Shuffling Your Opponent's Deck

[ogremarauder]

It's more amusing to me when someone shuffles my deck....There's a player at my league who does this, and it seems a bit ridiculous most of the time considering:

A) I run the league, I have more to lose than anyone if I stacked my deck
B) I don't have to stack my deck to win
C) What do you accomplish with a shuffle over a cut? My deck is randomized after both, so why waste both of our time.

The ONLY time I can see shuffling your opponents deck are when they literally do 1-2 mash shuffles which is insufficient. If you just watch me shuffle for 20-30 seconds, don't take another 15-25 to shuffle them again. I WILL cut it and continue my turn.

The best remedy to an opponent shuffling your deck is shuffle theirs EVERY time and keep a prize lead. They'll cut it out when they see they are going to lose on time because they're more concerned with shuffling your deck.

As the 'guy who always shuffles', I'll say that I always shuffle EVERYONE'S deck , not just yours.It has nothing to do with 'time'. It is a habit of tcg playing that should be ingrained into everyones play habits, as it is a PART OF THE RULES and SHOULD BE part of the rules. If time is an issue, then the time restrictions should be rigidly enforced. I shuffle my opponents deck like 2 or 3 times and I am positive it only takes about ten seconds to do. Otherwise we all need to lobby the sanctioning body to exend match rounds back to 40-45 minutes like it was before. This would allow for people to actually have the time to play the game ,with the rules we have, in a proper fashion.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

Cut=shuffle, nuff' said.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[evil psyduck]

Cut=shuffle, nuff' said.
Posted with Mobile style...

A cut DOES NOT = a shuffle. nuff said.

 

[Team CREAM]

I do believe that cut=cut, according to the reflexive property.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

A cut DOES NOT = a shuffle. nuff said.

Cutting the deck prevents someone from cheating. Which is the purpose of shuffling, correct? So..
A cut=shuffle, that's enough said imo.

Like I said before, if people want to complain about others de-clumping, then we the people against our opponent shuffling our deck can say we do not like it, nor need it.

Cutting a deck is more than enough to randomize an opponents deck to prevent him/her from cheating.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[psychup2034]

Cutting a deck is more than enough to randomize an opponents deck to prevent him/her from cheating.

While what you said sounds right because cutting and shuffling both "randomize" the deck in some way, the level of randomization achieved by cutting and shuffling are completely different. The best way to illustrate this is through an example.

Let's assume that Player A has an active Cyndaquil HS with no energy, and Player B has an active Totodile HS with 10 HP left. After assessing your game state, you realize that you need to attach a Fire energy card to Cyndaquil to knock out your opponent's active Totodile and draw your final prize. You have determined that this is your only way to win. Now you use Professor Oak's New Theory. PONT was the only card in your hand, and you have 10 cards left in your deck.

Now let's assume we know the exact order of cards in your deck.

1. Fire Energy
2. Quilava HS
3. Pokegear 3.0
4. Sage's Training
5. Rare Candy
6. Fire Energy
7. Rare Candy
8. Ninetails HS
9. Professor Juniper
10. Sage's Training

In this situation, there is a huge difference between cutting and shuffling. If you only cut your deck once, you will be able to get a Fire energy and win 100% of the time! That is because cutting the deck once doesn't provide enough randomization to prevent cheating. As the Fire energies are the 1st and 6th cards, the top 6 cards of your deck will always contain at least 1 Fire energy in this situation if you only cut the deck once.

If you give the deck a good shuffle instead (7 riffles, for example), the deck would be more randomized and the goal of preventing cheating would be better accomplished.

I hope this example shows you why cutting and shuffling are different because they achieve different levels of randomization.

Cutting the deck prevents someone from cheating. Which is the purpose of shuffling, correct? So..
A cut=shuffle, that's enough said imo.

I think a good analogy here would be this:

Washing your hands often helps prevent someone from getting a disease. Which is the purpose of a vaccine, correct? So...
Washing your hands often=vaccine, that's enough said imo.

Washing your hands frequently is one way to prevent yourself from getting sick, but hand washing doesn't even come close to the level of prevention that getting a vaccine would provide. Similarly, cutting a deck is one way to randomize your opponent's deck, but cutting doesn't even come close to the level of randomization that shuffling a deck would provide.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

You can break down numbers, but imo a cut is more than sufficent enough to randomize/prevent your opponent from cheating.

I just dislike how its ok for your opponent to shuffle your deck and waste time, but for you to Declump your deck is guaranteed stalling and cheating.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[psychup2034]

You can break down numbers, but imo a cut is more than sufficent enough to randomize/prevent your opponent from cheating.

I just gave you an example of a situation where a cut is not sufficient enough to prevent your opponent from cheating...

Let's assume that Player A has an active Cyndaquil HS with no energy, and Player B has an active Totodile HS with 10 HP left. After assessing your game state, you realize that you need to attach a Fire energy card to Cyndaquil to knock out your opponent's active Totodile and draw your final prize. You have determined that this is your only way to win. Now you use Professor Oak's New Theory. PONT was the only card in your hand, and you have 10 cards left in your deck.

Now let's assume we know the exact order of cards in your deck.

1. Fire Energy
2. Quilava HS
3. Pokegear 3.0
4. Sage's Training
5. Rare Candy
6. Fire Energy
7. Rare Candy
8. Ninetails HS
9. Professor Juniper
10. Sage's Training

In this situation, there is a huge difference between cutting and shuffling. If you only cut your deck once, you will be able to get a Fire energy and win 100% of the time! That is because cutting the deck once doesn't provide enough randomization to prevent cheating. As the Fire energies are the 1st and 6th cards, the top 6 cards of your deck will always contain at least 1 Fire energy in this situation if you only cut the deck once.

If you give the deck a good shuffle instead (7 riffles, for example), the deck would be more randomized and the goal of preventing cheating would be better accomplished.

I hope this example shows you why cutting and shuffling are different because they achieve different levels of randomization.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

You can give me 40 examples, it won't matter to me. A cut is more than sufficent for me. As it should for most, your example is just situational. Your opponent shuffles their deck, you simply cut the deck, you mess with their supposed "cheating." This is a silly thing to argue over, I have my opinion, you have yours.


It also NOT just about the randomization, its about the SotG. Are we to always assume everyone is cheating? Is this what we tell our kids that play at a young age? "Oh little Timmy, make sure you shuffle your opponents deck, they are prolly cheating*insert smiley face*." See where this is going, your example is mute really, 2 fire in a 10 card deck, drawing 6 cards, chances are they will draw a fire no matter what unless YOU cheat with their shuffle, especially if they have reverse holo energies that are slightly warped. So basically you can shuffle and FORCE the energy to the bottom to cheat, but I can simply cut my deck after your shuffle to sheet myself. See where this is going...no matter how we are shuffling, who is shuffling, in the end we are all cheating. Here I thought this was a kids game in which we are meant to have fun. If this was a serious game, a game in which thousands upon thousands are on the line, id understand. This is NOT that type of game, this isn't magic, you can't make a living off of it. So if this game's big slogan is SotG, how about we start enforcing it and stop being the ones who force SotG to be a joke.

Maybe all these "my opponent is cheating because I have this view about the matter threads" should stop. It doesn't help the game, it sures the heck doesn't promote this game. If we want to be the Yugioh atmosphere, then we are on the right track. If we want to be the Pokemon Atmosphere, then let's enforce SotG which is what Pokemon is all about.

Posted with Mobile style...

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

It's perfectly fine to cut the deck, and if you feel that it isn't essential then that's perfectly fine, but also understand that not everyone feels this way, and the shuffle over the cut is the reason for this.

 

[psychup2034]

It also NOT just about the randomization, its about the SotG. Are we to always assume everyone is cheating? Is this what we tell our kids that play at a young age? "Oh little Timmy, make sure you shuffle your opponents deck, they are prolly cheating*insert smiley face*."

I certainly don't assume any of my opponents are cheating unless I have evidence that indicates otherwise. In higher stakes tournaments, I shuffle my opponents' decks during setup and sporadically throughout the games, especially in top cut. It's just habit at this point.

Actually, I think that we should teach kids to shuffle their opponents' decks, especially as a precautionary measure. We teach our kids to not respond to doorbells without their parents around. Do you think that parents who teach that to their kids assume that everyone who rings the doorbell is going to harm them? Certainly not. It's just a precautionary measure. As a parent, you don't want to run that 1% chance that whoever at the door is a shady character.

Similarly, shuffling your opponent's deck is just a precautionary measure. You don't want to run that 1% chance that whoever you're playing has stacked his/her deck.

See where this is going, your example is mute really, 2 fire in a 10 card deck, drawing 6 cards, chances are they will draw a fire no matter what unless YOU cheat with their shuffle, especially if they have reverse holo energies that are slightly warped. So basically you can shuffle and FORCE the energy to the bottom to cheat, but I can simply cut my deck after your shuffle to sheet myself.

The appropriate action to take when your opponent has warped holo energies is to call a judge. If the judge determines that certain cards are indeed "marked" because of their natural warp, the judge may ask the player to bend his/her cards back such that they are indistinguishable from the rest of the deck. (This is from personal experience.)

Maybe all these "my opponent is cheating because I have this view about the matter threads" should stop. It doesn't help the game, it sures the heck doesn't promote this game. If we want to be the Yugioh atmosphere, then we are on the right track. If we want to be the Pokemon Atmosphere, then let's enforce SotG which is what Pokemon is all about.

I disagree that having open and constructive discussion (such as this thread) doesn't help the game. I don't think that a "Pokemon Atmosphere" would involve players keeping all of their concerns to themselves, while never talking about them in public. As long as discussions remain respectful and don't turn into flame wars, I believe that they are healthy for the game.

Ironically, misappropriating SotG arguments to discourage discussions about he game is, in my opinion, very much against the SotG. :frown:

 

[SteveP]

Those who don't like their opponents to shuffle their decks, or are "amuzed" by this behavior probably have NO CLUE that the tournament rules actually ADVISE players to shuffle their opponents' decks during premier events.
Read the tournament rules about shuffling if you don't believe me.

 

[JimboPro]

Those who don't like their opponents to shuffle their decks, or are "amuzed" by this behavior probably have NO CLUE that the tournament rules actually ADVISE players to shuffle their opponents' decks during premier events.
Read the tournament rules about shuffling if you don't believe me.

This is completely false statement... I know it is legal and it is advised, but I still don't like my opponent shuffling my deck... Still no one has answered my question from a previous post... Who is gonna replace my $30 card if they ruin it? The judge, PTO, other player, or am I? This has happenen to me and I never got my card replaced so that is why I am agaisnt it!
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[Pokeplayer101]

Can I have the link where it says the Shuffling Rules?

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

This is completely false statement... I know it is legal and it is advised, but I still don't like my opponent shuffling my deck... Still no one has answered my question from a previous post... Who is gonna replace my $30 card if they ruin it? The judge, PTO, other player, or am I? This has happenen to me and I never got my card replaced so that is why I am agaisnt it!
Posted with Mobile style...

They're your sleeves, so you should be using sleeves that you are fine with losing. If you want to use them and want to protect them further I recommended double sleeving with penny sleeves earlier, and it does work. It's cheap and easy to replace. Remember that nice sleeves are just an accessory and you could easily use cheaper sleeves, double sleeve or even not sleeve. (The last of which is is highly undesirable.

 

[psychup2034]

...the tournament rules actually ADVISE players to shuffle their opponents' decks during premier events. Read the tournament rules about shuffling if you don't believe me.

This is completely false statement... I know it is legal and it is advised...

errr.... :nonono:

Still no one has answered my question from a previous post... Who is gonna replace my $30 card if they ruin it? The judge, PTO, other player, or am I? This has happenen to me and I never got my card replaced so that is why I am agaisnt it!

I want preface my answer by saying that in my 12 years of playing this game, I have never ruined a sleeved card when shuffling beyond the microscopic amount of damage that normal shuffling would inflict upon a card. I never riffle shuffle a deck. A healthy combination of weave shuffling mixed with cutting achieves the same result when done correctly. Moreover, I've also never had an opponent ruin any of my cards when shuffling in the hundreds of tournaments I've participated in.

Now to answer your question. If your opponent ruins a $30 card of yours when he or she is shuffling your deck, you are generally responsible for replacing it, except in extreme circumstances (like when your opponent agrees to replace it, or when the damage was intentional). Accidents happen, it's part of life.

You might not be pleased with this answer, but if you think about it, that's kind of how life works. A little kid on a bike accidentally runs into your leg and gives you a small cut. Are you going to sue his parents demanding compensation for your injury? The truck driving in front of you on the highway kicks up a small rock that puts a small dent in your hood. Are you going to sue him demanding that he pay for a new coat of paint? Things happen all the time that may cause you some inconvenience, whether physically or financially. Although unfortunate, sometimes we just have to deal with it.

That being said, I think that asking my opponents to weave shuffle (instead of riffling) is completely acceptable. I have never played an opponent who insisted on riffle shuffling my deck and would not accept weave shuffling as an alternative.

Ruining a $30 card would definitely be a concern, and I understand why you're upset that it happened to you. In the grander scheme of things, however, it just doesn't happen frequently enough to warrant changing the rules about allowing opponents to shuffle each others' decks.

---------- Post added 11/08/2011 at 12:51 PM ----------

Can I have the link where it says the Shuffling Rules?

Of course you can!
http://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cm.../2011/Pokemon_Tournament_Rules_EN-1-31-11.pdf

20. Shuffling

Each player’s deck is expected to be fully randomized at the start of each game and during the game, as card effects require. In order to achieve randomness, players are allowed to riffle, pile, or otherwise shuffle their decks until they are satisfied that the deck is random. Randomization must be done in the presence of the player’s opponent and must be done in a reasonable amount of time. Care should be taken to assure that the cards in the deck are not harmed or revealed during the shuffle.

After the shuffle, the deck must be offered to the player’s opponent to be cut once. Cutting the deck consists of creating two separate stacks of cards by removing a portion of the top of the deck, and then placing it under the remaining portion. Players should take care to not reveal any of their opponent’s cards while cutting. Cutting into more than two stacks is considered a shuffle.

Instead of cutting, the opponent may choose to shuffle the deck. This shuffle should be brief, and when it concludes, the deck’s owner is allowed to cut the deck once as described above. Players should take care when shuffling an opponent’s deck, as the cards in that deck are not the shuffling player’s property. At this point, the deck should be sufficiently randomized to both players’ satisfaction.

If either player still does not feel that either deck is sufficiently randomized, or if a player wishes to not offer his or her deck to an opponent for randomization, a judge must be called over to shuffle the deck(s) in question. No player is allowed to shuffle or cut after the judge’s shuffle.

Players engaging in questionable shuffling methods may be subject to the Unsporting Conduct section of the Penalty Guidelines. Players are strongly encouraged to shuffle their opponent’s deck at Premier Events.

 

[SteveP]

This is completely false statement... I know it is legal and it is advised, but I still don't like my opponent shuffling my deck... Still no one has answered my question from a previous post... Who is gonna replace my $30 card if they ruin it? The judge, PTO, other player, or am I? This has happenen to me and I never got my card replaced so that is why I am agaisnt it!

Buy card insurance!

If someone dings my car, I don't get a new or replacement car.

How bad was it ruined? Was it no longer playable? If you expected it to remain in mint condition, keep it in your collection, out of decks.

 

[Otaku]

This thread is starting to make me miss the declumping thread. At least there I legitimately understood both sides.

The only remotely valid point is the concern of your opponent cheating you and for your property being stolen/damaged.

The former is mitigated by the fact that without this rule, you're worse off against a cheat. Such a player will find it almost impossible to blind shuffle your deck in a manner to sabotage you, while you'll constantly be able to blind shuffle to thwart said player's attempts at cheating. When it comes down to risk of theft (while shuffling your deck) versus cheating (while shuffling his or her own deck) might be open to debate.

As for your cards being damaged, that is unfortunately a real part of the game: what is an opponent shuffling roughly once versus the risk of you slipping while carefully shuffling dozens of times during a single tournament? The common sense approach is simple, but likely unpopular. Don't pay more for a card than you are willing to risk losing due to the card unfortunately being damaged. You have little choice but to do this and accept the constraints it may place upon your deck building or accept the risk of a card being damaged. I have learned there is always a risk of damage for any sufficient form of shuffling.

Seriously, one time my deck sleeves caught each other and I folded a card while pile shuffling. >.>

 

[PokePop]

You can give me 40 examples, it won't matter to me. A cut is more than sufficent for me. As it should for most, your example is just situational. Your opponent shuffles their deck, you simply cut the deck, you mess with their supposed "cheating." This is a silly thing to argue over, I have my opinion, you have yours.

Don't confuse you with the facts, eh? :wink:

When one side presents facts and example and the other side just states "it's just a matter of opinion", who should we give more weight to?

 

[watters]

Ok i don't know why this shuffle thing is a big issue because the opponent has the right to shuffle your deck simple as that and by the way it doesn't matter what sleeves you got i really think that u can have the coolest sleeves in the tournament and the worlds mat and all that stuff but if ur deck is not consistent it will fail and i can guarantee that a humble dude with some pink deck pro sleeves with no mat will beat ur deck with 50 dolars japanese pikachu sleeves and your super mega mat and by the end of the game the only thing you r going to hear is like :'' good game man! cool sleeves by the way'' lol yeah go home and try the next year... lol