Thank you EVERYONE for an excellent game!
Thank you ABSOL for a fantastic game!
This will probably be a rather long post, so be warned :thumb:
EXCELLENT. EXCELLENT GAME.
I cannot stress this enough. Absol you threw wrenches into my plans SO often. I was reeling by some of the things you posted in the updates.
To make things logical, I'm going to split this post into a few parts.
- My general thoughts on the game (probably split between general and specific)
- Thoughts about the way the game played out
- Thoughts about the style of play/players in the game.
- Analysis and critique of my play overall.
- Critiques of the Game for Absol.
- General concluding comments
1: Thoughts on the Game, specifically and generally.
Absol. Again. I can't thank you enough for the game. It was phenomenal, and I greatly enjoyed playing. Of course, I'm biased because I lived through the entire game, but it was an intricately complex game that brought out some excellent play in many of the players involved.
It took a while, but you succeeded in bringing me deeply into the game. I'll get into this later, but I was very meh about the game early on. Not because it wasn't interesting, but because I was swamped in Dental School. But this game was so good I was roped into playing with my whole heart.
Other general thoughts. The factions were pretty well balanced from my perspective. The wolves would have won had the village mislynched. The fact that it was this close shows the balance was pretty close. The independents exited the game early, but much of that happens already due to killing roles.
I'm glad that everyone had a role. It makes the game interesting and fun. However, I feel that sometimes it causes people to not look at what people say. This causes players to play the game within a bubble, only paying attention to votes and role reveals. I don't feel this increases the skill of players. It also makes the updates incredibly complex. Right now I guess I don't have a specific thought on that right now.
2:Thoughts on the way the Game played out.
It was a great game. I was thoroughly confused many times during the later Nights. The wolves killing one of their own Night 1 was definitely sketchy, and it allowed me to call out DC725's shenanigans. The Jedi and the Sith's infighting helped give a different spin on the updates, and provided something for the wolves to hide behind.
To be honest, at the beginning of the game I kind of wanted the wolves to win. It's been 13 games here on the Gym, and the Wolves have never won. Ever. 6 Games the Town had won (now 7), 6 games Indies have won. After all this time, it seemed like the wolves needed a win. I'll go into this later, but it effected my play slightly at the beginning.
Overall, the anti-town played the game well. With a few exceptions, they played how they should have, and definitely threw fits for the town players.
A good show to the town the entire game by making the days last as long as possible. We definitely used that time to it's greatest effect late in the game, and it paid off I believe.
Congratulations to the town for victory!
3: My analysis of individual play style, in order of Absol's role thing above. I'm not going to mention everyone, because really most of my attention was focused towards the middle-late section of the game, so I missed much of the early conversation. Don't be offended if you aren't mentioned.
Ikrit, Marvelous game. You've definitely moved into the position of a veteran already. The domination you laid out on jpulice that one day was so excellent and logical. Thorough applause. I was a little shocked when you died, and it was revealed you were the Alpha.
Dragonclyne725. Thank you for not giving up. It was a struggle to continue to hammer you as I did, because I knew time was running out for the town. I didn't know it was that close. I feel you could have thrown much doubt on my arguments if you had had time. Namely you could have mentioned that if a role-swap had occurred, ANY of the noted townies could have been the wolf. (since a role-swap would show as town to seers). There were other things I thought of, but in any case. You played well for what you were given, and I don't know if I could have escaped from lynching in your situation.
I do want to ask: Did you kill Napoleon because I pointed him at you?
Good Job over all.
PF5 Good try. But ultimately it didn't help you. The updates worked against you. Otherwise you might have been able to pull off your gambit. It was your last chance.
It didn't work but it was a good idea. Well done.
Benzo I'm sad that you immediately gave up after gallade's bluff. No one should ever give up. I guess lesson learned for next time! I hope you play again.
Redados1 Sorry you got the brunt of my role this game. You revealed first and thus became my first target. Though your energymite helped us win in the end. (I had never heard of energymite until you mentioned it, and never connected the dots until 2 nights after you died what you meant by it. ) My bad, but you helped the town win in the end.
Cardz I'm a bit disappointed with your play this game. As I've said (through myself, Redados, Dave628, and Jellyfisher) you should have been more active. I had you pegged as a Sith for days on end, and it took a long time to convince me otherwise. I understand what it means to be busy, BELIEVE IT! But it was still disappointing that you were so inactive and still survived to the end of the game. But I'm glad that you were town.
Jellyfisher I have to say, I thought you were scum hands down. I'm glad you didn't jump on me for jumping on you. Thanks. I still think you could have been more forthcoming with information, regardless of who asked. The only scenario where that doesn't work would be a game where there is a "Day Kill", which only happened in Cardz' last game. Other than that good work being a seer. Once I used my role on you and found out you were telling the truth, I was behind you the rest of the game.
Scottistru Good play towards the end of the game there. I commend you for standing up to me and accusing me of Sith-ness. It must have been difficult. I'm glad that we were able to work out our differences and come together to win the game.
Very well played.
SS7 I'll get to you.
A/AM Your sacrifice was most appreciated. Well played.
Diaz I'm sorry you died so soon, but those are the breaks. I know you are a great player, and look forward to playing again with you.
Napoleon Well played. You had very good logical reasoning and didn't resort to OMWBBQIKR long posts like I did to get your well though out point across.
I'm sorry you got the shaft of my gambit. It won the town the game, but I do feel bad that you had to die for it to succeed. I'm sorry.
KP You did a great job this game. You have my appreciation for your posts and the willingness to step in half-way and see the game through to the conclusion.
PCPB Excellent EXCELLENT game. Well played my friend. As someone who completely understands what you were put through, I highly applaud you for playing the way you did. Sure it might have been ultra-conservative and maybe a bit boring, but you played the role well, and were able to reap the benefits of un-suspicious Night actions. If the same type of roles are in future games, they should take a page from your (our) playbook.
jpulice Thanks for seeing my crumbs. I'm glad we were able to understand one another, but unfortunately that meant you were a prime target for the wolves. I should have started crumbing earlier, but the nature of my role meant I couldn't reveal.
gallade Good job for not giving up. You made the town dubious of who you were up until the very end. The way the numbers were swinging on my end I was not completely positive until the end.
4. SS7. TL;DR
5. Critiques about the Game for Absol.
And so we get to the
You really didn't think I'd skip a section and give you guys a break, did you????
4. SS7: Critique, Analysis, and overall Interpretation of Actions
I don't really have a pre-prepared statement for you guys. But I'll give as much analysis and explanation as you want. Please, ask me anything.
General Outlook and Playstyle: I've been around the block a couple times. By that I mean I've played in 13/14 of the Werewolf games on the gym. (I'm not counting WW IV, which was at Nats/cancelled, that makes 15). Lucario ex's I honestly just missed the sign ups, so I was sad I missed it. However, I digress.
Since I'm a pretty well known player, I wanted to lay especially low this game. One thing that helped me WAS the fact that I didn't play in XIV. Or at least I'd like to think so. I knew that if I'd be able to stay alive for the first 4-5 days, I could start to make an actual impact in the game. I never like the early game of WW. Too many variables (as I alluded to earlier in this game). My main goal was to stay out of trouble and not arouse suspicions. I wanted people to know I was playing, but still not go after anyone specific with any kind of weight.
I also stayed low because I started Dental School in August. Especially the first 6 weeks (Gross Anatomy) was brutal, though eventually I found a point at which I could take a breather from studying every day and spend some time on the game (coincidentally around Thanksgiving/Christmas break).
Finally, in the back of my mind I kinda wanted the wolves to win. As I alluded to, they were the underdogs, and I thought it would be cool if they won once. However, my competitive spirit got the best of me once Ikrit died.
Thus, I started WW as I usually did, staying low and making very inconsequential posts.
Night 1 I did nothing, since there was no role revealed Day 1.
Night 2 I targeted Redados1. He role-revealed, thus I targeted. It gave me a way to see the effects of my role/who I was during the update, as well as a possible Kill had Redados lied. He didn't. Thus I silenced the "Aged Guardian-Protector" Yoda/Jedi. Everything makes sense now, right? I Used Redados to throw doubt on the Night 1 Shenanigans without having to do it myself.
Night 3 I targeted Dave628, but my role failed.
Night 4 I targeted Dave628 and succeeded. I used this opportunity to draw attention to Cardz (I believe, its been a long time), that he wasn't posting much.
Night 5 I didn't use it. No one revealed.
Right about this point is when I turned up the heat and began playing in earnest.
Night 6 = I didn't use it. No one revealed.
Night 7 I chose Jellyfisher because I still thought he might be Sith/Giovanni. He was telling the truth, so I immediately began believing him. I also threw discussion towards Cardz (I think)
Night 8 was thunderjolt's night, but he avoided me. :thumb:
Night 9 I chose PF5, but I was sequestered in the Hangar because I picked up the Commlink. I was unable to Kill PF5 but knew he lied, and said so.
Night 10 was Dragonclyne725. He was truthful but avoided my 85% silencing ability. I also was able to use this even though KP targeted me.
Night 11 I didn't use my role again. I could have used it on KP, Thunderjolt, JQ, Napoleon, or Pikajew1213, but I didn't want to. Number 1 because I wanted to exactly pinpoint whether there was another Sith or not. If I knew my own wereabouts, I'd be able to pinpoint myself during the Day as evidence, plus be able to check if a Sith remained. Number 2 because the other players other than thunderjolt were pretty much set as townies in my mind. Number 3 because I didn't want to reveal that I could manipulate posts. No one had caught on to this (due to me not putting controversial information in the posts.), and I didn't want my already shaky reputation harmed so close to the end of the game.
Now for my day actions.
Again I laid low for the majority of the first few days. I wanted to survive mainly. As the game progressed, I got pulled into it and started posting more. Some of my main thoughts:
Jellyfisher. You were so suspicious I thought you were Giovanni. I've said this before, but I thought you were Gio. SO completely that when I misread (though it wasn't my fault, TheKing changed which day he was asking about immediately prior to your and my posts) your post I thought you had claimed my role for Night 5. Since I knew I was that person and I knew you weren't I immediately voted for you. It was only after Toxictaipan's post that I realized my error.
Jpulice. I thought you were Sith/Scum too. Especially after Ikrit beat you down. However when he was revealed as Palpatine and you role-claimed I knew you had to be Katarn. Katarn would be to easy of a character to counterclaim, and since no one did, it was guaranteed to be you. I'll get into this later, but I'm sorry I couldn't just come out and say who I was.
gallade and DC725: Again excellent playing. Other than a few minor tweaks that may or may not have helped, you did what scum should have done. Stayed in the game and threw as much doubt as you could.
Now, about my role.
I'm going to start off by saying I worked myself into a corner by the way I played out the RRA. I eventually had to convince people I was town, and so I had to say I was the Role-Reveal Assassin (Vigilante) without SAYING I was the Role-Reveal Assassin. What sense would it make if I just came right out and said it??? None! Even though it wasn't forbidden literally in my role, I knew other players might jump on me if I outright REVEALED I was the ROLE REVEAL ASSASSIN/VIG. Logical contradiction much? Thus my whole point in "The very nature of my role forbids me from revealing."
I'm honestly sorry I couldn't outright reveal. But if I had, I'm sure that someone would have said that made no sense and voted for me. I was on shaky ground already. I couldn't afford doing something that would be so suspicious.
I BELIEVE THAT I SKATED ON VERY THIN ICE for that last third of the game. It didn't feel like I was in control of anything, but that I was a razor's edge away from death each and every game day.
Anyway:
I was in a very precarious spot after the first 6-7 Nights. I had done very little significant talking during the day, and my actions were decidedly un-townie (thought I couldn't have known until after that I had targeted a townie). Unfortunately for me no one ever revealed a lying role (other than PF5), so I had no concrete Night evidence I could use to show myself as townie. Thus, proving my town-ship was extremely hard. I also shot myself in the foot by over zealously jumping on Jellyfisher and jpulice.
However, I was able to somehow pull it off with a mixture of transparency, blind luck, and some quick thinking. I picked up the Commlink Night 9 (after deducing that it indeed summoned Wobbufett). I was unable to tell everyone this during Day 10 due to how Wobbufett's role worked. He would kill me if I told anyone. (as Scott alluded to). Fortunately, it allowed me to kill 2 birds in one stone. PCPB's role was a protection, which I immediately used on myself. I felt that I might be in danger and protected myself.
No one targeted me, but I was able to:
- Have complete and utter seclusion (I was restricted to the Hangar the whole Night, which was and would have been acknowledged by PCPB and any other living user of the commlink.
- Have a direct way to show I was Not the Active Sith at the time.
Thus, my discovery of the remaining Sith.
As the game wound down, however:
I'd spent the entire game trying to be as "neutral" as I possibly could be. I didn't want to outright call someone one anything without complete proof or evidence (hence my Lynch All Liars claim on jellyfisher, immediately retracted). I knew that since there were two anti-town factions, I would be at much higher risk if I went after either one too hard. Fortunately I spent most of the game going after the Sith, since I thought their win condition meant the town might lose imminently. This I think kept the wolves off my back for the majority of the last third of the game. I spent most of my resources on outing the Sith. (theKing, gallade) Hopefully not giving the wolves much reason to kill me, since I was not going after them.
Yet Day 11 rolled around and we had almost everything accounted for. gallade was the last Sith (which I was about 85% sure of, not 99%). Everything was going according to plan. EXCEPT ONE THING.
DC725 told the truth about his role. That threw everything out of whack. I thought (and even PM'ed Absol in my role PM) that I had killed the last wolf, since I knew DC725 was the wolf. I apologized to Absol because the wolves didn't win this time. And then DC725 didn't die. And I was thrown for a loop AGAIN (for probably the 4-5th time).
So, I was left with a choice. Should I leave DC725 alone? Should I mention that he told the truth? Should I use my role again on him and make him say that he was the final wolf in sheep's clothing? (this was very tempting).
It was a difficult dilemma. On one hand I was so sure he was the wolf, but yet if I came right out and said it I would be the biggest target, since I wasn't going to change the momentum versus gallade that late in the day. And so I hatched a most devious plan. One that unfortunately won us the game, but at the cost of another player.
I waited.
And waited.
Then on the final day of the Day (11), I posted. I said that DC725 had been telling the truth. I said that if he had lied, he would have died. I said that if I could have done anything, he would have died. I set myself up as a player handcuffed by the restrictions of his role, that I could do nothing even if I wanted to.
And I did the most distasteful thing by setting up a target squarely on Napoleon's back. I said (in not so blatant terms) that Napoleon should kill DC725, because I'm powerless to stop him. Napoleon would be the biggest threat to DC725 that Night. Napoleon had a Kill, that was confirmed. Napoleon did not want to aim himself, that was confirmed. Napoleon was aimed at DC725, that was alluded to. (Scott wanted thunderjolt, but I thought I might have more sway)
And so I sprung my trap. I posted, giving DC725 as little time to think about it as I could. I said he told the truth. I said I still thought he was false somehow, I said I wanted Napoleon to kill him, and I said I could do nothing during the Night to stop DC725.
I don't know whether my plan worked as I intended, but Napoleon did indeed die. And so I was protected during Night 11 and was able to bring the hammer down on DC725 the next day.
My argument against DC725 might have been visually impressive, there were a number of holes he could have poked in it. Unfortunately he couldn't spend enough responding to me. Regardless, it was a good day.
I also will say this game made me create an Excel document with 15+ pages, with pages devoted to complete analysis of each Night update, with additional pages designated for alignment tracking, Sith/Jedi number math, and lists of my hunches.
A final critique:
SS7, don't take so much time posting. You guys have no idea how much time I spent this game writing posts. I'd start a post in the morning during breaks in classes and I would spend easily 4-5 hours writing and editing and editing and editing and editing my posts so that they were just right. Don't wish you were me. Because I spent way too much time writing those posts. :thumb:
5: Critiques of the Game for Absol. To start off with I'd like to congratulate you by saying this was one of greatest games of WW I've ever played. It was a fantastic game. But, as you asked, I won't hold back. I'll give what I thought the strengths and weaknesses of this game.
Strengths:
Number of roles. I really enjoyed that everyone had an interesting thing to do during the Night. It gives the game complexity and intrigue.
Detail of Updates. I've said this before. I prefer more information that too little information. Even though it might bite me in the behind (See WW IX), when I was the Town Vig and everyone killed me without thinking logically about what I had done (I also was silenced that day, so that didn't help).
Complexity of the Game. The fact that I had to update my Excel spreadsheet every day with new information was definitely a good thing. Keeping the players guessing in a game where so much information is revealed was excellent.
Weaknesses:
Update schedule. Now I completely understand being busy. I know. But you were willing to mod it, so it should have been a priority above other leisure activities. Anyway, I know that you know this, so I won't beat a dead horse so to speak.
The amount of information revealed. Now I just said that I like too much information rather than too little. This is still true. But it got to a point where people really didn't pay attention to anything other than votes and role claims. They'd just look to the update and ignore everything else. In the end, WW is a communal game where people investigate what players SAY. I fell into this trap as well, but came around at the end. We needed to look at the words/arguments others were using, rather than just their role-reveals and the update. But that is also our fault, not yours completely.
Number of Roles Unfortunately I think this was a strength and a weakness. Because everyone had a role, everyone could be correlated to a Night action. There were no "vanilla" roles to hide behind. While I like having a Night role, and I imagine EVERYONE does, but at some point it seems like a few "vanilla roles" might be a good idea.
Other general thoughts:
1. Epic Mass Effect references (Arceus anyone?). "You have attracted the attention of those infinitely your greater." I know where you are going with your next game (even if its in 5 years, I'll play in it.) I also think I've come up with the thrust of the game. PM me for details. I was sitting in lab and I stumbled upon the idea while drilling plastic teeth. I might have also come up with a completely new and unique WW mechanic for said game. Sorry, but no more information will be made public. :thumb:
2. You didn't give up, even when you were struggling to get information out. I'm glad. I don't think the game would have been as epic had you handed it off halfway.
3. That video was excellent. That must have taken a lot of work and dedication. Thumbs up.
4. You've set the bar higher than it has ever been before. Again, congratulations on a truly wonderful game.
5. You've also inspired me to begin brainstorming my own WW game. @ Everyone else: Don't hold your breath. IF it does occur, don't expect it for another few years or WW XVIII, whichever comes later.
6: General concluding comments:
I cannot stress this enough. Way to go Absol. Way to go everyone else who made WW XV one of the best WW games on the Gym.
I'm going to have to work ULTRA hard to lie low next game. I've painted such a huge target on my back that I don't think I'll live past Night 2 the next few games.
Excellent play everyone.
Thank you for such an amazing game. I'll accept the nomination of MVP if you truly want to vote for that, but I'd like to say it was a group game. Many players contributed deeply, and I could not have pulled off the victory for the town without such players like Jellyfisher, KingPiplup, PCPB, Napoleon, Scottistru, and A/AM.
TOWN:" Y U NO WRITE SHORT POSTS SS7?"
SS7: "I don't always post, but when I do they are 800 paragraphs long."
With New Info:
A/AM. WAY TO GO!!! I'm STOKED to play in your game. SO STOKED!
jpulice. I have NO idea what you were going with with those letters. To this day. I just used them to play along and get you to understand. I think it worked.
Don't look to me on how to manage clue drops. Toxictaipan would be the one to analyze. I only started crumbing Day ~8. I didn't even acknowledge my character was in the game until way late. I've got some stuff to learn myself. I agree with you about Jellyfisher being the midgame MVP hands down. Just as I was the crux during the final Nights, Jellyfisher was the crux during the middle of the game.
. It was worth trying at least. Like AT said, I play D&D VERY actively and with that sometimes pushing the envelope and outside the box thinking can be rewarded...except in this case.
