor over there can relate, seein' as we're both guitar players. lol). I've been taking guitar lessons for the past year now. I had been playing for a year before taking lessons and learned what little I could from the internet. When I started taking lessons, my progress was really freakin' good. I was constantly learning something new every week. But now that I've been going for a year, my progress has slowed significantly. While there's still a lot more towards theory I need to learn, as far as technique goes, I've pretty much got everything down besides hammering out the bugs. Every time I sit down to practice, little seems to get accomplished, it's hard to break bad habits and and master techniques in general.
What I'm trying to say is, is that when I was a guitar noob, the path to being mediocre was short and I traveled quickly. Now I'm decent, but I'm still mediocre, and I know it's a long haul from here on out. Sometimes you have learned everything you can be taught and just have to learn things on your own from experience. I think that that's pretty much what has to happen here. A lot of new player use PokeGym as their path from noob to mediocre, but they want to keep using it as their resource for more advanced things. "Good players" won't give out their competitive advantages for nothing, and it's really not fair for us to ask them to. The only thing you can do is go out and get first hand experience. While useful, besides news and stuff, the PokeGym does become kind of obsolete after a while. It's just that PokeGym is a discussion forum, so people are more likely to complain.
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ShadowCard
Active Member
R_A, I think you may be overreacting to what you quoted. It makes sense even if the approach is tactless (but I don't detect any tactlessness). I'm not sure where you are getting a jab from it. 
I think ColdCoates90 is trying to say that pokegym has a lot to offer new players but a lot less to offer experienced ones. As the newer players become experienced, they get less as time goes on out of PokeGym because the new player is learning. Additionally, there's little incentive to be a contributing member if you are experienced. (Is the viewpoint, not necessarily my opinion.)
So, as the former new-player looks back nostalgically at the past and remembers a PokeGym that offered a lot but now offers little, that perception is not a reflection of the declining quality of PokeGym but instead a reflection of how much that player has learned.
It goes back into the question "does PokeGym grow and evolve with its players/community?" and "Is it necessary for PokeGym to grow and evolve with its players/community?"
I think ColdCoates90 is trying to say that pokegym has a lot to offer new players but a lot less to offer experienced ones. As the newer players become experienced, they get less as time goes on out of PokeGym because the new player is learning. Additionally, there's little incentive to be a contributing member if you are experienced. (Is the viewpoint, not necessarily my opinion.)
So, as the former new-player looks back nostalgically at the past and remembers a PokeGym that offered a lot but now offers little, that perception is not a reflection of the declining quality of PokeGym but instead a reflection of how much that player has learned.
It goes back into the question "does PokeGym grow and evolve with its players/community?" and "Is it necessary for PokeGym to grow and evolve with its players/community?"
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Rogue Archetype
Moderator <br> Contest Host
Thanks for clearing that up man.
Yeah. I remember you now. You roll with a SKILLLLLLED crew !
Thanks for coming in the thread and giving us your thoughts.
I do hope you'll drop some ideas in the upcoming sticky threads this week (and bring your boys in too!)
RA
prodigal_fanboy
New Member
Mr. Washington, I would just like to wonder this.
I would like to ask you, or any of the mods: has net site traffic decreased? Posts per day? Members/day? Any other metrics? In other words, if the site has "devolved" to this "lower common denominator" within its already present rule system and userbase, is it in the 'Gym's best interest to "clean things up"?
At what point do you decide to run the risk of making changes and driving away the kids who I'm assuming this site attracts in droves?
In other words, is the purpose of this forum to be the very best, like no forum ever was, or is it to serve the communication needs of the members who post here?
I would like to ask you, or any of the mods: has net site traffic decreased? Posts per day? Members/day? Any other metrics? In other words, if the site has "devolved" to this "lower common denominator" within its already present rule system and userbase, is it in the 'Gym's best interest to "clean things up"?
At what point do you decide to run the risk of making changes and driving away the kids who I'm assuming this site attracts in droves?
In other words, is the purpose of this forum to be the very best, like no forum ever was, or is it to serve the communication needs of the members who post here?
Rogue Archetype
Moderator <br> Contest Host
Those were words PUT into my mouth.
All I said was that I couldn't get too many straight answers from the question:
Do you post on PokeGym?
People seemed to be EMBARRASSED to admit that they even visited the site.
All the other garbage about net-traffic and people "leaving the site" is other peoples talk.
Personally, I'm more concerned about quality than quantity.
If we had just four regulars that engaged in some really insightful/meaningful discussion, I'd prefer THAT situation over 100 "build me a deck" , "somebody link me to the deck article" , "I have THIS card and need a good list for it" type thread.
Instead of DISCUSSION strategy, people are just holding out their hand and begging for a cookie-cut list; that's NOT a strategy discussion and my suspicion is that it's not helping anyone, so the ones who KNOW don't get anything from the forum and stop contributing.
People are starting to read OTHER peoples words and thinking that these are things that I'm saying.
This is because alot of people misread (or partially) read anything I write and respond half-hazardly (but with CONVICTION!)
I see what you're saying though (and your PM was awesome BTW).
You got confused about what I am saying because people's responses to what I was saying were off-topic.
This happens when people are more eager to speak than they are to read and educate their opinions.
in other words... Too many people respond before reading the thread; they just read a few lines, make a hasty assumption about the ENTIRE thread's meaning, and respond; this confuses people and loses the thread.
prodigal_fanboy
New Member
Did you quote the right person? I read all your posts, I quick-read most of the others, and I don't think I PM'd you.
I'm just saying that you've stated you would prefer a higher quality forum, but I think that if the forum serves the interests of the members that might not be such a bad thing after all.
Rogue Archetype
Moderator <br> Contest Host
Nope. You didn't send the PM, it was Vegeta. Sorry about the confusion.
Anyway, the interests of the members are segmented throughout the site.
This part of the site is "Strategy" discussion.
"post me up a list" does not serve the interest of learning/discussing/debating strategy.
That's all I was saying in a nutshell :smile:
prodigal_fanboy
New Member
Eh, fair enough. So they conflict with the rules. However, this section is probably the most vaguely defined of the major TCG-related subforums. Such a request for a decklist would be instantly banned, handed a warning, and a PM in DH&S.
If your biggest issue is list requests, simply find a pool of people who whom you know to be personally good that would be willing to submit a starter list, sticky it, and whenever someone starts a duplicate deck thread, have the mods lock it and link to the proper OP.
If your biggest issue is list requests, simply find a pool of people who whom you know to be personally good that would be willing to submit a starter list, sticky it, and whenever someone starts a duplicate deck thread, have the mods lock it and link to the proper OP.
Rogue Archetype
Moderator <br> Contest Host
The heart of the problem was the utilization of the forum.
We needed to get back to talking shop.
Thanks to the feedback in this thread, we discovered a way to help BOTH types of players (the ones who need a good list to put their hands on and learn "hands-on" as well as the ones who come in for ideas about HOW to tech/improve/modify what they have)
So... I think we're going in the right direction:
1. The sticky threads are giving MORE than a mere list to people who are hungry for an understanding of winning decklists.
2. The forum is getting free'd up for unique strategy related questions again.
This is the result of listening to those who use the boards.
The irony is, the "build me a decklist" crowd became more understood. They're just trying to get a push further into the game and want help from the experienced crowd; they were just asking the wrong question.
The REAL question should be: "how does ____ list work?" Then they can understand WHY cards are decked and HOW they function :smile:
Personally, I'd rather teach a man to fish.... fish cost too much money to just give away nowadays :tongue:
ShadowCard
Active Member
I will disagree. The top decks at worlds are released each year. The cards are not tournament legal so there is no reason for people even at league caliber to buy them unless they confine themselves to league play. But printing those decks enables players to buy the lists and play with them. Doing that enables them to learn the strategy.
If they elect to drop cards from those tournament-proven decks in favor of others, it may then become painfully obvious why such a card was needed. That happened to me recently. I found a list and gave it to my think tank. The best players at my leagues (the ones with the medals and trophies) were unable to figure out why certain cards were in the deck and wrote them off as superficial. In overlooking those cards, we failed to anticipate a critical weakness of the deck which was then exploited in tournament games. One opponent used our lack of foresight against me to keep me out of the top cut.
Perhaps try a new contest to test your opinion. Instead of giving people cards and telling them to create lists and thoroughly detail a how cards work, how about you give them a list and nothing else, challenging them to decipher the strategy. From only a list, can players identify key cards for making the deck run and covering weaknesses (both inherent and metagame) in the design? What are the deck's strengths (speed, disruption, endurance, simplicity of design, offensive excellence, etc)? Are they able to work the cards to stand up against metagame decks? Are they able to explain it past "it can't take a beating by gyarados" and "this deck auto-wins against Vilegar"? Did those players see something--especially a strength or back-up strategy--you didn't, effectively teaching you how to play your own deck
?You might actually force those who accept the challenge to build your decks and test them for more accurate results. Can the deck be reasonably changed to make it better but still serve the intended strategy (for example, swap Warp Points for Warp Energy, or swap Potion for Poke Healer+, or Dodrio for Magnezone prime)? Can R_A's theoretical decks really work or can one justifiably say "the only reason you will 1-x instead of 0-x is because you'll get a bye"? To answer that question effectively, players may have to build and play with your decks, taking the creativity and theory that is taught in I Play Theme Decks into real games, when your first-timer has now graduated to the tournament scene. You could even pull a deck right off of the strategy board that looks promising but didn't get any attention.
I actually think there are too many stickied threads at the moment. In its own way, it adds another element of clutter. A sticky thread says attention needs to be given to it for some reason, but it getting lost in a world of stickied threads undermines the point of sticky threads.
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Rogue Archetype
Moderator <br> Contest Host
Thank you for that input!
I've been so busy making them, that I hadn't even considered the possiblity of overkill!
toxictaipan
New Member
Yeah, that was something I was thinking about, too.
While we're still in the new stages of this plan (excellent work, BTW, R_A) I think it's important for some of the threads to be stickied so people can get used to it. After a while though, I think we need to stop sticking them altogether and encourage people to just search for topics before they post a new thread. If a deck is good enough to get top tier results and the thread is good and has good content and discussion, it won't need a sticky thread, because it'll probably just stay on the first page anyway.
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Kayle
Active Member
I kind of want to comment on the flow and voice of the two current topics for Gengar and Sablelock. Those are SO much friendlier to users (well, to me) than most other topics because they feel much more like simple open forums - yeah, you need to be NICE, but you can come in and just say stuff about the deck, even if it's kind of vague and tangential.
I'm not sure if that was the intention, but so far I like it way better, and if you guys like it how it is then I think it's been a great idea and implementation.
I'm not sure if that was the intention, but so far I like it way better, and if you guys like it how it is then I think it's been a great idea and implementation.
Rogue Archetype
Moderator <br> Contest Host
You got me good on the "placemarker" quote too ... LOL! :lol:
Kayle
Active Member
Okay, and - why not?
Wasn't the point of these topics to consolidate a dozen other topics into one?
I thought once you created a thread, it was forum property! If the topic drifts within reason, let it! We're still talking about Sablelock, and there were a couple of solid lists on the front page of the thread.
It's cool that you want to cater to new players on the Pokegym, but what portion of the posters are new? What portion will want to keep talking about the nuances of the Luxchomp vs. Sablelock matchup?
Food for thought, nothing more; just my interpretation.
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