Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

What's the rule on deck checks?

As a participant I like doing 100% deck checks before the event. It takes a bit more time up front ... but it also saves time since judges don't have to be doing random deck checks later on.
 
SteveP said:
Keith, I don't see how you come to that conclusion (10%, then another 10%). I suppose the first sentence in the Deck Check rule could be constued as a bit ambiguous regarding that all decks be checked, or just 10%. I read the rule to mean that the 10% is referring to spot deck checks to police those who might change their decks after registration.

Furthermore Keith, when you quote from the Deck Registration rule, I think you'll agree that the deck list MUST be turned in before the tournament starts. I'll agree that the timing of the deck checks is left for PTO interpretation.

Anyway, I'll concede that because the Deck Check rule is a bit ambiguous, a spot check of 10% of the decks through out the tournament could be sufficient for PTOs adhering to the "letter of the law." However, I take my example from POP and PTOs who run high-level premier events - 100% deck checks BEFORE the tournament.
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Steve, Keith is correct in what he says.
It is 10% of the total, not a deck check of all and then 10%.
Optional deck checks were done at Nationals and at Worlds.
Deck Lists are mandatory, initial deck checks are not.

Good idea for Juniors and new players, but not mandatory.
 
SteveP said:
Keith, I don't see how you come to that conclusion (10%, then another 10%). I suppose the first sentence in the Deck Check rule could be constued as a bit ambiguous regarding that all decks be checked, or just 10%. I read the rule to mean that the 10% is referring to spot deck checks to police those who might change their decks after registration.

Furthermore Keith, when you quote from the Deck Registration rule, I think you'll agree that the deck list MUST be turned in before the tournament starts. I'll agree that the timing of the deck checks is left for PTO interpretation.

Anyway, I'll concede that because the Deck Check rule is a bit ambiguous, a spot check of 10% of the decks through out the tournament could be sufficient for PTOs adhering to the "letter of the law." However, I take my example from POP and PTOs who run high-level premier events - 100% deck checks BEFORE the tournament.
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SteveP: I'll be sure to pass that info along to Mike L, Pete and Dave at the next premier tourney they run (ie Nats) that you think their events aren't "high level". :wink:

Sometimes, it just isnt practical to do full deck checks (pre tourney) and get out af a venue in the proper time. I've done it both ways.....you do what fits the venue and staff best for that tourney. Doing a 100% deck check prior to the tourney only catches the "illegal" cards or bad sleeves....it doesnt catch the cheaters!

Keith
 
I think optional deck checks before an event is the way to go. Events are getting so large (People are drawing 65-70+ at BRs aren't they?) that the time it would take to do mandatory pre-tournament deck checks just aren't worth it at all. If someone wants to cheat, they are going to find a way to do it after getting everything looking fine for a deck check. I mean, let's say you have a 50 player event and 2 judges. By the time you factor in the time for the deck check, plus moving people through the line, point out mistakes and get them fixed, I think you're looking at 40 minutes of deck checking minimum. Why waste that time checking decks when instead you can help out all those juniors and new players fill out their deck lists and go through their collection of cards and get all the legal ones together? To me this covers the same thing a deck check would. Remember, a deck check isn't necessarily to cover the PTO/Judge's behind, but rather the players. A player is ALWAYS responsible for the contents of their deck and their deck list, I think POP has made this very clear. So a deck check is really for the players and not the judges, so why not just go with optional ones?
 
Lawman said:
SteveP: I'll be sure to pass that info along to Mike L, Pete and Dave at the next premier tourney they run (ie Nats) that you think their events aren't "high level". :wink:

Sometimes, it just isnt practical to do full deck checks (pre tourney) and get out af a venue in the proper time. I've done it both ways.....you do what fits the venue and staff best for that tourney. Doing a 100% deck check prior to the tourney only catches the "illegal" cards or bad sleeves....it doesnt catch the cheaters!

Keith
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Huh? I think you misread my comment. US Nats is high-level. POP runs high-level tournaments.

I can't speak for every PTO, but our CO PTOs do what's necessary to accomplish 100% pre-tournament deck checks. We don't have the biggest attendance, but we're not too shabby either.

POP has cut back a bit on the staff support for local events, so I suppose 100% deck checks are among the first local cut-backs. I'm glad that deck check cut-backs haven't happened here.
 
I'm sure I'm just being dense but can some one remind me where it says that deck lists are manadatory for premiere level events?

[Personally thats the kind of question that only a few minutes after posting I'll realise my error and have a big Doh! moment. We shall see if the technique works this time LOL]
 
NoPoke, I'm not sure what you're asking, but it specifically says "deck checks" are mandatory for premier events (see earlier posts). While doing deck checks, you need deck lists, and the rules state that deck lists are turned in during deck registration, before the tournament starts.

So, deck lists are mandatory (go back and look at lawman's post).
 
Steve, It is possible to check that a deck meets the format requirements without a decklist.
 
PokePop said:
Steve, Keith is correct in what he says.
It is 10% of the total, not a deck check of all and then 10%.
Optional deck checks were done at Nationals and at Worlds.
Deck Lists are mandatory, initial deck checks are not.

Good idea for Juniors and new players, but not mandatory.
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It's never a good idea to state what's "optional" and "mandatory" for POP-run events like Nats or Worlds. Everything in the rules is "optional" when applied to POP. :tongue::smile:

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

NoPoke said:
Steve, It is possible to check that a deck meets the format requirements without a decklist.
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Nope. Here's the quote from the rules for how to do a deck check:

2007-2008 POP Tournament Rules said:
Deck Contents: The deck checker should verify that the contents
of the player’s deck matches the cards on the deck list. The card
title should match the card listed, and the set abbreviation and
collector number of each of the Pokémon should be listed.
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I suppose if you're only interested in doing a partial deck check such as checking for format adherence, you wouldn't need the deck list. But, a partial deck check is not optional, IMO, for premier events (unless POP is running the event, of course), for deck checks that fall into that mandatory 10%. In that 10%, you gotta do a FULL deck check; otherwise, you're "picking and choosing" what part of the rules you want to follow and ignore.
 
Last edited:
Ian: The rules state that for a premier event, a deck must be registered = deck list. Without a deck list, there is no way to make the minimum 10% deck checks throughout the day. See my long post on the prev. page to see both rules.

SteveP: I put the wink at the end of that statement about Nats and the POP folks bc you stated earlier that you were glad you worked for PTOs that adhered to top notch events with 100% pre-tourney deck checks. I just pointed out that the PUI/OP folks dont agree with that assessment on Deck checks. I know that you think the PUI/OP gang run great events! In fact, when I personally spoke with some of the PUI/OP folks about this very issue (requiring full deck checks pre tourney), the explanation I got back, in a nut shell is this: Deck checks only catches the illegal cards, not the cheaters.

Keith
 
Just IMHO the pre-event deck checks are more than just catching cheaters. Weeding out the illegal cards is a really big deal. The first post, describing juniors in tears, is HUGE when you are talking about the long term health of the game. Pre-event deck checks help the young and new players and there are a lot more of them than there are active cheaters.
 
vanderbilt_grad said:
Just IMHO the pre-event deck checks are more than just catching cheaters. Weeding out the illegal cards is a really big deal. The first post, describing juniors in tears, is HUGE when you are talking about the long term health of the game. Pre-event deck checks help the young and new players and there are a lot more of them than there are active cheaters.
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Absolutely agreed. About 3 years ago we failed to adequately check decks at CO States. A kid had more than 4 of the Pokemon in his deck. He thought the rule-of-4 only applied to individual cards. So, he had multiple versions of the same Pokemon (ie., 4 metal Pikachus and 4 lightning Pikachus). We made him change his deck without a game loss, be he was so devasted that he hasn't returned since.

Also, of all players, our local top Junior player (Tristan - the US Nats Champ) showed up at his first BR with Energy Removal 2's in his deck. The deck checker (me I think), failed to catch that error. Not until the 3rd round did we catch it. With or without the cards, Tristan would've won the event. We applied the penalty (which was reduced to a prize loss), but Tristan handled it well, being the top-notched player he is.
 
I thank everyone for your thoughts!
As I stated originally, the intent is not to catch cheaters but to help the juniors and the newbies from having a bad experience that drives them away from the game.
BTW, we always carry extra decks for other kids who may not have the right cards and such. At my kids' first tournament, a senior player helped them (without even being asked) and lent them his decks so we try to do the same. My son even lost at regionals to someone we helped build a deck before the tournament but he was not upset but happy for the new boy to win.
 
First off it is the PLAYERS responsbility for both the deck and deck list!!! As far as I know all judges that deck checked at Nationals and Worlds told the players this and I have heard Dave Schwimmer say this all the time.

While I do 100% deck check at our events that is by my choice. Mainly because we do have new players all the time and if the deck check is optional they may decide not to do it (i.e. only because they don't know different). As Keith pointed out it is optional and depends on your venue and time constraints. I do have theme decks on hand with the deck sheet already filled out (except name, dob, pop id). I don't want to turn away any player because they don't have a legal deck. If they use the theme deck they can't make any changes to the deck because the deck sheet is turned in right then. This serves multiple purposes: saves time with registration from having to rebuild the deck PLUS the player gets a deck they can modify later (i.e. I had a player this past weekend get an Empoleon TD and did really well with it).

As pointed out in previous posts even with 100% deck check, mistakes happen but it is still the players responsibility!!!
 
Feraligatr said:
First off it is the PLAYERS responsbility for both the deck and deck list!!! As far as I know all judges that deck checked at Nationals and Worlds told the players this and I have heard Dave Schwimmer say this all the time.
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I understand that Gatr but newbies and the little ones need help to understand what modified means, swiss, and other terms used at tournaments. It may seem simple and straightforward to experienced players but is very confusing for them and their parents. So maybe as was suggested in an earlier post, we do a bettter announcement and explanantion at the beginning of the tournament and maybe have a short FAQ to pass out to parents and newbies explaining. Just a thought....
 
OK, let me state that I mistyped on my post. I do complete list checks at the beginning of each event, not deck checks, which are far too time consuming and cumbersome.

I will stand by the statement that all deck lists need to be checked as they are turned in, to make sure the cards are legal.

Sorry if I added to any confusion.

I think a lot of people on this post may be confusing the required "deck list check" from the formal card by card "deck check" which was optional at Nationals. It is my understanding that list checks were done of every decklist. I know they were at Worlds.

Vince
 
Not at Nats.
If someone declined a deck check, their deck list was accepted and they were sent on their way.
 
So, unlike Worlds, noone checked the list to confirm that the deck in the list was legal?

Given that people travelled a long way, and were there for the big prize, I guess, maybe, eh, I can accept that, but in a smaller event, with new players and people right off of the turnip truck, what complications you cause for yourself.

I will take my discussion of this to the PTO forums.

Chase me down there.

Vince
 
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