IHateJuice
New Member
lol, good argument. /Sarcasm
my Q still stands.
my Q still stands.
Suggestion to Play! Pokemon re 2011 World Championship Decks: Print Tropical Beach!
- Thread starter Cyrus
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psychup2034
New Member
Not every card should be cheap, but every card should be available to the masses.
A playable card that has under 1,000 copies available for the tens of thousands of Pokemon players is not "available to the masses." In fact, it almost the exact opposite.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
Good question. Although I said I was going to hop out of this thread since all of my major points have been made, this is an important topic to address.
"Why should every card be cheap and available to the masses?"
That's the thing, Juice: few, if any, people in this thread are saying that. Since we're paying more than $0.25 on booster packs as-is, I think we've all come to grips that this game is not "cheap," and would for the most part disagree with the idea that every card should be cheap and available to the masses.
However, as I said, that's not the question we're asking. the true question revolving around Tropical Beach should be formulated as,
"Should every playable, legal card not have an extremely limited print run?"
Take into account the fact that there are very few copies of this card total, let alone the number of legal copies, as well as the number of copies that will get into collectors' hands and never enter the playing pool. As for those "top 32/16/8/4/2" promos? Many of those will never be traded or even loaned out because their owners will justifiably want to hold onto them for forever.
Once you start cranking out the numbers, a startlingly low number of Tropical Beaches are actually available for tournament play. So even if one Tropical Beach was all that every deck needed, it would still vastly distort the game.
$20-$40 Magnezones and Yanmegas are one thing, but I believe you cross the line once your extremely limited promos start soaring. Even if this card isn't a staple/"that" good, it has the clear and imminent potential to be good. Because all branches of Pokemon organized play have made it clear that deciding winners shouldn't be based on who has the most disposable income, a reprint decision seems solid.
P.S. Psychup, it probably has a few thousand copies total - not under 1,000. Even the English version should have at least 1,500 or so copies out there. However, you may be closer to the mark when it comes to the number that will realistically be available for use by anyone...Which is very, very low.
Otaku
Active Member
Because frankly I find it unethical. You want an answer, you got it. If I am spending that much on a single card, the game is clearly too resource intensive and overly self indulgent. I already pointed out there are plenty of other, valuable hobbies I could pursue that are less expensive and just as likely (if not more so) to provide me not only with fun but allow me to grow as a person. Even if I wanted to blow it on pure fluff, $90 for a piece of cardboard is pretty stupid unless its guaranteed to make that money back or turn a profit.
Like I said though, that's just too much to be spending on myself if I had the money. Kind of something you're ignoring. You've now admitted that it is a lot of money but still assume even major players can afford it up front. Not every good player buys boxes of each set. Some simply are smart traders and invest shrewdly in what sets they buy. They then evaluate the cards and trade, trade, trade for most or all of what they need. One might be able to argue for someone who has already qualified for worlds to drop serious money to ensure they've got a deck worth bringing, but remember that the tournament structure is such that being a good player with a good deck does not guarantee you're going to Worlds. You might have bad luck or you might simply be crowded out: World's doesn't have unlimited capacity.
Lastly, remember that the only reason this card is rare is because TPC is making it rare. Whatever it cost them to design has already been spent, and actually making a normal TCG card is fairly inexpensive. I know that at least before I moved, my local comic and gaming hobby shop (Mayhem Collectibles in both Ames,IA and Des Moines, IA) was staying afloat on TCG sales, and why many non-TCG card shops started converting over. Boosters have a healthy profit margin for the seller.
Obviously ethics are something that one can literally dismiss if one doesn't share them. Fortunately Cyrus answered the question from a more pragmatic point of view. I will add that I sometimes with TPC made more money upfront and left less to the secondary market. I'd love to see rarity be about nothing more than special treatments or alternate artwork for cards.
K2theAblaM
New Member
This has got to be the most ignorant post I've ever read on this board. ever.
Patsfan112892
New Member
agreed this game is targeted at kids
kid DONT have jobs to be spending 80-90 on one piece of paper
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
I don't think you should take those posts too seriously.
I'm still neutral on this. I don't mind if they reprint it (I never sell my Worlds cards anyway so the value isn't relevant to me), but I don't think it's a big loss if they don't.
I'm still neutral on this. I don't mind if they reprint it (I never sell my Worlds cards anyway so the value isn't relevant to me), but I don't think it's a big loss if they don't.
Otaku
Active Member
I suppose that's a fair point, baby mario, but that kind of talk is far too much of a "Yu-Gi-Oh" attitude for me to be too comfortable with it. I find this game taking on what I consider the worst aspect many TCGs to be both worse than many recent panics and far more likely to be a realistic problem as well.
Of course being a three day old account means I should also cut him/her some slack...
Of course being a three day old account means I should also cut him/her some slack...
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I have to agree with Otaku. The effective playability of the promo card aside, exclusive promos are A Bad Thing (tm). I don't mind chase cards (I still play Yu-Gi-Oh! after all), but promos that are legal to play and given out to a handful of players are bad for the game - there's a reason all of the Yu-Gi-Oh! World Championship promos are not legal for play in duels, and that's one of them.
Of course, while I wouldn't mind seeing this solved by stampless reprints, I would personally just ban the card from sanctioned play.
Of course, while I wouldn't mind seeing this solved by stampless reprints, I would personally just ban the card from sanctioned play.
After testing with it, the card's not even that good in basically every deck. The Vileplume/Reuniclus deck runs perfectly fine without it and I dropped the card pretty quickly. I don't see what the big issue here is. Yanmegas are going for 45 each, but nobody's even complaining about those. Most kids can't afford that either, yet they're 10 times more playable than this card.
If you're going to make a statement about "kids", either define "kids" or drop your discussion on playability. The issue is the availability of a card, not it's potential impact on the game, tested or not.
Kids, generally, just want to play. And when kids play, they like playing their favorite cards and pokemon. The card in question has several starter pokemon in the image, in addition to being one of the few playable (as in quantity, not quality) stadiums. Yanmega Prime may go for 45$, but that's entirely due to playability (quality here) and it's shy sleeper rare status it had since it's release through Rotation (It was an obtainable card for roughly 8 months) and any kid that wanted Yanmega Prime got one while it was under $5. The stadium was never that low or that easily obtainable.
CMsvW
New Member
If the new beach had different artwork, the old one would retain its value. Promos (usually) aren't pricey because of their playability. They are pricey BECAUSE THEY ARE RARE.
Make the card a regular promo, players get a new card to play with, collectors still have their money card.
Make the card a regular promo, players get a new card to play with, collectors still have their money card.
I thought the whole issue here is that the younger players (Seniors/Juniors) and some older ones can't afford the card. Isn't the entire reason people want to reprint the card?
How are you even relating my two statements? I was stating the card was not very playable. Then I was pointing out that other more playable cards have not had these kinds of threads for them despite having a close price to this card. I made two separate statements. By kids, I meant Juniors and Seniors. But I know a lot of masters don't want to invest 100 dollars on the card either.
Worlds promos should be hard to get. Period. There shouldn't even be debate about that. The promos are given to those people who worked incredibly hard over the season. They should be given for bragging rights and nothing more. If the cards were available to the general public, getting one wouldn't even be special. Now what, do you want Tropical Wind reprints too? It's like getting Victory Medal at a Battle Roads. It's not a playable card (or at least not right now) but it's just a reminder of an achievement.
If the worlds card is playable though, it's an entirely different issue. Because then it gives an unfair advantage to an already elite group of players and the rich. That is bad for the game. Having hard to get promos is not bad for the game.
How are you even relating my two statements? I was stating the card was not very playable. Then I was pointing out that other more playable cards have not had these kinds of threads for them despite having a close price to this card. I made two separate statements. By kids, I meant Juniors and Seniors. But I know a lot of masters don't want to invest 100 dollars on the card either.
Worlds promos should be hard to get. Period. There shouldn't even be debate about that. The promos are given to those people who worked incredibly hard over the season. They should be given for bragging rights and nothing more. If the cards were available to the general public, getting one wouldn't even be special. Now what, do you want Tropical Wind reprints too? It's like getting Victory Medal at a Battle Roads. It's not a playable card (or at least not right now) but it's just a reminder of an achievement.
If the worlds card is playable though, it's an entirely different issue. Because then it gives an unfair advantage to an already elite group of players and the rich. That is bad for the game. Having hard to get promos is not bad for the game.
Bolded responses.Figured it'd be easier that way to avoid confusion.
Otaku
Active Member
No. This is a longer thread now (though not yet gargantuan), so I can understand your confusion. I'll re-state my point, which seems to be more common amongst those repeatedly posting that they want the card reprinted. Yes I am going to bold it for emphasis, since too many people I know skim (myself if I am being stupid and trying to read when I don't have time).
The fact that this card is a "unique" exclusive is the core issue. Note that the actual quality of the effect is not the issue, but rather the underlying principal of card availability and fact that there is no such thing as a "safe card" in a good, creative TCG.
In other words, I don't care if the card is junk: I've had kooky decks that could make decent use of "bad cards" before, and some were surprisingly potent. While it won't do me much good (no money for new cards, won't be changing for a long time), I do care about other people and their enjoyment of the game, as well as the overall health of the game.
I am fine with exclusive cards, or even "early release" cards as promos as well. It's when the card is an exclusive (available through an extremely limited means) and is "unique" (there isn't another version of the card available, or even a different name, same effect option though that can still cause problems).
First, no one is saying to hand out the exact same promo, or if someone is please point them out so I may explain that it is indeed good to have a reward for working hard and that this is the most cost efficient, logical way for a TCG producer to do so. If someone did make that argument, okay, but if no one made that argument, you're setting up something of a strawman to knock down. Now look at what you said:
By that logic a World's Exclusive Promo should always be a special artwork version of an extremely common card or illegal for Modified play, because then owning it is purely for bragging rights. Anything else is goes beyond mere bragging rights. I will remind you I am fine with it being any pre-existing, legal to play card (or early release of an upcoming card) and not just commons but I am sticking to your stated line of reasoning, not mine.
You're ignoring that we are calling for an unstamped reprint, and/or a card with different artwork, and we might even accept a "different name, same effect" due to the extremely low probability of anyone needing eight copies of this exact effect, though that really only works in certain situations and I wouldn't want it to set a future precedent. Also a point repeatedly made in this thread.
Is the original release still Modified legal? If yes, then I would indeed like to see it re-released. Are there multiple releases of it? Yes, however each release was fairly small, and done in such a way as to make it a memento/souvenir and as such I am certain many people wouldn't want to part with it or even play it themselves, making it still quite scarce.
Again, I have repeatedly stated the relative quality or power of the card is not the point. Plus in the past I've had decks that could have made good use of it: the nature of this game is that no card is guaranteed to never be useful.
Purely a hypothetical, but imagine if TPC had decided Reshiram and Zekrom needed an ability, but didn't want to give them something too potent, so they decided on Thick Skin. Bam! Now Tropical Wind at least could be worth a one-of in many decks because either it healed 20 points of damage or just the Defending Pokemon would be put to Sleep; when you're hitting for 120 points of damage a turn healing 20 off the opponent is no big deal, and unless its against a Baby Sleep can still be useful. An even more hypothetical example would be if any of the various "Dream Eater" using Pokemon were quite good: with Junk Arm to spam it, again Tropical Wind suddenly becomes a playable card.
The good news is that this was once again more widely distributed: to the point that it might not be a serious challenge to amass a copy (or play set). If that is the case, then its fine. Again though, just because the effect isn't great doesn't mean it would never be of use, and there are always potential combos looming out there, as outlined above. In fact, this one is even easier: we just need an effect that manipulates at least one coin flip or stacks the deck. Smooth Over Magcargo, for example when combined with this card gives you a 75% chance of getting the exact card you need. Its not FireRed/LeafGreen Pidgeot but it ain't bad.
Here's the thing: Pokemon is an ever changing game and one format's binder fodder can be the next format's staples. So by its nature, you are never guaranteed a promo like this intentionally designed not to be "good" won't eventually be part of a good combo or find a void to fill. Even some of the most horrendous effects might lead to an unintentional combo. For example, say they released a Trainer called "Spirit of the Game" that stated "Your opponent takes a Prize." That would never be worth playing right?
Except both in the past, currently, and in upcoming sets (we've gotten glimpses of) we know that there are cards that reward a player for being "behind" in Prizes. They are meant to prevent lopsided battles and mitigate some of the luck inherent to the game, but the best players (namely the ones getting my hypothetical World's Promo in this example) would be the ones getting it, and it could actually lead to brutal control decks. Your opponent thinks they are doing great as you spam "Spirit of the Game" first turn, until you play N. N is an upcoming Supporter with the same effect as Rocket's Admin, forcing each player to shuffle their hands into their decks and draw until they have as many cards in hand as they have remaining Prizes. Now "Spirit of the Game" combines with control decks for a devastating first turn soft-lock.
Notice how your argument also only holds if nothing makes Tropical Beach useful. You say you've tested it, and I congratulate you for that. How much testing did you do? I mean, you have to be able to dedicate your life to Pokemon to have thoroughly play-tested it to prove the point that no deck is even marginally better off using it. I don't think it will be useful that long, but especially right now with the dearth of good, non-Baby openers and Stadiums, there is definitely a niche use. I can't stack it on top of an opening attack, but I can stack it on top of a first turn Trainer or Supporter use, let alone any non-attack effects. For an otherwise good Pokemon who can't do anything (or anything useful) first turn, this functions as the current format's equivalent of Call Energy, sacrificing reliability for the possibility of an even better return. If nothing better crowds it out, it might at least affect the outcome of early tournaments. Plus, unlike you, my points stand even if nothing does end up making it worth running. :wink:
Not for you, untitled, but for anyone skimming this post:
tl;dr: Pokemon is about combos. Combos can make bad cards good, even great. There is no "safe bad effect" card to release as a Promo to the top players that might never have an impact on the real game, so don't even try. Just make future promos special versions of cards available through other means, and reprint past promos that are still legal for those niche decks that can use them, or in case something "breaks them" later on.
psychup2034
New Member
This. Nicely worded.
What if a card considered "bad," say... Pichu HS, was made an exclusive because it was thought to be so unplayable? Then Ross takes it to the final table at worlds. Could you imagine the outrage from the community?
What about Cleffa? It was a terrible card in the last format, but suddenly became really good when the format changed. Could you imagine if Cleffa was only available to about a thousand players? It would be an outrage.
Now, that's exactly what happened to Tropical Beach!
Also, the argument that "Tropical Beach isn't that good/playable" is completely bogus. A copy of the card was run in the deck that came in second at worlds. If getting played at the final table at worlds doesn't define playability, I don't know what does.
King Piplup
Active Member
And I've found myself including a copy in every deck I've made since Worlds (Granted, they are mostly Plume decks). The card is legit, and so is the issue at hand.
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