Public Announcement: STRATEGY does NOT = BuildMeAList :/

[Kayle]

R_A, let me set a couple of things straight on this.

I don't want to complain about individual offenses, nor do I want that to sound anything like the basis of my complaint; they are examples to prove my point, and no more. My complaint is with the rules themselves. You guys are doing your job, and I respect that. I'm not going to bully the worker for doing his job, I'm going to bully the job.

That's why I don't really speak up about offenses that make me raise an eyebrow; I don't really see a point. Once it's happened, it's happened and I don't really care all that much (topic locked? Whatever, it was sad that Alex' was the last post but good that the conversation's over! I actually typed up a long reply to Mystery Thing and said "You know what, what is the point of this?" and deleted it.)

About LEX, I'm always forgetting he's a mod. There are several moderators that are "obviously" normal members of the community; the thing is, a much greater and more prominent group of you are obviously not.

I would love to back up EP as a member, too, but he's kinda not. What do I back him up on? All I know of him is as a moderator, one that is curt, unpersonable and - well, how would you feel about someone if their only role in your life was to get you in trouble?


With such a succinct response, it seems kinda like you missed the point. LEX, Mystery Thing and Azure Kite - and to my knowledge, ALL 'kid' moderators - are in charge of very low-maintenance, low-profile areas of the site. RTC has a lot of potential to backfire, but in exchange you have Pokemom and probably others in charge there, too. The parts of the site that really MAKE it are all run by people that, with the exception of you, stifle it. You know what I mean?

Also, R_A, I don't care how old you ACTUALLY are, it's how old you act that makes your age. You're like, the smart nice progressive 22yo

 

[Bolt]

R_A, I wasn't attacking your analogy in any way, and I apologize if that's how I came off!

As to the examples I gave in my post, I don't like posting outside of my personal experiences...I can't remember ever having TOO much trouble borrowing cards to complete a deck. At the New Jersey mini-marathon last week, I accidentally left all of my cards back in New York. I managed to put together three ENTIRELY DIFFERENT complete decks. Maybe this is too optimistic, but I feel like if I can do it, anyone can.

And I said Uxie, not Uxie X!

I just feel like...in terms of talking to people about decks, I have seen and experienced so much idea rejection over the years. I understand people have preference, but the point of posting should be [thought of as] discussion, not just a "deck fix"

 

[Rogue Archetype]

I understand people have preference, but the point of posting should be [thought of as] discussion, not just a "deck fix"

I'm just going to quote that and burn it into memory. Because that's what's up!

 

[loudkirbyking]

Okay, to say this simply. If you want to complain about what the mods do, take their shoes for a day, and you'd probably do close to the same things. You wanna complain about the effort, time, patience, and overall stress they go through to keep this site running? Don't think so.

Anyway, topic... right. For the problem of people going about deck making threads, perhaps there should be a new article about deck making. There was one back last season about making rogue decks, maybe someone should make a new one about this format, making decks or even just rogue decks. Let's look at it from a new player's perspective, shall we?

You open up Pokegym from a google search, and you're amazed by the many things. The first thing you see is the announcements about new Black & White stuff, but then you remember you're here to look up pokemon TCG stuff. You then begin to check the card of the day. Looks interesting, as you scan through the reviews. You exit that, and you're in Cards: Strategy and Rulings discussion! You begin to scan through the threads, looking for some shred of information about deck building... And really, you don't find much, beyond people talking about different decks, and how they work. Doesn't tell you the cards, and, really, not much beyond a list of jumble to anyone looking (Seriously, when I first came here, I had to go scanning around to figure out what everything meant). After scanning through this, confused beyond hope, you go see what deck articles have been in the front page content. You see a bunch of deck ideas that explain everything, so you pick one, and work on getting the cards.

Now, after this long thing, let's think: Throughout this, why not make a "Deck building 101" thing stickied up here, so people can understand it, and not ask for a deck? This season's much different, and probably confusing for beginners, so they steal another person's idea. If there were a thread like so, it might help them learn, and make a grand deck of their own. If people just don't see much, or just flat-out not sure how to deck build, they'll try to get someone else to tell them, and use that. So, by teaching someone how to build decks, it could aid them in creating their own masterpiece.

Of course, an article like this would take a LOT of work to do, but SOMEONE might be willing to do it. Think it might be worth it?

 

[Jaeger]

I think at the very least the Pokegym should implement a begginer and advance forums

 

[Kayle]

Okay, to say this simply. If you want to complain about what the mods do, take their shoes for a day, and you'd probably do close to the same things. You wanna complain about the effort, time, patience, and overall stress they go through to keep this site running? Don't think so.

+awesome.

Having been a mod and administrator for some sites and having known many moderators rather personally, both good and terrible, I will agree that it's a lot of work, but you don't nominate someone for the position unless they can handle it.

Really, the work that's done at Pokegym is kind of harmless. Not a whole lot of effort is needed. Poke through/skim conversations and check on reported posts. Read in-depth when something catches your attention - as a contributor, or as a moderator - and take action as is appropriate. You have a greater obligation to read more topics than an average member does, but a clever moderator can pick out the problem topics quickly without having to read very many posts.

Most of the mods do their work very well and take a few extra steps. Kudos.

My problem is not the mods, and never has been, just the rules.

 

[Melee Mewtwo]

As to the examples I gave in my post, I don't like posting outside of my personal experiences...I can't remember ever having TOO much trouble borrowing cards to complete a deck. At the New Jersey mini-marathon last week, I accidentally left all of my cards back in New York. I managed to put together three ENTIRELY DIFFERENT complete decks. Maybe this is too optimistic, but I feel like if I can do it, anyone can.

And I said Uxie, not Uxie X!

I just feel like...in terms of talking to people about decks, I have seen and experienced so much idea rejection over the years. I understand people have preference, but the point of posting should be [thought of as] discussion, not just a "deck fix"

For some, borrowing may not be an option because

A) People not willing to lend their cards.

and/or

B) Nobody around who has the cards to lend.
Anyways, you do make a very good point. Not everybody has the excuses listed above.


Stupid me made an unfair assumption. I'm sorry.


Excellent point, ditto to what R_A said.

 

[baby mario]

Since this has been highlighted as a primary counterpoint - since when was Pokegym "semi-official"? All that I see that's terribly official about the place are two things: the Team Compendium is endorsed by Pokemon, and some reps from TPCi visit. The latter is awesome, I think it's a huge boon for our voices to get heard somehow.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why the Team Compendium has to make the rest of the site "semi-official". They have their own site: the Compendium Site. I love the ATRT forum as much as the next guy, but it's kind of silly to say the whole forum is official when that's the only "official" part of it. Other than that, the Gym is just a very large place with normal member-driven discussion, normal member-driven trading, and normal member-driven features. There's really not much that's official about it.

I almost wonder if part of the reason ATRT is seen as "official" is that the Rules Team happens to be composed entirely of administrative staff!

It was just a guess (which I did make clear), not a counterpoint. Obviously I have no more idea than you of how things really are between TPCI and the Gym is, or what the deal with the Compendium is.

It just seemed to me that keeping a good relationship is TPCI is probably important to the owners of the Gym . . . and that might mean PG site content.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

.... Let's look at it from a new player's perspective, shall we?

You open up Pokegym from a google search, and you're amazed by the many things. The first thing you see is the announcements about new Black & White stuff, but then you remember you're here to look up pokemon TCG stuff. You then begin to check the card of the day. Looks interesting, as you scan through the reviews. You exit that, and you're in Cards: Strategy and Rulings discussion! You begin to scan through the threads, looking for some shred of information about deck building... And really, you don't find much, beyond people talking about different decks, and how they work. Doesn't tell you the cards, and, really, not much beyond a list of jumble to anyone looking (Seriously, when I first came here, I had to go scanning around to figure out what everything meant). After scanning through this, confused beyond hope, you go see what deck articles have been in the front page content. You see a bunch of deck ideas that explain everything, so you pick one, and work on getting the cards.

Now, after this long thing, let's think: Throughout this, why not make a "Deck building 101" thing stickied up here, so people can understand it, and not ask for a deck? This season's much different, and probably confusing for beginners, so they steal another person's idea. If there were a thread like so, it might help them learn, and make a grand deck of their own. If people just don't see much, or just flat-out not sure how to deck build, they'll try to get someone else to tell them, and use that. So, by teaching someone how to build decks, it could aid them in creating their own masterpiece.

Of course, an article like this would take a LOT of work to do, but SOMEONE might be willing to do it. Think it might be worth it?

** MAN HUG ***

You get it. You REALLY get the perspective issue that I've been having trouble with.

It just seems that there's so much available for people who are already involved in organized tournament play and NOTHING around to help people get started.

OMG! This made my day.

 

[toxictaipan]

I've got a few ideas to help raise the competitive standards of the 'Gym. I've got ACT's coming up next month and need to buckle down hard this month, so it might be slow going.


Basically, I think the current format of the forums is a mess. There needs to be centralized discussion on Archetype decks in one thread. For everyone. If it has to be a Front Page feature article, then it needs to have a good list or else it's going to get ripped to shreds. There's no way around that (hint: yes there is. A discussion about a good archetype with no list is better than a discussion about a good archetype with a bad list. It may not be ideal, but neither is having a bad list. At least you don't have to worry about people flamming the Original Poster over a bad list). There's no reason why there should be countless archetype decks in the Deck help and Strategy section. I can't go into 10 different threads and post the same thing telling 10 different people they're all making the same common mistakes. It's unnecessarily hard on me and that makes me want to contribute less. It'd be easy if I could just dump my experience into one post in one thread to contribute to the whole community at the same time.

The Deck Help and Strategy forum should be used for more original/non-archetype ideas. Changing a few cards or one tech thrown in with your average amateur mistakes doesn't warrant another thread. More focus needs to go on discussion and less on, "help me fix my list," (which is totally different than "BuildMeAList" but is probably worse). New players shouldn't have a bad list in the first place.



Now after you read this next sentence, most of you are going to be headin' for that quick reply button awfully quick, but please hear me out. That being said, NET DECKING IS NOT BAD THING. Let me explain.

When you're learning anything, it doesn't matter what, you need to get your hands on the best quality tools that you can. A computer programmer isn't going to get as much out of his learning if he's using a 10 year old, slow as crap computer and outdated programs. A Pokemon player will not gain as much experience as he could if he's using a bad deck because he was told to "build it himself." If you want to learn, you need to get your hands on the best list possible (and don't feel guilty about copying a deck list from the internet. If they didn't want you to have their list, it wouldn't be publicly posted. :wink BUT you also have to understand how the deck works. It's not auto-pilot just because you got the best list you could, it's just easier to learn from your mistakes since you have less mistakes to worry about from the beginning. You don't have to worry about your deck's consistency, so you can focus on your actual game playing skill. Knowing how to build a good list is useless if you don't know how to play it. Knowing music theory is useless if you can't play an instrument (inb4 DarthPika).

Now, that's not to say that lists you get from the internet don't need any tweaking or that they're the "best list ever," but a decent start is better than a bad one. Don't argue this point, you will lose.



Net decking a bad list isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It's better to have no decks on the front page than have any number of bad ones, even if they're just "fun decks."

When it comes to the Gym's reputation, bad articles are a lot worse than no articles at all.

That. ^


Before you can innovate your own amazing decklist you need to know what you're trying to innovate in the first place. You gotta know the rules before you can break 'em. Starting from scratch and building your own decklist when you don't have the experience to do so isn't going to gain you that experience as fast as taking a good list and thoroughly analyzing and understanding why it's good.





Eh, I'm going on and on here and getting a bit off topic. I better save this for an article.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

The Gym has a number of issues.

...

Many so-called “elite” players have a huge attitude and are every bit as detrimental to player development as the “noobs” who’s advice they mock. I understand where this comes from. Most of the “elites” are young men and women who have worked hard to improve their skills and have won stuff as a result. They feel that they aren’t “getting their due respect” from the “noobs” who don’t acknowledge the results and the work that went into it. What they miss is that “noobs” are usually so new to the game that they don’t know who’s who and that they don’t really have any idea of the work it takes to be a good player. Many “noobs” are just enthusiastic younger players who hunger for acceptance. The “bad advice” they offer is frequently their best attempt to honestly help and thus gain acceptance. Their energy, excitement, and inexperience often prompts them to suggest things that the “elites” would never consider. Yeah, it’s usually just bad advice, but on the other hand “noobs” are a never ending source of creativity. I’ve personally gotten many good ideas from “noobs.” Yeah, I’ve frequently had to refine the ideas myself, but I would be shocked if other good players don’t sometimes do this themselves. However I also bet that most of the “elites” worry that other “elites” would mock them if they ever admitted this … and they don’t think that the “noobs” would respect them if they admitted this either. So of course many of these “elites” just fall back to mocking the “noobs” and pretending that they don’t visit the Gym. And I’m not saying that ALL new ideas come from “noobs” at all. Clearly some of the most innovative new deck ideas have come from well established strong players. SableLock, GeChamp, Destiny, and many many more great decks have been the brainchilds of great players who have sprung them on unprepared metagames. All I’m saying is that not all “noob” ideas are bad and that “elites” whom never interact with them or try out some of these ideas are missing a potential resource.

Constructive suggestion – give the “elites” some way to strut their stuff. Something like a setting to link back to one’s OP ranking so that a high ranking is displayed under the avatar where all the Blog, iTrader, and such are now. There might be a sub-form area where one has to “apply” for membership and entrance is based on some standard criteria like rank or winning a large event within the past 2 years. Those select members could post and others would simply have read. Or instead of a sub-forum you could have a “Winner!” tag much like the current professor tag for those who have won events. Maybe the color could be based on the biggest type of event won. Bottom line is that giving the “elites” something to feel good about will bring them to the gym more and will give those “noobs” a way to see who the good players are without accidentally stepping on toes.

...

I think that Pokémon players as a whole over-value creative ideas and the players who run “rogue” decks. Only a certain number of cards in any given set are really good. It’s inevitable that the game will gravitate towards a number of stable good decks … the archetypes that define the metagame. Of course most players are going to play those decks if they are trying to win. It’s only common sense. While “rogue” decks can counter the meta and eventually become archetypes themselves it seems to me that nearly everyone wants to be the guy or gal who invented that next surprise archetype and that too many people say things like “he not a boring player, he always runs rogue” with admiration. OK, yes, creativity is good … but that’ doesn’t mean that conformity is bad. IMHO many folks in the community at large, and thus a large portion of the Gym, needs to end the worship of the alter of rogue decks. Sure, give someone props for a cool idea that works … but the endless bashing of archetypes and the people who play them needs to end.

Constructive suggestion – The “archetypes” area needs to be reinvigorated. Unfortunately the “front page” area has become the new “archetypes” area and neither area gets the traffic that the archetypes forum used to have. It might be cool to have a sticky post there that has info gathered from the “what won BRs / Cities / etc.” type threads so that new players can go to the archetype section and see that LuxChomp won 142 BRs (75%), 78 Cities (60%), etc. for a given season. That would give them a good idea of what is winning and why. Only decks that had official threads in the forum would have their stats listed in the sticky post.

...

Finally the mods are a huge issue for the Gym. Honestly, even as a 42 year old parent who has judged events myself, I’m embarrassed by the apparent hostility that the folks who run the games and mod the gym seem to have for the players. Every time a player says “wouldn’t it be cool if….” some mod comes down and smacks him saying “we can’t do that.” The implicit message is always “Shut your mouth and don’t bother me.” I hate it. Similarly whenever a player mentions a problem they had there is an automatic defensive reaction by many mods. It always feels like the “blue wall of silence” as mods/judges essentially say “Shut your mouth, you just don’t understand. It couldn’t possibly be as bad as you say.” I get it that some folks are troublemakers and not every new idea is feasible … but I’m embarrassed to be a member of the gym given all of these posts. I wish that just once some judge would say, “That sounds bad. I hope you reported it to P!P. Do you have any constructive suggestion on how things might be made better next time?” Simple customer service type stuff to make people feel better. The non-troublemakers who read the defensive “blue wall” posts lose respect for the judges and the game as a whole IMHO … and even moreso for the Gym as a community. Similarly I’ve lost count of the number of complaints I’ve seen from young players who have gotten infringements and even bans that seem a bit shaky to me. Sure some are getting LESS than they deserve, but overall the Gym seems “overmoderated” to me now as opposed to how it was when I joined.

Constructive suggestion – Mods need to tone it down. I think that mods ought to have a “code of conduct” and that there should be a formal list of penalties for various infractions that everyone, even non-mods, can see. Mod responses to problems should be based on standards that everyone understands – that’s clearly not the way it is now. Different Mods have very different reactions to various things. Similarly I think that P!P should work on the “customer skills” of their judges every bit as much as they are working on getting them all on the same page for rulings and whatnot.

 

[EeveeLover]

In the bottom of every single page on this site is a link to The Rules of the site.

That has been there since I joined the site in 2004. We have never hid them from anyone.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

In the bottom of every single page on this site is a link to The Rules of the site.

That has been there since I joined the site in 2004. We have never hid them from anyone.

This is not enough. There is no detail. You don't have to put a deatailed list of x points per y infraction in "the rules" ... but it needs to be somewhere. As it is now some mods do one thing for an infraction and other mods so something else.

 

[Rogue Archetype]

The Gym has a number of issues.
... (and a whole lot of good insightful stuff here).

Vandy! Wow. Am I glad that you took the time to drop in.

So well articulated. Thanks man.

I could, probably, lock the thread after that post!

I mean, what more is there to be said?

At some point this weekend, I'm going to comb through this entire thread, reflect on all things mentioned, and generate some sort of a checklist/to-do list

I'd like to continue getting everyone involved on this strategy forum makeover project because there's just no way I'm going to get it right singlehandedly.

It's like we got to slug it out and hug it out in here, and I truly appreciate those who took a minute to lay their thoughts on the table.

When I'm ready to take this to the next level, I'm going to LOCK this thread and focus a new conversation on actions/steps that could be implemented seemlessly.

 

[EeveeLover]

And at the bottom of the rules, is this link.

That should answer all your questions regarding infractions and points.

btw, that has been there since 2004 as well.

The mods follow that format.

 

[ShadowCard]

RA, it was Prime who said that people turn away from PokeGym and make their own sites to offer advice. I was adding to his comment.

1. Some of the mods are kids. They're just SO mature that you haven't noticed. LucarioEX is a kid that really does a GREAT job shooting ME a PM whenever I've typed something with foot-in-mouth potential.

You should probably expect a PM from her soon, if you haven't gotten one already. She's not really a kid anymore, although people like us--who are in our early 20s :wink:--may still think she is

2. If you don't understand why something got locked, shoot a PM (heck, if you don't understand ANYTHING, shoot a PM!). I've locked, then unlocked threads lots of times. I may have read something wrong, been grumpy that day, whatever ... So, if it doesn't make sense, just ask in a PM and I'll either tell you what's up or realize I've screwed up and unlock it...lol

RA, I really think you do not understand because you are different. For example, coming from tournaments run by totoro for a long time, which are very clean-cut and organized, I simply don't get it when people tell me stories of TOs running events differently. This lack of understanding impacts the kind of advice and the way I see things. Not to say that your perspective is rose-colored, but it sounds like you missed the point that you are the exception on PokeGym, not the rule.

ALOT of things can be avoided/allieviated through COMMUNICATION. It's like the members are complaining to EACH OTHER and the Mods are in-the-dark. That's like having a teacher that nobody likes, but the TEACHER is the only one aware of this. At some point, you've gotta send a note or SOMETHING to that teacher and give them a head's up or the problems just continue.

Oh, the mods who are not popular definitely know it. Having moderated a forum, I know that you learn whether or not you are respected or not and why. Plus, this topic has come up before, but like Jaeger said, if PokeGym isn't willing to change then any suggestions are really just the contributors waiting until the first moderator gets angry and starts giving out warnings.

If you need further elaboration, reread EeveeLover's posts (not really name-dropping, I'm referencing his posts). He is not connecting with the posters here like you are. He cannot be reasoned with, he's not even trying to communicate. He's trying to justify his position. Then look at yours. There's a difference, and the members here have noticed it. You two are replying to the same criticism, that the mods are too aggressive/subjective/detached or the rules have not grown with the players, but in very different ways. (props to EeveeLover for stepping into the thread, btw)

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

And at the bottom of the rules, is this link.

That should answer all your questions regarding infractions and points.

btw, that has been there since 2004 as well.

The mods follow that format.

This is a good thing … and I’ll freely admit that I didn’t know about it. However my perception remains. Enforcement appears to be uneven on the gym. Different mods seem to take different approaches to solving issues on the gym. Sure I could be wrong in fact, but my perception is my perception and telling me that I’m wrong isn’t really going to change that.

To change minds takes effort and involves reaching out. Just giving facts often doesn’t do anything constructive.

If you need further elaboration, reread EeveeLover's posts (not really name-dropping, I'm referencing his posts). He is not connecting with the posters here like you are. He cannot be reasoned with, he's not even trying to communicate. He's trying to justify his position. Then look at yours. There's a difference, and the members here have noticed it. You two are replying to the same criticism, that the mods are too aggressive/subjective/detached or the rules have not grown with the players, but in very different ways. (props to EeveeLover for stepping into the thread, btw)

I do have to agree with this somewhat EeveeLover. There is no discussion in your post. What it FEELS like to me when I read your posts is, “You are wrong and I’m right. End of discussion. Your post is invalid.” I don’t feel like a part of a community when I read those posts. I feel like someone being scolded for questions the wisdom of my betters. It makes me want to avoid the gym in the future so that I don’t have to feel bad.

 

[Bolt]

Many so-called “elite” players have a huge attitude and are every bit as detrimental to player development as the “noobs” who’s advice they mock.

I personally feel like "elite" and "noob" are more of mindsets and not labels that we shouldn't apply to individuals. There are plenty of players out there who would not be considered on the elite level treating others like they have that "status advantage," if you will.

 

[ShadowCard]

It just seems that there's so much available for people who are already involved in organized tournament play and NOTHING around to help people get started.

I really don't know how to reply to this. I was under the same impression but was told that there are many sites that deal with beginner's information and deck help information. Is this opinion misinformed?

 

[Melee Mewtwo]

Isn't there a deck building article stickied in the deck help forum?