Survey - Donk'd - Turn 1 or 2 loss in Championship Events

[i like burdn of a day]

using Pachi GE Unown G Call Energy Gastly SF's Pitch Dark etc. stops donks. if your afraid of donks, use the first 3 cards i listed in your deck. yes, i dont like donks, but theres been points this season where IMO or by popular opinion a Donking deck has been one of the best decks. i played machamp in 3 tournaments this season. so what?! am i gonna be labled cheap forever because of that? (well, there are a couple mad people...) it took me just as long to build my machamp deck and make fit my play style as it took some of you to make a non donking deck. yeh, i dont wanna get donked at Nats, and i dont wanna be the donk-ee(no donkey remarks please :lol but sometimes these things happen and you learn from them or a noob just got lucky with his net decked kingdra. hopefully the first one.

 

[Godzfirefly]

Are you serious!!!! According to the survey almost 25% of the people were donked 3 times or more
and 45% of people were donked twice or more...

Almost half the players were donked twice or more.


Before the very first D&P Set. I could count on one hand how many times i had been donked...i'm talking about the entire time i've been playing pokemon
in the last 3 seasons with infernape/lucario/kingdra/Machamp/and now galatics... i've been donked more than my entire time playing

Let's look at these statistics more in depth than you are.

1) 29.5% of people stated they had lost in the first 2 turns 3 or more times.
2) The average number of games played in premier ranked tournaments is 39.66.
3) That is 29.5% of players were donked 3+ games per 39.66, or 13.22% of the time. (In an 8 round swiss tournament, this means at least once in a tournament before top cut...well, almost...)

BUT, it also shows...

1) 70.5% of people stated they were 'donked' two or fewer times in Premier tournaments.
2) These 70.5% of people would be donked less than once per tournament, on average. (Based both on average # of donks per game and average # of donks per average # of tourneys played.)
3) Somehow, though, 58.8% of people claimed that donks by their opponents hindered their enjoyment of the tournament (either agreeing or strongly agreeing). Even though 53.7% of respondants claim to have been donked no more than once ever.

This suggests that a lot of people are somehow having their entire tourney experience disturbed by a single loss. Losses do happen...

Other stats I found interesting...

1) "The loser was the player who went first" had higher responses on the 'less frequent than 50% of the time' side of the spectrum than the 'more frequently than 50% of the time' side. Since Machamp and Kingdra donks are performed by the player going 2nd, that says a lot to me...
2) 42.1% of respondants found that games were over in less than 5 minutes less than 10% of the time. Only 23.9% of respondants found half their games (or more) lasting less than 5 minutes.
3) Tallied responses of losses (in question 4) come to 463 losses in turn 1-2 and 394 losses in turn 3-4 [assuming the 9 answers of 9 are counted as actually 9 losses.] Assuming these answers are honest and accurate (a big assumption,) this means 857 games ended in something that could be considered a 'donk. This is out of 3,047 total losses (from question 3's answers) for about 28% of losses (a significant percentage, admittedly.)
4) Only 5 of the 235 people responding indicated they lose without getting a turn more than 50% of the time. This, at least, tells me that the vast majority of people are trying to be honest here, rather than spiking their responses to indicate a worse problem than they see. (It also helps that the total losses to donks compares reasonably to the number of people claiming multiple donks.)

All this tells me that it is a minority of people (less than 30%) having real issues with being donked (i.e. getting donked enough to cost them a top-cut) with a majority of players complaining about donks anyway.

 

[baby mario]

using Pachi GE Unown G Call Energy Gastly SF's Pitch Dark etc. stops donks. if your afraid of donks, use the first 3 cards i listed in your deck.

Except that doesn't work, and even if it did, you would lose T3-5 most of the time for having a terrible deck.

Whatever people think about Machamp donks, let's not pretend that they can be avoided by good deckbuilding (is there ANY well-built deck that can reasonably run 4 pachi, 4 Call, 4 Unown G?). You may as well tell people to run nothing but 4 Toxicroak G.

 

[Scipio]

Godzfirefly: The thing isn't always about the amount of donks, but more or less when they happen. I'll take my own getting donked experiences here, alright? Just for the sake of example. I'm not often donked.

BR Finals Game 1 and Game 3.

States Made Round 1
States Made Round 2

That's about it from me. But look right there - one cost me the victory medal, and the other two meant that I had just been travelling for 150 minutes only to be done with the tournament in 2 minutes. That's pretty ridiculous despite the low amount of donks.

As for all the donk's I've preformed, I can recall exactly one. A Delta Seadra against a lone Skitty back in HP-MT. Which is an accidental donk. Those donks happen every once in a blue moon and probably aren't the problem outlined here.

Also, the last alinea by baby mario is the best argument to be hating on Machamp ever.

 

[Godzfirefly]

I don't understand how Baby Mario can insist that good, stable deckbuilding doesn't prevent donks. I'm not suggesting going to ridiculous measures like 4 Pachi, 4 Call, and 4 Unown G while also running 12 other basics (for a total of 20 Basics.) That isn't actually good deckbuilding.

But, I am talking about running more than 6-8 Basics (12-ish should be enough to get 2 or more Basics a reasonable percentage of the time). I am talking about putting consideration into what Basics you do run, with the possibility of choosing some that make it easier to truly set up your deck (like choosing Call for Family Eevee over Signs of Evolution Eevee.) I am talking about building a deck with thought to winning at least as many games by going first as going second. These things help. Will they 100% eliminate donks from donk-based decks? No. But they do keep such donks limited to once a tourney or so (and also force donk-based decks to realise that they can't win a Top-Cut just by donking.)

@Scipio: Yes, sometimes the timing of donks sucks. And, your anecdotal evidence shows a valid reason to answer that a donk interfered with your enjoyment of the tournament (at least the States tourney.) But, there is a reason anectodtal evidence isn't considered scientific...because it isn't the way it hits everyone (or in this case, even most people.) Most people who get that 1 donk in the tourney are either able to still battle their way to a Top Cut (and those that do, earned that right) or probably would have never made the TopCut anyway (not just because they had enough losses anyway, but because they still could have lost to a non-donk that round.)

PS: I'm not trying to be insensitive to those people who lose to donks with timing that sucks. I am fully aware that getting donked (for any reason, even the random, unplanned donk) sucks at Top Cut or when you need to win just that one more game to make Top Cut. The suddenness of it being all over, the change from excitement to disappointment. It sucks. I get it, I've been there. I just want to point out that it is not the game's fault...that the game isn't broken...that most of the time, at least, we can still have fun playing a full day of Pokémon TCG against top competitors, even with donk decks hovering around.​

 

[baby mario]

I don't understand how Baby Mario can insist that good, stable deckbuilding doesn't prevent donks. I'm not suggesting going to ridiculous measures like 4 Pachi, 4 Call, and 4 Unown G while also running 12 other basics (for a total of 20 Basics.) That isn't actually good deckbuilding.

But, I am talking about running more than 6-8 Basics (12-ish should be enough to get 2 or more Basics a reasonable percentage of the time). I am talking about putting consideration into what Basics you do run, with the possibility of choosing some that make it easier to truly set up your deck (like choosing Call for Family Eevee over Signs of Evolution Eevee.) I am talking about building a deck with thought to winning at least as many games by going first as going second. These things help. Will they 100% eliminate donks from donk-based decks? No. But they do keep such donks limited to once a tourney or so (and also force donk-based decks to realise that they can't win a Top-Cut just by donking.)

Running 12 Basic Pokemon means that you get a lone Pokemon start 38.13% of the time.

http://www.pojo.com/Features/X-Act/Odds In Pokemon 1.htm

I agree that 12 ish Basics can be decent deckbuilding, but when it leaves you with a near 40% chance of a lone start (and donk vulnerability), is it enough?

 

[k2moylan]

To Be or not to be...Donked'

It's wonderful to wine and exercise the 1st but let's see..no bench, decking yourself, donking... guess what that's GAME! GET use to it guys. Let"s see someone make a HAYMAKER now(my son went to an STS with this deck)! My point is go with the flow, go rogue, go with the current format and go have FUN! SOoo, why don't you mimic the people down in New Mexico where they didn't allow 15+ players to play! I can handle Pokemon banning Sneasel and other Bodies/Powers to be..LOL. But come on guys, you play this GAME to get High on life and have fun and it's free(sorta) to enter. Anywho, this is my first entry!

 

[bullados]

There are many ways to win a game. Donking is but one of them. Quit crying and go play.

WAHHHH!

I am getting really tired of people who are whiners about donks.

One of the tests of a good player is being able to adapt to the format.

Guess what? This is part of the format.

Don't tell me it wasn't intended...the cards are as clear as they could ever hope to be.

They allow it. You don't like it, then fine, you don't like the format...but guess what..

It is what it is.

They didn't want Machamp to go off turn 1...then make it a 2 energy attack.

This was intended.

You either need to realize it, wake up and accept the reality of the format, or find a way around it in your deck that does not cripple your strategy...

But to simply whine about it...enough is enough.

The worst part is, and I really hope I am wrong...someone may actually pay attention to the squeaky wheel here.

Man, I love not being a mod and being able to say what I really think.

Deal with it.

you aren't good enough to win all of your games, no matter what you think, no matter who you are playing.

Losses happen.

PMs encouraged, or we can play here.

Vince

I love you two, and I wish that more people around here would listen to voices of reason like this.

Running 12 Basic Pokemon means that you get a lone Pokemon start 38.13% of the time.

http://www.pojo.com/Features/X-Act/Odds In Pokemon 1.htm

I agree that 12 ish Basics can be decent deckbuilding, but when it leaves you with a near 40% chance of a lone start (and donk vulnerability), is it enough?

But that still leaves a 40% or better chance of getting 2 or more Pokemon in your opening hand, not to mention that, if you have zero Pokemon in your hand (about 20% of the time), you get to redraw and have another chance of getting 2 or more Pokemon. Not to mention that running 4 Call in setup decks effectively gives you 16 Basics, or approximately a 70% or better chance to get 2+ Basics in your opening hand.

Also, that 40% is partially negated by the fact that most donks can only happen on the 2nd turn of the game, reducing the odds to about 20% with 12 Basics, and about 15% of the time with 12 Basics and 4 Call (like my version of Torterra).

Build your decks around the format. If there's something that you're scared of in the format, build your deck to counter it as best as possible, or just accept that as a loss and move on (that's what I did with Torterra vs. Dusknoir, and I won a City with that deck).

 

[Scipio]

Okay, Bullados. You explain to me a 100% anti-Machamp measurement. Please do. Because 13 basics and 4 call energy and an agility attack isn't enough.

Build my deck around the format? Sure, I love to. But you can't build around those donks. I build my decks to have good matchups with Machamp, Gengar, Kingdra, Rampardos and a bunch of other decks (I can show you a deck that has a 60-40 or better matchup against each of those 4). That is, as long as I survive T1. And I can guarantee you that at least 90% of the people who are hating on donks could do that as well. But when you start with a lone Unown G and your opponent starts with Gastly-Candy-Gengar, then what?

Thats the whole point. You cannot prepare for a donk. Cutting a game to 1 minute is no fun. Especially not if 50 seconds of that is "Pokedex...Pokedrawer....Energy to Machop....Broken Time-Space...Luxury Ball for Machoke...Play Uxie....Bebe for Machamp"

Seriously. "Deal with it" and "Build around it" don't fly.

 

[DarthPika]

bullados, just consider your self lucky that I can't say what I would like to say with out getting a ban...

Please, do tell me a deck that doesn't suck that can consistently beat Machamp, Kingdra, Gengar and have decent matchups against the rest of the format. The bottom line is, there isn't one. Ya, I have decks that can beat all of them, but thats IF and ONLY IF I actually get a few turns. Its STUPID to have a game where we supposedly are trying to find the best where the skilled players can lose because they get a grand total of 1 or 2 turns for a battle.

Heck, I got donked by a shaymin when I was using legos and every pokemon in my deck was a basic, and I had PLENTY of search. Now, its not Machamp, but my point is even the most consistent decks out there (this Legos was 9-0 untill that point) can get donked, and you can't do anything about it.

One last thing to point out. Adding all this anti donk junk actually tends to cause more donks than anything else. They clog up the deck and make it very inconsistent.

 

[Jayson]

You never did anything to me, but your posts are extremely annoying and a detriment to this forum, in my opinion. And I didn't go out of my way. Pokegym has a great search function!

You donked a guy, you were pleased with yourself about it, while in the same breath denouncing him for playing a "donk" deck.

Now you spam every donk thread on the gym, whining about some bad luck you had and how should have won, just because the people that have beaten you are supposedly less serious about this game than you are. That's the biggest baloney I've ever heard. This game needs less people like you.

Also I don't think you understand the concept of trolling.

 

[Scipio]

I think one point to keep in mind here is that DarthPika's donk was with a deck not intended to donk. It happened with Beedrill. The one donk I pulled was with Kingdra Ex last year, with Seadra vs a lone Skitty. I once got donked in the same way too. THAT isn't a bad donk as those will ALWAYS happen, intended or not.
Its just that Kingdra, Machamp, Rampardos, Toxicroak and Sableye can do it too consistently (Though Kingdra, Toxicroak and Sableye much less). Do note that I don't agree with DarthPika's tone in the debate.

Bottom line, the problem is the decks based on DONKING, not the fact that donks happen.

 

[Jayson]

I don't care what deck he used to donk. If he's bragging about his donk, and then turning around and denouncing donks and hating on people that donk, he is a hypocrite. Calling some donks okay and some donks bad is just silly. If donking and games being over too quickly is a problem, then we need a solution that will improve the game no matter how people go about getting that T1 or 2 win. You can't just ban or errata 3-4 cards and call the game fair, because there is an infinite combination of cards that can get the T1 or 2 win and it would be senseless to just start banning or fixing based on that criteria.

I feel that the game itself is fine. When I'm playing Pokemon with friends, if a game is over quickly (this doesn't happen very often - we run good decks) we just laugh it off, shuffle up and start up a new game.

Now when the game is played in a competitive context, where there are prizes on the line, I can see how a quickly finished game can be disappointing for the loser. That's why, in the survey, I voted for the adoption of match play (best 2 out of 3) as the standard for tournaments.

Donks will happen. The game definitely doesn't need to change, but maybe the format in which we play it could be improved.

 

[Godzfirefly]

bullados, just consider your self lucky that I can't say what I would like to say with out getting a ban...

Please, do tell me a deck that doesn't suck that can consistently beat Machamp, Kingdra, Gengar and have decent matchups against the rest of the format. The bottom line is, there isn't one. Ya, I have decks that can beat all of them, but thats IF and ONLY IF I actually get a few turns.

So, let me get this straight. Because there is not a single deck that beats every deck all the time, you are upset? I normally don't say things like this, but...that is stupid. Straight and simple. Asking for a single deck that beats everything playable is asking for a repeat of the GG format...a format with no variety and limited-to-no deck building skill.

If it is a choice between a format with occassional donks and a format that chokes every deck but one out of it, i'll take the donks, thank you very much. Donking might make one game in 8-10 no fun, but GG-like formats make every game no fun.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Okay, Bullados. You explain to me a 100% anti-Machamp measurement. Please do. Because 13 basics and 4 call energy and an agility attack isn't enough.

Build my deck around the format? Sure, I love to. But you can't build around those donks. I build my decks to have good matchups with Machamp, Gengar, Kingdra, Rampardos and a bunch of other decks (I can show you a deck that has a 60-40 or better matchup against each of those 4). That is, as long as I survive T1. And I can guarantee you that at least 90% of the people who are hating on donks could do that as well. But when you start with a lone Unown G and your opponent starts with Gastly-Candy-Gengar, then what?

...

Seriously. "Deal with it" and "Build around it" don't fly.

Of course there is no 100% anti-Machamp tech. Nor should there be. Neither should there be a 100% anti-Dialga G tech or a 100% anti-AMU tech. There may be cards that come close (Mewtwo is a pretty massive tech against AMU, for 1,) but asking for a 100% effective tech against a deck is asking the games to be decided BEFORE the players sit down. And that seems more counter-productive to game fun than you claim donks are.

And yes, if you start with only Unown G or Baltoy, there is a good chance you will lose. And that is often the case even if you aren't immediately donked. People CAN come back from that, but let's face it...that's a tough situation no matter what you're facing. But, is it your opponent's fault that they can take advantage of your deck giving you an Unown G start? Not really. Nor is it their fault if you start with only Baltoy or only Uxie. If your deck's Basic scheme looks like 4-6 attacking Pokémon and 6 or so Uxie/Baltoy/Unown G, you can expect that kind of thing to happen...

 

[DuskFan]

If someone donks you, you shouldn't complain and whine about it. Just accept it and hush with the fighting. I've been Donk'd by Golem 4 and he was really good player.

 

[DarthPika]

I think one point to keep in mind here is that DarthPika's donk was with a deck not intended to donk. It happened with Beedrill. The one donk I pulled was with Kingdra Ex last year, with Seadra vs a lone Skitty. I once got donked in the same way too. THAT isn't a bad donk as those will ALWAYS happen, intended or not.
Its just that Kingdra, Machamp, Rampardos, Toxicroak and Sableye can do it too consistently (Though Kingdra, Toxicroak and Sableye much less). Do note that I don't agree with DarthPika's tone in the debate.

Bottom line, the problem is the decks based on DONKING, not the fact that donks happen.

I really wish Jayson wouldn't go around talking about tourneys like he was there. The donk went in my props because I had JUST told Luke before we started that the only way I would every beat his Inferncatty with Beedrill was to donk him. Did I mention that this was top 2 where the random donk really dosn't matter?

Since then I've donked a grand total of 1 person. That donk happend to be a t1 Uxie donk against a lone Unown G, the sposed anti donk card. I felt really bad about t1ing him before he even had a turn. I'll never use a deck designed to donk my opponent for that reason. I'll use a rush deck, but I'm not going to use something focused on winning agaisnt a lone basic. That just says that you arn't skillfull enough to actually win a full battle and take those 6 prizes IMO.

 

[Squidwina]

As for all those people who don't mind being donked... JUST STAY AT YOUR LEAGUES IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT WINNING! Some of us actually are trying to get to worlds. If you don't care about winning, then please stop coming to tourneys....Now its basicly, "oh shoot... I wen't 2nd to this n00b... I just lost..."

Your constant derogatory comments about "n00bs" are offensive and insulting.

I'm appalled that you are trying to discourage people from playing in Pokemon tournaments.

And I'm truly flabbergasted that you think that anyone should modify their behavior because some stranger who doesn't even like them is having trouble qualifying for Worlds.

Now, I have been donked by more n00bs than I ever care to think about, all because I start with some lame dead hand vs thier super awesome lucksacking t2 X donk card. >_>

Sweetheart, if "n00bs" are beating you THAT often, maybe that says more about your skill level than anything else.

 

[DarthPika]

Your constant derogatory comments about "n00bs" are offensive and insulting.

I'm appalled that you are trying to discourage people from playing in Pokemon tournaments.

And I'm truly flabbergasted that you think that anyone should modify their behavior because some stranger who doesn't even like them is having trouble qualifying for Worlds.


Sweetheart, if "n00bs" are beating you THAT often, maybe that says more about your skill level than anything else.

Perhaps I should have used the term scrub instead. I didn't mean new players shoudnt play the game, I just dislike the players that get enjoyment form ruining someone elses shot at top cut/worlds etc.

And I would like to make something clear. Most of my hate is for the donks, not the players.

 

[The_Envoy_of_Chaos]

One thing that really fires me up, is that people are complaining about there not being a deck that can beat Gengar, Machamp and Kingdra, without loosing to everything else. Isn't that the point? There shouldn't be just one dominant deck. Jeez, look at situations where like last year, GG was pretty much the only viable deck in the format, and people were outraged because of it. At least this season, there is variety.

The game is alot faster that it used to be; people need to learn to adapt to the changes that get thrown at use. Donks will always happen and always have happened, it's just that they are more frequent. People just need to get over it. And to all of those elitist players, the ones who are always whining about the format, blame their loses on luck rather than admit that they could have been out-played (though, luck does play a certain part in it, as it's card game) and who seriously lack SotG, GROW UP.

 

[baby mario]

Even though I dislike Machamp and think it makes the format less enjoyable, I will admit one thing . . .

The fear of the Machamp donk is probably spoiling the game more than the actual donk itself. Despite approximately 792 players on PokeGym claiming that they have a SOLID BUILD that 'gets the T1 set up 95% of the time', it doesn't seem to win as many tournaments as you might expect (assuming their figures are accurate :wink