Unimpressed with Undaunted and Unleashed

[Dark-Paladin-Duelist]

It could just be that there's also some players don't want to strictly play meta decks. I personally have played rogue since I returned to the game back in February, and while I didn't have fun at the Unleashed prerelease itself due to being rusty with the game and the prerelease format was new to me, I did have fun with the people I went down to the event to see, since I don't get to see them that often IRL.

The set does have its cards that will see meta play in my eyes, but there's also some other cards that I find interesting and I hope to pull some of both when I go to my Undaunted PR this Saturday.

 

[nnaann]

This is really about what your personal goals and expectations are for a prerelease. If you view your monetary investment as a means to obtain cards that will increase your likelihood to build a high-level tournament caliber deck that will drive up your points next season that is an aspect of this, sure. But, these events are also about a day of fun, including, yes, drafting! In that regard, as Vince astutely pointed out, this set is crazy fun. In general, smaller sets like this one are superior prerelease/draft sets because the likelihood of actually getting lines out is much greater than with the 100+ card sets.
On a similar note, the sets themselves are not constructed around giving players all superpowered tournament staples. Whether or not they should be is certainly a fair topic for discussion, but the current mix seems to favor popular pokemon, nostalgia for us old timers (hello, Sneasel!), and T/S/St that willl need to be creatively incorporated into the new format. IIRC, when RR came out, there were detractors then, too!!

Attendance down?? Not in my area!

I didn't realise that Meganium45 wasn't a moderator, but some Pokemon Professors do seem to have those same views. I know POP prevents Professors from making any negative comments, but there are problems there and making it seem not a problem just drives a wedge between players and those people. Whether you agree with the player's opinions or not, it doesn't matter. They're the people who are attending the Pre Releases and other tournaments and if POP wants good attendences, they're the people who need to be listened to. It's not just me who feels this way, look at the popularity of forums like Heytrainer.

For me and I bet most people, I find Battle Roads, City Championships and other tournaments just as enjoyable as Pre Releases. Those tournaments are all pretty cheap compared to Pre Releases ( even free in some places ) so despite enjoying the Pre Releases, $30 isn't easy to come by without a job so I like to have some playable cards I can take away at the end of the day. Most players probably fall into that category of still being in Education.

If the sets are not constructed around giving superowered tournament staples, then how come this has been the main set that people are not going to attend Pre Releases for? I've been playing since GE-on and for the amount of playable cards ( SV was my only other problem set because of the not needed filler ), and this set seems to have a huge lack of playable cards.

 

[Politoed666]

I don't see what the problem is.

Yes, when cards are released obviously has a large impact on the game, but you also have to look at the fact that once those cards are released, it's not like some people still don't have access to them. Everyone could have chosen to use ERL upon its release if they so desired, so the timeframe of its release is sort of irrelevant to creating, say, imbalances in the game. Maybe it being released before the rotation made some decks overpowered... people have the option to play those decks. If they choose not to, what cards are in the set is not to blame.

Also, I'd like to point out that Scizor Prime, Vileplume UD, and both UD Legends are considerably better cards than Lanturn Prime, RSE, SRL, and most of the Unleashed set. Unleashed had some good cards in it, such as Kingdra Prime, but overall I feel the sets are pretty balanced.

 

[Prime]

Oh, and for no prizes for draft, one of us has 2 professor cups both in limited format. I'll take my draft skillz against most anyone, thank you very much.

*bows* :thumb:

I do wish draft were incorporated into tournaments more. I know just recently at Gencon, the miniature game I play had a World Championship, where you could get to Day 2 of Day 3 of the event by winning in the draft tournament. I thought it was rather cool and broadcasted the appreciation of a totally different set of skills, even if luck-biased.

In EVERY card game 75%+ of the cards are non-playable in the sets. Pick the game, there's the facts.

I think your facts are wrong. For the longest time, all I knew of was Pokemon, but within the time I've been playing Pokemon, I've tried out a ton of different games. I've tried Duel Masters, Magic, YGO, UFS, VS System, Spoils, Naruto/DBZ and have looked into WoW TCG. To say that 75% of every set in every game is unplayable is absolutely wrong. To say that 75% of every set in every game is not top tier playable would be closer to the truth. But there is a big difference between non-playable and top tier. I see plenty of people playing YGO and magic decks with non-top tier cards in them. They don't win every game, but they do win some.

The difference with Pokemon is that this large amount of useless cards are made up of a lot of pre-evolution stages. I'll use Undaunted as an example. There are 90 cards in the set, and there are 32 pre-evolution stages taking up space. That's slightly more than 1/3 of the set made up of cards that won't actually have any use in a deck other than being the ladder to the top evolved stage. You don't see this in ANY OTHER (popular) CARD GAME because no other (popular) card game has evolution stages to the extremity that Pokemon does. Right off the bat, 1/3 of the set is already filler.

And I understand that neither TPC, TPCi, nor Nintendo (oA, oJ) can change that fact without changing the entire game. I'm just stating statistics here.

So, when 1/3 of the set is filler, and another 10% of the set is trainers/energy, there is a large importance for that other 55% of the set to be decent. Knowing that uncommons and half the rares aren't going to be that playable, that leaves it up to a good 20% of the set to actually "put up or shut up". Unfortunately for Undaunted, the best cards from the set were moved to Unleashed, so in the case of Undaunted, it really didn't present many new good cards to the format.

 

[Biggie]

Sorry for the side tangent, but I would like to address this rather common misconception.

I just find that being a professor shouldn't be a job that comes with so much of a "let's keep quiet because we are told so-game" more than someone putting in the time and helping the community.

No one has ever demanded that Professors "keep quiet". The Professor Core Values simply say:

it is unprofessional to publicly make negative comments about Pokémon, the Pokémon TCG, or TPCi without first trying to resolve these issues with TPCi via private communication.

In other words, Professors must either use some tact and state their critique without being negative, (ie: "This is not my favorite set thus far" instead of "This set is a waste, just trash it!") or use the direct line they have to us in order to let us know directly what’s bothering them. Neither of those options involves anyone having to "keep quiet".

If a single post from the Pokegym is goingnto stop me from eventually becoming a TO/LL (in which I may like to become), then I don't think being a professor is the right job for me, I can post my opinion without being warned as a regular player.
Don't take this as me wanting to stop being a professor, I love that title and cherish it, but, I just don't want to behave in any certain behavior and be a fake person.

I won’t lie; a single post might well have the effect you mention and more if I determine that the post is negative or harmful enough or indicates harm is being done locally.

If a Professor does not want to be told that they need to behave is a certain way, I don’t know what to tell them. The Professor Core Values clearly state what we expect of our Professors, tournament rules say what we expect of players, and even our sites terms and conditions have rules that you have to follow in order to be part of our OP program.

If anyone is confused about the difference between being told to keep quiet and being told to use some tact, or if they are not clear on the difference between soap-boxing publically or venting to us directly, please contact me directly and I will be happy to explain it as best I can.

Since I am on this thread already I should try not to be entirely off topic.

I notice Biggie comes on when there is something to be said about the OP or POP or whatever...what are his thoughts on this situation and these horrible sets?

I disagree that the set is horrible personally and I think that the Pre Release attendance and this thread show that I am not the only one with the opinion. Everyone is of course free to have their own thoughts on the topic, but I will be interested in how the opinion of this set changes as more time goes on.

 

[smacktack15]

Sorry for the side tangent, but I would like to address this rather common misconception.
No one has ever demanded that Professors "keep quiet". The Professor Core Values simply say:
In other words, Professors must either use some tact and state their critique without being negative, (ie: "This is not my favorite set thus far" instead of "This set is a waste, just trash it!") or use the direct line they have to us in order to let us know directly what’s bothering them. Neither of those options involves anyone having to "keep quiet".


I won’t lie; a single post might well have the effect you mention and more if I determine that the post is negative or harmful enough or indicates harm is being done locally.

If a Professor does not want to be told that they need to behave is a certain way, I don’t know what to tell them. The Professor Core Values clearly state what we expect of our Professors, tournament rules say what we expect of players, and even our sites terms and conditions have rules that you have to follow in order to be part of our OP program.

If anyone is confused about the difference between being told to keep quiet and being told to use some tact, or if they are not clear on the difference between soap-boxing publically or venting to us directly, please contact me directly and I will be happy to explain it as best I can.

Since I am on this thread already I should try not to be entirely off topic.

I disagree that the set is horrible personally and I think that the Pre Release attendance and this thread show that I am not the only one with the opinion. Everyone is of course free to have their own thoughts on the topic, but I will be interested in how the opinion of this set changes as more time goes on.

Thank you for responding to this thread and I completely understand what you mean. My main point was after Unleashed (a set I was semi disappointed in) and then Undaunted comes along and it is almost anger some but, I guess nothing can change it. Will I be attending any more pre-releases? Maybe. Will I support the next set if it is better than UL-UN? Definitely! I love this game too much and sometimes I speak without thinking, I do know I have to behave a certain way but, I don't want it to completely control my life. I will be careful on how I post my opinions in the future :thumb:

 

[Biggie]

I will be careful on how I post my opinions in the future :thumb:

That's cool but don't forget that if you really just have to cut loose and vent, we have a forum for that too. :thumb:

Edit to add:
Just so we are on the same page, I hope you know that I was not trying to scold you about your posts. What worries me is that a lot of folks seem to think that they are being hushed or told that that they have to act like they love everything we do when that’s not our intent at all.

We don’t expect anyone to love every single thing we do, and we don’t want anyone to lie and pretend that they do. As I mention in the thread, all we ask is that people talk about what they don’t like with some tact or vent to us if they are so upset that they really have to let loose.

 

[smacktack15]

That's cool but don't forget that if you really just have to cut loose and vent, we have a forum for that too. :thumb:

Which forum would that be? I truly don't know about it

 

[TheGeneral]

I disagree that the set is horrible personally and I think that the Pre Release attendance and this thread show that I am not the only one with the opinion. Everyone is of course free to have their own thoughts on the topic, but I will be interested in how the opinion of this set changes as more time goes on.

Let me ask you then--did you have this sort of slam feedback when SF came out? LA? PL? Even RR? Those sets brought new decks/archtypes/whatever you want to call them and made the format diverse. These newer sets are mostly filled with junk that will never see the light of day after PR.

I understand your guys' main focus are younger kids who want mommy and daddy to buy them packs and that is cool, but...us competitive players feel this format is getting horribly stale. We all buy packs/boxes/cases/attend PR/& support the program. A lot of us are just tired of the same 2-3 decks top cutting, tired of the same crap sets that bring us 3 or 4 good/competitive/worthwhile cards and 85-90 bad ones. And as time goes on, I don't see the feelings changing about this set. There really isn't anything good that counters the two top decks in the format: Sablelock and Luxchomp; in fact, they only get stronger. So another year of those two it will be.

 

[Meesie6x6]

That's cool but don't forget that if you really just have to cut loose and vent, we have a forum for that too. :thumb:

Actually, he is banned from that one :wink:

 

[Biggie]

Let me ask you then--did you have this sort of slam feedback when SF came out? LA? PL? Even RR? Those sets brought new decks/archtypes/whatever you want to call them and made the format diverse. These newer sets are mostly filled with junk that will never see the light of day after PR.

Well you are asking about a couple of sets that came out before I was hired but since I have been with TPCi I have yet to see a set that was not bashed by at least some people. This was true at other companies I have worked for as well. Every new product is hailed as the best thing ever by some people and declared the worst thing to happen to the game ever by others. It's the nature of having a large and healthy player base really.

I understand your guys' main focus are younger kids who want mommy and daddy to buy them packs and that is cool, but...us competitive players feel this format is getting horribly stale. We all buy packs/boxes/cases/attend PR/& support the program. A lot of us are just tired of the same 2-3 decks top cutting, tired of the same crap sets that bring us 3 or 4 good/competitive/worthwhile cards and 85-90 bad ones. And as time goes on, I don't see the feelings changing about this set. There really isn't anything good that counters the two top decks in the format: Sablelock and Luxchomp; in fact, they only get stronger. So another year of those two it will be.

Previously you have seemed upset at the set contents, now you are talking format while folks like Prime seem concerned that the adjustments we have to make in order release the product globally outside of Japan in a healthy and successful manner is the issue. A lot of those topics are not things I can really go into in depth (product release and global marketing kind of being outside POP's purview) but what I can say is that we have a lot of good people making the best decisions they can to keep this game we all love growing and successful.

Will every set have a foil for the favored deck of the moment? No, but that does not mean the foil will never exist. If a set does not have the next big thing in it, is the whole set worthless, or will folks find new tools, techs, and concepts that may see a lot of use later? You say that only two decks are prevalent, our data shows that the spread is a bit healthier than that. You have decided what you think about the set now while other people may decide not to make up their mind just yet. Maybe you will end up being right and this set won’t drastically adjust the playing field right now, but I feel that the fact that this is not the last set we will ever release means that it may be far too soon to tell. Does one of us have to be right, or can we have a different perspective?

Actually, he is banned from that one :wink:

News to me. smacktack15, drop me a PM on this and I will look into it when I get back from Worlds.

 

[ashinto]

I kinda like this set. It is like HGSS which was kinda decent. Though I think that everyone will keep complaining until we get another Stormfront.

 

[TheGeneral]

Does one of us have to be right, or can we have a different perspective?

Different perspective it is :thumb: lol

 

[thepliskin5005]

Well the legend cards are real good in this set and houndoom prime isnt bad and umbreaon is alright with espieon from majestic dawn and scizor prime is the best prime in the set.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

Houndoom Prime IS bad. It's terrible.

 

[NoPoke]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr5

 

[XarrinNM]

Though I think that everyone will keep complaining until we get another Stormfront.

Which will probably be the next set (assuming it's the rest of CatS and Lost Link):

Machamp (both)
Gengar Prime
Yanmega Prime
Magnezone Prime
Electrode Prime
Mr. Mime
Pachirisu
Grumpig (could be good someday)
Solrock
Ditto
DCL
DPL
Hunter
Lost World
Junk Arm
Indigo Plateau
Rescue Energy
Twins
Black Belt
Lost Remover

Then you even have Victreebell, Magmortar, and Nidoking (which would probably be some of the best cards if they were in UD, which is pretty sad).

A good amount of these cards are game changers while the rest are at the very least interesting.

UD does have potential in some cards though, Scizor is nice, and so are the legends. We'll just have to see how the format shakes out. But you'll definitely want to save your money for our November set.

 

[Biggie]

Actually, he is banned from that one :wink:

He just PM'ed me and I think you and I are talking about different forums. There is a Pokémon OP forum where volunteers have direct access to POP and are allowed vent as it is a volunteer only forum.

 

[Prime]

To post a positive message, the recent change to theme decks is a great improvement on their part, and I feel the organized play of the game is getting better and better every year. The league promos for this past year have been amazing compared to the years in the past with lame POP set packs. Everything seems to be getting better, but this is one area that I felt compelled to talk about.

 

[Meesie6x6]

He just PM'ed me and I think you and I are talking about different forums. There is a Pokémon OP forum where volunteers have direct access to POP and are allowed vent as it is a volunteer only forum.

yeah, i tought about another one