Survey - Donk'd - Turn 1 or 2 loss in Championship Events

[butterfree67]

Not trying to start a flame war here.....

The envoy of Chaos: As I said in the title of this post, I am not trying to start a flame war, but I hardly call the 3 decks you mentioned having variety in the game! I like bug decks like beedrill, my husband likes dark, My son electric. I would much rather play my own made deck, and tweak it, than play some pre-constructed thing containing one of those 3, which you can copy from any one of the major forums on the web. Your statement implies that people MUST play 1 of those 3 to win, or just give up and accept the loss. That IS NOT SOTG!!!!!!

My Whole beef with donk decks is they are played at leagues, against young children like my 6 year old! Would you like to explain to my son why he didn't get to play? Could you tell your son/daughter that a T1 donk is what was intended for the game and they have to play a deck like that to even play at all? Would you tell your 6 year old to "grow up" as you smugly put it? I find that absurd!

Where is the fun for the children in that at leagues? That is what I am asking you. Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the game? My husband is a competitive player, and very few people at league will play him, as he is intense with his Speed T-tar and Dialga G decks, compared to the kids and teenagers making decks of the pokies they like. He finds it not very fun at all, playing the same people, and winning the majority of the time.

I say keep the tourney decks (donk decks especially) at the tourneys, but the leagues are for fun, and the 2 should NOT cross, but they are, at least out here in my part of CA, and that's my problem!

Thank you for letting me soapbox! Kids should NOT be Donke'd at league. Period :nonono:

 

[Scipio]

Of course there is no 100% anti-Machamp tech. Nor should there be. Neither should there be a 100% anti-Dialga G tech or a 100% anti-AMU tech. There may be cards that come close (Mewtwo is a pretty massive tech against AMU, for 1,) but asking for a 100% effective tech against a deck is asking the games to be decided BEFORE the players sit down. And that seems more counter-productive to game fun than you claim donks are.

I'm not saying I want a DECK that beats Machamp 100% of the time - there are plenty of decks with good matchups against it. I would just like to see a SOLID anti-donk measurement. Im mainly reacting to people who say "Add more Call Energy/Basics and DEAL WITH IT!!!111one" - it still isn't enough to prevent donks.

Thats the whole thing. I know that the deck I have has bad matchups against decks other then Gengar/Machamp/Kingdra/Rampardos/Toxitank. I know I can't really handle some of those. I know you can't have a 'god' deck. What just miffles me the most is that an undeserving player wins games by T1 when you KNOW your deck beats that deck even if he takes 3 prizes in the first 3 turns. That, quite frankly, is a disgrace.

And before I'm attacked on the undeserving player part (Because I know people here will just fish out the least important part of the argument): I do not hate the players who play the deck. I think its a cheap way to win, but eh. I just really hate it when you have a positive matchup yet lose due to such random luck on turn one.

Also, picture this. Little Timmy, 6 years old, has played for a few months at league. His league leader helped him create a deck he really likes, is easy to use and could get him somewhere at a tournament, such as Scizor. High spirited, Little Timmy goes to the tournament, has his daddy pay the entry fee (Us Europeans arent as lucky as you Americans) and sits down for his very first game in a tournament.
30 seconds later it's over.
How does little Timmy feel? Sure, his opponent kid might have fun but how do you explain that his first match just ended without him doing anything but attaching a grass energy to his Scyther?
I think that is something we miss here. The little kids. Do they have fun when losing within 30 seconds?

 

[afstandopleren]

Do Adults and Teen have fun loosing in 30 seconds? I think not. Tho most of the teens and adults have low SotG IMHO if they play Donk decks. >_> And again, shouldnm't we be an example for those little kids and show how Pokemon can be really fun to play because a match can actually take 30 to 40 minutes?

And please don't say there is a difference between Speed and Donk decks. Ever noticed how many Donkers are Speed decks?

 

[Jayson]

Since it's best-of-one in swiss this season, the obvious solution to losing (or winning) in 30 seconds, is to PLAY ANOTHER GAME. FOR FUN. Yes, you're allowed to do that. Record the result of your first game, (smile and shrug it off if you were the loser) and ask your opponent if they want to play again.

I'm sorry but the "round is over too fast and I have to sit around for 35 minutes" argument is soooo worn out.

And calling into question people's spirit of the game based on what deck they play is going to be so incredibly offensive to a lot of people.

What is this sudden hate for fast decks? Isn't that the point of the game, to take your prizes faster than your opponent? Why would anyone want to avoid that?

 

[afstandopleren]

Oh you Donked me, I've lost my shot at the Top Cut. How about a friendly game old chap?
:nonono::nonono::nonono:

So what if it is offensive to those people that play decks that are offensive and morally low? Machamp is called Macheap for a reason. I bet Kingdra and Rampardos would get the same treatment as Macheap as they are all capable of doing the same for 1 Energy. There is NO SPEED involved in KOing your opponent's lone Pokemon and playing a deck that has 4 Toxicroak G is obviously NO solution.

 

[Jayson]

Oh you Donked me, I've lost my shot at the Top Cut. How about a friendly game old chap?
:nonono::nonono::nonono:

So what if it is offensive to those people that play decks that are offensive and morally low? Machamp is called Macheap for a reason. I bet Kingdra and Rampardos would get the same treatment as Macheap as they are all capable of doing the same for 1 Energy. There is NO SPEED involved in KOing your opponent's lone Pokemon and playing a deck that has 4 Toxicroak G is obviously NO solution.

First of all, drop the sarcasm and drama if you want to be taken seriously.

Your unwillingness to play another game with your opponent sounds a lot more like poor SOTG than their deck choice. Swallow your sour grapes about missing cut and have fun playing this fun game. My suggestion is to play that opponent until you win, if they'll let you. If they consistently donk you several more times, it's probably has more to do with your deck choice than with theirs.

Nobody is offering the solution, "play 4 Toxicroak" or "play 16 basics + Unown G + Call." Stop with these foolish sensationalist arguments. Yes, it's good deckbuilding to give your deck the best starts-consistency possible, and no that won't stop every donk, but it's all a game of statistics. You put statistics on your side as much as possible to make sure that 9 games out of 10, the vulnerable lone basic start won't happen. Then when that 10th game rolls around and you get the lone basic, you hope that it's not against a T1 deck.

But the point I'm trying to get across is, quit being such a poor sport, stay at your table and have a good game with your opponent, even if the first game is over quickly.

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

. How many of each 2008-2009 season POP Championship Series Events did you make the TOP CUT in? Enter 0 (zero) if you didn't make top cut in a particular series.

Zero Times:
Battle Road - Autumn 53.2% (125)
City Championship 43.4% (102)
State Championship 56.2% (132)
Regional Championship 72.3% (170)

4. How many times were YOU "donk'd" in a 2008-2009 Championship series event (BR, CC, SC or RC)? Please count the number of times you lost on the first to fourth turn of the game, regardless of which specific Pokémon card was used to cause your loss. If it was more than 9 times, please select 9.

Zero Times:
Number of times you lost turn 1 or 2 29.4% (69)
Number of times you lost on turn 3 or 4 31.4% (71)

Donks aren't happening as often as people purport and people are still missing top cut.

 

[Scipio]

But the point I'm trying to get across is, quit being such a poor sport, stay at your table and have a good game with your opponent, even if the first game is over quickly.

So if you just lost to a donk, KNOWING it cost you a victory medal/top cut spot/any decent shot at a good result, then you are willing to play another game against that very same donk deck for fun?
Yeah, forgive me if I have my doubts about that little fact.

 

[Jayson]

So if you just lost to a donk, KNOWING it cost you a victory medal/top cut spot/any decent shot at a good result, then you are willing to play another game against that very same donk deck for fun?
Yeah, forgive me if I have my doubts about that little fact.

Sure, I forgive you. I did it at Kentucky states where I was T1'd by a Rampardos deck designed for T1-ing. We scooped up, played another game, and I "deafen donked" him locking out his fossils from T1-on, so he was only able to set up one Rampardos. Both of our decks worked just fine. Yes I felt mine had a bit of an edge against Rampardos (and other turbo trainer/Uxie decks), and going 2nd in the first game I would have been able to search for Dialga/basic metal to get the T1 lock, but I didn't sweat it.

I ended up in the loser's bracket from that game, which was my only complaint because I was hoping to play against more competitive decks and players. But I enjoyed meeting the guy I played, and I enjoyed the games I played with him, and I rooted for my friends who had better luck than I did that day.

 

[Scipio]

I suppose you take your losses more gracefully then I do then. For that I tip my hat.

Doesn't mean you convinced me that donks are anything remotely resembling good for the game though. Really, the way I see it, decks intending to donk and donk only shouldn't exist. But getting something silly like T1 Nidoqueen RR vs. Lone Lucario GL or something silly like that, that kind of donk has always been around, playing on T1 weaknesses, and are so rare that they are neglectable. I don't think many people have a problem with those given their rarity compared to Macheap, Kingdra, Rampardos and pals.

 

[ryanvergel]

Add more Call Energy/Basics and DEAL WITH IT!!!111one

I hate seeing "advice" like that. 2/3 of my starters have 60 or more HP. I ran 12 basic pokemon. I still get t1 sabeleyd TWICE at regionals.

Donks are bad for the game. There is already enough luck to let scrubs win and still play the game. Why was MORE luck added?

You think I wanted to drive 6 hours to lose twice before I get to draw a card. If you use champ you are probably really bad and rely on luck to win, or you'd play a real deck.

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As for all those people who don't mind being donked... JUST STAY AT YOUR LEAGUES IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT WINNING! Some of us actually are trying to get to worlds. If you don't care about winning, then please stop coming to tourneys. Thats besides the fact that I'm sure they wouldn't like it so much if they just drove several hours to play, and then had all their games last about 5min or less.

Sad to say, it seems less and less of my games have been those amazing epic matches where its neck and neck the whole time. You know, the kind of matches that are really fun, and what make the game worth playing. I used to get them all the time. Now its basicly, "oh shoot... I wen't 2nd to this n00b... I just lost...".

I want more of the epic Metanite vs Rgon type matches back. Those were some of the most fun games I've ever had.

QFT!

I dislike spending a few hundred and driving 6 hours for an event and having my time ruined because some scrub got exceedingly lucky. Go to league =\ I'm here for skill.

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I dislike losing to extremely bad luck, and I hate losing to a deck whose only strategy is me getting unlucky.

Why is that whining?

 

[meganium45]

Why is that whining?

Read your post AGAIN above, and tell me how that does not come off as "I am better than you and I should win" and simple elitist whining.

Calling people scrubs, n00bs, other names really doesn't help you all at all.

I take great pride in taking players from "nowhereland" to "may actually be able to competeland"...and these "donk" decks you are talking about...they only really go off if they are really well made, or the player gets extremely lucky.

Guess what? You are going to lose some games to a newer, rising player who either gets extremely lucky, or has a well made deck that they understand.

You want a game with no luck? GO PLAY CHESS.

Luck is what keeps a lot of us hopeful.

Luck is what keeps Ness and Chuck from going 31-1 every event, only losing to each other.

What you are misstating as "Donk" is a problem that has been with this game since the beginning of time...there is a luck factor.

Vince

It has been a mantra of mine for years that at every major event, no matter how well your deck is made, you can COUNT on your deck failing you twice in the tournament. You might not lose those games (as your opponent's deck may fail too), and you may only lose one game in swiss, and one game in the 2/3...but your deck will fail you twice....take that into account.

 

[Naki Feralkin]

What are these donks? I think it happened to me maybe once and it was at a Fall Battle Road. Most people around here either deal with it by running more Call's, Roseanne's or have consistent and non-clunky decks that don't get donked. Heck, I was running Speedrill at BR's this past weekend because it can hit fast and hard, guess what. I didn't donk anybody, even with consistent hands dealing 90-120 damage T1. People had ways around it, played more basics (SP runs plenty..), had consistent draw thanks to Uxie, Roseannes, and Call. If you guys are seriously having that much problems with donk, while half of the BR attendance here had no problems, I'm sensing some serious problems with your meta. (mind you, most of our BR attendance was not of the higher calibur like some players around the gym, and still had no problems.)

If Machamp is seriously a problem for some of you guys, maybe its time to relook at your decks. I'm sorry for your misfortune, but if its that big of a deal, adjust to it and stop complaining. People are allowed to attend whatever events they want to. Its people like you guys that are making other people dislike even bothering playing this game because you're so uptight. Not everyone plays for fun, nor should they have to. Forcing others to make such a big deal out of this game is ridiculous.

Darn it, Vince beat me to it. I agree with his statement entirely.

And haven't we seen donks for a long time anyways? If you think this season was the start of it, look back to when losing a game to Riolu of all pokemon was problematic for Holon Decks. And what about Infernape? T1 80 damage off a god hand? Your arguments are baseless. Why complain now when you could have complained the last two years?

 

[baby mario]

Most people accept that there is a luck factor in Pokemon, and sometimes you will lose (and win) because of that.

What I DON'T understand is why people use the existing luck factor to excuse the introduction of more and more luck into the game.

If you want a game that is all luck, then go and play . . . I dunno . . . Snakes and Ladders?

EDIT

I wish I knew what how a deck could be adjusted (without making it outright rubbish) in order to counter Machamp donk decks. It just doesn't have a decent counter. Kingdra? play high HP Basics. Sableye? don't run low HP/Darkness weak Basics. Machamp . . . ummmm . . . just run 4 Toxicroak G?

 

[afstandopleren]

^Chess argument is fail. Luck is involved in EVERYTHING. Get over that fact. The only thing you can do is try to increase you luck by making a consistent deck.

Donkers are the bad end of the spectrum of the consistent deck part tho.

[Angry Rant=]You got bad luck? Well TOOO BAD cuz I play Cheap, therefor I got luck and skills while I play 30 cards in 1 turn and you can only watch hopelessly while you see me filtering my deck for that 1 Rare Candy for the win. So what if you spend 100 bucks and drove an X amount of hours to get here and try to win, I am here for the same thing but better then you cuz I completely ruled out the luck factor by using all the cards this wonderful game gives me for the T1 Win.[Angry Rant]

 

[secretsof2113]

Very well said Vince! I think it's very true that a deck will fail its user at least twice in a tournament. You may have a perfect deck, but a bad hand compared to your opponent's fantastic hand can turn the tables in their favor very quickly. If you get donked by a deck, just suck it up and move to the next round. Not every game is going to be like that.

And to tell people who just want to come out and play for fun that they are not welcome is just wrong. As a judge and player, I always like to see new people coming out to play. Whether they do well, or do terribly, they are just glad to be there. This is why Pokemon has an open environment, which allows everyone to play.

It's like my first year of OP, when I went to nationals. I started out 3-0 in swiss, so I knew I was going up against the higher players. My rating was relatively low, and my opponent asked me what my rating was coming in. He then told me if he lost to me, he'd kill himself. That kind of remark from a person made me furious, and I only narrowly lost to him. But his whole "I'm better than you, and going to remain better than you" attitude really turned me off.

What happened to the fun in this game? Seems like anymore it's "Pokemanz is serious business." It's a kids game, geared towards kids. If you really feel that you have to win the prizes every time and get angry when "scrubs" beat you, go play something else.

 

[Scipio]

What happened to the fun in this game?

I don't know, you can ask Machamp about that.

Seriously though, as evident by my posts, I really hate donks. Yet calling people scrubs for playing donk decks? Come on, that's just plain wrong. Yes, its cheap, but there is no reason for insults here.

Now since this "vince" (I dont know you personally, so I prefer to just say Meganium45 - hope you dont mind) seems to not care about donks, let me ask him this.

Are you having FUN when you spend a LOT of time getting somewhere, only to see all your effort being crushed by a Take Out? I play to win and have fun, unlike what some people like ryanvergel seem to think, that IS in fact possible. If I get outplayed and lose based on skill, then so be it, I got outskilled. If I have a bad matchup (Like, say, my Porygon-Z versus Blaziken) then too. If SOME luck was involved (A few coinflips left and right, mediocre draws, the works), still no problem. Part of the game that is accepted. That is why you build your decks to minimalize the luck factor. But when you lose by turn one to a deck that can't hold its own after T4...yeah, that's just plain wrong.

Naki - So you're saying your BR attendance avoided the donks. Good for them. Yet that too can be considered luck. Refer to my often named example of playing 13 basics, 4 Call Energy, and still getting donked twice in the finals simply due to lone Snover starts - with Snover flipping tails on Hide.

Yes, decks will fail you once or twice each tournament. I take that too into my calculations. But thats still no excuse to allow those cheap donks.

And a final note, is it too much to ask to keep personal assaults to a minimum? As well as namecalling?

 

[meganium45]

Almost had Carlos M. do that to me in TN States, and I got the Unown G out, or I would have gone down turn 1, and ended my dream in the only event I got to play in all year.

No, I was not playing Machamp.

Machamp as a deck not being able to survive after turn 4? Really?

There are some players in Florida, and a kid by the name of Kevin W out of Tennessee (yes, BOTH masters division players) who won States, and Regionals with Machamps not set up to donk the opponent every game, and didn't!

Do I feel bad for players who travel to lose? Yeah.

Do I feel worse for players who travel thinking they should not lose? YEAH.

Players taking advantage of the utter speed of this format, and getting out quick stage 2s using the trainers available to them are...ding ding ding...playing within the curent format.

Players who consistantly whine about Machamp taking no skill....pathetic.

To every deck, there is a counter. To every counter there is an answer.

This is a great format, with well more than 2 viable decks.

Yes, one of these decks has awesome firepower right out of the game...but another is almost unstoppable if it gets all of its pieces going...which is more skillful...to make the deck that executes the opponent before they can get started, or, oblivious to the fact that the executioner is available, to blindly play a deck that can get killed so quickly.

People pulled EVERY trick in the book to beat 'gatr or 'LBS in its day, and noone is putting the Machamp variants on the same pedastal as EITHER of those decks.

Vince

 

[Scipio]

Mainly because it was possible to combat them WITHOUT fearing your entire gameplan would be down the gutter by Turn 1? That might've helped the situation. Its also the entire point I have with donks. You can TRY to prepare but one stroke of bad luck and its over anyway. At least against decks like LBS you wouldnt lose if you didnt have multiple basics by the end of T1.
It doesnt take skill to donk. Any dope can play a bunch of Pokedexes, drop an Uxie, draw some more, play Rare Candy, Machamp and an Energy and call it a day. It also doesn't take a lot of skill to play the deck beyond that point - should I donk or should I coinflip?
I don't expect to win. I expect good games. Machamp is denying that.

 

[SLOW DECK]

I haven't posted here in a while as PokeGym reminded me. Thus I pick this thread Donks.... ADAPT or DIE. If you have some great deck that list is low on basics and call energy, you are subject to a donk. It is as SILLY as running a fire deck against a Kingdra cities format.

Funny, I wonder what the complaining would be if I posted my "UR Double Donk" deck list for the masses. First T.Turn 140+ damage on to board by 6-7 crobat drops, 4 pokeblower flips, 70 damage to active. And I my long game is equally nasty. Does that make me a cheap player, or just a better deck builder than you. Adapt.

For everyone complaining about Donks, I don't know why they haven't adapted and understood more Calls NRG, and higher basic count on G's and such. Even if you do play 16+ basics, donks can still happen.

Some people complain, some just adapt.