Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Why are people scared of Dusknoir LV. X?

Riq said:
ok guys. i believe that this Dusknoir Lv.x is an OK card but gengar will tear it to shreads if your opponent does not attacvh his/her unown g's correctly. gengar can constantly use Shadow Room on Dusky and it will be knock-out(with NO effect of the poke-power). i faced i believe 2 or 3 Dusknoir Lv.xs this past weekend and my opponent never had the chance to use ectoplasm.

IMO- Gengar>Dusknoir Lv.X
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Not my Dusknoir list buddy. I was really debating on who to put the G on: A Cresselia, a Snowman or Dusknoir. I tried the Snowman my first game it work alright but the best play is Dusknoir. Then Gengar can't touch it as you can play your hand down to have 0-2 trainers after your turn, and with Wager Gengar can do 30 at most b/c any smart player will choose to draw 1 maybe 2 because with the amount of draw the deck has when playing 3 Dusknoir Shadow Room, and having 2 in play you can draw 10 cards from the top of your deck when Claydol is in play. You control how much damage you...

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put on Dusknoir. So Gengar can touch your Dusknoir while you can still do 50 a turn. Any other tech you add to hurt Dusknoir like Starmie will just get countered by either anyone of my combo. I just posted how I beat two good Gengar players 6-2. Good players who consistently make top cut around here and always have good lists. I'm curious as to who's Dusknoir you beat and what their list was like.

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Lawman said:
Chris: I was wondering if you used the 50 HP or 60 HP Snover, to avoid the Sableye donk. The 'Snow is gaining ground as a nice tech. As you say, it doesnt even matter if it is Kingdra or not, but it is very nice ag'st Kingdra! Could you use a 1-1 Cressy line to run more trainers/supporters?

Keith
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the 60 HP, not just because of Sableye donkage but Curiosity is much more helpful then a flip attack and with only 1 Water in the deck/2 Snover it's highly unlikely that you'll start consistently with both in hand. Then it's only 10 and possible sleep.

As far as Cresslia goes running it's much more consistent to get an early Cresslia Lv.X. And it's a great starter with Call Energy as you can Call Energy T1 and then Future Sight T2. All this to have a great set up T3, attacking with the best attacker for the situation. Usually it's the Snowman as his damage reduction will allow to power up a Dusknoir on the bench, both with Energy and damage. I really don't see the trainers ...

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/Supporters being a problem with all the draw you have via Powers. The 4 Dusk Balls could easily count an extra 2/3 Bebe's. Call Energy acts as an extra 2 Roseanne's. I won't deny that you do miss supporter drops once in a while, but the key drops are the energy as it doesn't have a good cheap, 0/1 energy, attacker and no energy accelerator.
 
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Ur subtlety is a kin to the velocity of a dingus berry. Why even say something's a secret if yuo obviously want people to know. Oh yes we got aLOt of ABOMASNOWs where i live One One Eleven One Exclemation Merkz.
 
chriscobi634 said:
Ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

But in all seriousness, Abomasnow or Snowman as I like to call him cause Abonasnow really helps in the Kingdra match-up as your it takes away the swarming 60/20 and reduces it to just 40. One option that Kingdra still has is that it can build up an Upstream and make it so that the 3HKO is reduced to 2HKOs maybe even OHKOs but every unlikely.

I know people will argue that it doesn't hit any of the bench Kingdra line but it still does hit the Claydol. Then it's only doing 40 per turn with 1 Cresselia Lv.X in play which I can almost always T3 sometimes T4 if I'm not having the greatest start. So the 40 that it does is actually reduced to 30 with Moonlight Dance. In the mean time your setting another Snowman or a Dusknoir, AND hitting their Kingdra for 20 and Claydol for 20. If they have any other techs that aren't Water or Grass those obvious get hit as well.

Like I said I completely destroyed an un-teched Kingdra, but now I'm going to change the list so that it's teched against Kingdra. I expect the match to be closer but still for CAD to pull it out in the end as the same thing happened with in the Torttile match-up. First Torttile wasn't teched for Dusknoir and only managed to take 2 prizes. Then it was teched for Dusknoir but could only win about 30% of games, and almost all games going down to 2-2 or 1-1 prizes. You must remember that anything Kingdra techs in for Dusknoir it losses consistency, so that's what Snowman takes advantage. I compare the two decks vs. CAD because the Snowman doesn't hit any other bench for 20 besides the Claydol, and the active, not including techs.

I'll get you started on a list just so your match-ups are a little more accurate.

Pokemon: 25
3 Duskull (SW, Reaper Cloth best one because of the speed and consistency it gives the deck)
1 Duskull SF/SH(for the energy less attack which I know will really help every now and then)
2 Dusclops D/P (for it's capabilities of spread, even if it flips tails it can self damage and then do more damage with Dusknoir's Damage Even)
1 Dusclops S/F (Dark-eye, it's good to have a one energy attack and something that can disrupt, especially if you start with Duskull and hit heads on it's astonish)
2 Dusknoir S/F (Damage Even, best Dusknoir to spread with)
1 Dusknoir D/P (Might take it out to add a Promo or 3rd Damage Even if Magmortar and AMU still give you a hard time)
1 Dusknoir Lv. X
2 Snover MT (60 HP=No Sableye Donkage, Curiosity is nice for no energy)
2 Abomasnow SF (one of the best side-kicks Dusknoir can have, if not the best because of it's ability to prevent damage to all your Pokemon, not just active, and obviously the spread, Water type could help against Magmorat or any other fire deck like Infernape)
2 Cresselia (Future Sight, again this helps the consistency of the deck more ways then you could imagine)
2 Cresselia Lv.X (we all know why the card is here, and with all the spread you could even take 2 prizes with it's attack if you can power it up on the bench)
2-2 Claydol
1 Unown G
1 Unown Q (for free retreat on your Cresslia, it helps get the first one out much quicker and not having to miss an energy drop or for it to keep it's energy and scare your opponent by dropping another energy onto it)

Supporters: 10
3 Bebe's Search
3 Roseanne's Research
2 Rowan
2 Wager

Trainers: 12
1 Luxury Ball
1 Night Maintenance
2 Warp Point
4 Dusk Ball
2 Rare Candy (only 2 since you play Reaper Cloth Duskull and 3 Dusclops, you could switch to 3 and drop a Dusclops, but still don't drop Reaper Cloth Dusknull)
2 Premier Ball

Energy: 13
4 Call Energy
8 Psychic
1 Water (it actually helped me 4 out of the 10 games I played at Jimmy's Cash Money Tournament, so I would still run it)
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Hmm, good. Someone else who uses the "right" duskull.

So many people seem to skip over that one in favor of one of the newer ones, or disable. Ya disable is great and all, but that extra turn reaper cloth gets you is hard to top.
 
Chris: Interesting build. I may try it out. I do like my Dusk list though.

The reaper cloth duskull is the one to use. Speeds up things.

Keith
 
Does the "reaper cloth" Duskull have 50 HP or 60 HP? If it has 50 HP then the SF "shiny" Duskull is way better imo. I just want to avoid the Sableye DONK.
 
chriscobi634 said:
But in all seriousness, Abomasnow or Snowman as I like to call him cause Abonasnow really helps in the Kingdra match-up

snip
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Ok, as you state you have yourself going by T3, most good kingdra builds will be going at T2 and at the latest T3 (or god hand permitting and going 2nd can have on the 1st turn). If kingdra goes first it'll have a much better head start more often than not (this chance improves if they are running sableye as a starter). Hitting your cresselia/duskull for 60 T2.

If kingdra goes 2nd and doesnt get god hand but can use trainers/supporters will more than likely have Kingdra hitting your abomasnow T2 assuming you have him out by then.

Kingdra's that run PP / bucks can 2HKO abomasnow (even with cresselia) quite easily. Not even counting the 20 that more than likely will be placed on the benched snover .

Also Warp points will hurt you as they will send your abomasnow to the bench while they hit claydol/cresselia/dusknoir for 60 and 20 to abomasnow helping the 2HKO.

Also how do you play around kingdra's popular 1-0-1 dusknoir tech? your field looking like this: Active abomasnow - bench: claydol/dusknoir/cresselia lvlx? bearing in mind their speed especially if they are 2HKO'ing snowman. I suppose it's doable but having to immediatley setup every time something dies.

I dunno, I think against a good Kingdra your gonna have a hard time.

Love the abomasnow idea though.
 
Abomasnow's awesome with TM1 IMO, just play down the snover, use tm1 and you've got yourself a nice shield that evolves your pokemon and blocks kingdra.
And if Kingdra wastes 2 PP on Abomasnow while I still get 2 rounds extra, i'm very happy.
I tested abomasnow a bit, but for me its just a wall and I mostly didnt even attack with it, it was just to buy some time.
 
If Kingdra is teching Gs and Dusknoir you can only assume that it's consistency will take a step back. Not to mention what new threats it has gained since SF was released. Regigigas gives it a hard time as Gino showed us in one of his CC report. Torterra isn't an easy match-uo. I have read that Dusknoir by itself gives Kingdra a hard time even with techs. Now imagine with something that is taking it's speed away. It can't hit the bench for 20 as Snowman prevents that damage. You assume I haven't thought of Warp Point and won't set-up a second Snowman in case they do pull one on me.

I stated that I set up by T3. But I also can set up by T2. I'm just being realistic and not making this out to be BDIF. But it is a Tier 1 when most people thought it was Tier 2. Amu is T1 and it has hard match-ups vs. Gengar and Machamp or anything that can tech Mewtwo. Just like Dusknoir has hard match-ups vs. AMU and Magmortar/Heatran+Typhlosion and anything that can tech 3 Unown Gs. 2 just doesn't do it.
 
^When was pokemon fun? Haymaker, when you didn't get a turn very often? ;/ Anyways, stalling against kingdra usually results in a win for any deck. Thats just how it is. Mr. Mime does a good job. Obama does a nice job and also takes care of kingdra's source of power/consistancy at the same time.
 
Every Tier 1 deck has 1 or 2 hard match-ups vs. another 1 and/or upper Tier 2. So then you have to decide how much your going to tech for match-ups and not lose consistency vs. the rest of the Metagame.

Let me keep analysing Kingdra's match-ups. During BRs only decks that were giving it a hard time were Torterra, Leafeon, and PUMA. Now with SF it gain a clear one in Dusknoir. So 4 match-ups it has to tech for or at least be concerned about. If it techs too much for Dusknoir it could lose ground in the Torterra match-up. If it techs for AMU it can lose badly to Leafeon. You get the point.
 
a friend and i have developed a way to make the "so called dreaded dusknoir" into something that really is dangerous. Dusknoir works only semi-effectively when used as the basis of the deck, considering all the drawbacks with its own powers and such. But when combined with the right main attacker, certain dusknoir in certain times can be the most evil thing any mainstream gengar, dusknoir, or power-centric deck will face.
 
chriscobi634 said:
If Kingdra is teching Gs and Dusknoir you can only assume that it's consistency will take a step back. Not to mention what new threats it has gained since SF was released. Regigigas gives it a hard time as Gino showed us in one of his CC report. Torterra isn't an easy match-uo. I have read that Dusknoir by itself gives Kingdra a hard time even with techs. Now imagine with something that is taking it's speed away. It can't hit the bench for 20 as Snowman prevents that damage. You assume I haven't thought of Warp Point and won't set-up a second Snowman in case they do pull one on me.
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2 unown G max (1 if there wasn't a possibility it would be prized)
1-0-1 DP Dusknoir
does not affect Kingdra's consistency.

As I said, Kingdra could hit the snover for 20 I didn't say abomasnow. I didn't think I would have to fully explain, it's before you evolve your first abomasnow. When kingdra gets that almost guaranteed headstart.

All this is assuming you have set this up in time, T1 energy drop on snover (if it's out, call energy would be the drop wasted). T2 you can unown Q your active for snover, attach another energy and evolve....wait a minute where's your claydol, resources spent on abomasnow early on? surely that would ruin the consistency of a turn 2 claydol.

also setting up multiple abomasnows with the threat of a d/p dusknoir will hinder your own dusknoir set ups.

Good luck with it though, I definately would like to see how you do against a real kingdra player.
 
lol kingdra is so easy to beat. Dusknoir beats it relatively easily, but kingdra has worse matchups. However, duskoir+obama should be a no-brainer here. Sac a duskoir, wreck with obama, or vice-versa. :/ You get the early prize. You still lose the game more often then not.
 
Have you even tried my list? It seems slow, and inconsistent but it's really not. Like I said out of 10 games it got a slow/bad start once and playtesting with it now for 5 days prove it's not a one day thing. I had said it had 2 slow/bad games but it was actually 1 because in the second game vs. AMU I was power locked by Mesprit T2 and T3. But I could of had the T2 Claydol, Snow, and Dusclops.

I won't say much more about the match-up until I playtest it but I see little point in doing so. Since we know thar Dusknoir on it's own has a favorable match vs. Kingdra. But I'll playtest just so I can prove the point. You can try it too, I gave you a list that is 95% identical to the list I used. But don't go by the results of the first few games. DAC is a very hard deck to play with all the math involved in it. It takes time getting use to it.

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1. How would Kingdra hit Snover for 20? It doesn't have resistance or the -20 body? If anything it OHKOs it.

2. Why would I Unown G Snow in this match-up? I don't believe I would need the whole game unless you stupid enough to put Psychic Energies to attack with Dusknoir D/P. If you are "stop while your ahead".

3. I would still stack my bench. The moment I see a Duskull hit the board I will snipe it off with Dusknoir unless your foolish enough to waste a G on that. If you Rare Candy it, I will still snipe it off with Dusknoir, as I did to a Gengar player. If I can't OHKO it will take Snow damage, making my Snow more effective in an already favorable match-up.

4. 2/5 games it is very likely to have a Dusknoir, Snow, Claydol by T3, sometimes more things like a Dusclops or even Cresselia Lv. X.
T2 it can have Snow or Dusknoir with Claydol. Just try then get back to me.

With all the points you've made, especially the G on Snow, just shows the lack of knowledge you have about this game.
 
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Chris's deck is really good from what I saw at the cash tourney and was probably the most creative usage of Dusknoir. The deck doesn't need to be fast and was consistent.
 
chriscobi634 said:
Have you even tried my list? It seems slow, and inconsistent but it's really not. Like I said out of 10 games it got a slow/bad start once and playtesting with it now for 5 days prove it's not a one day thing. I had said it had 2 slow/bad games but it was actually 1 because in the second game vs. AMU I was power locked by Mesprit T2 and T3. But I could of had the T2 Claydol, Snow, and Dusclops.

I won't say much more about the match-up until I playtest it but I see little point in doing so. Since we know thar Dusknoir on it's own has a favorable match vs. Kingdra. But I'll playtest just so I can prove the point. You can try it too, I gave you a list that is 95% identical to the list I used. But don't go by the results of the first few games. DAC is a very hard deck to play with all the math involved in it. It takes time getting use to it.

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1. How would Kingdra hit Snover for 20? It doesn't have resistance or the -20 body? If anything it OHKOs it.

WHen it's on the bench after you call energy it. Simple.

2. Why would I Unown G Snow in this match-up? I don't believe I would need the whole game unless you stupid enough to put Psychic Energies to attack with Dusknoir D/P. If you are "stop while your ahead".

I never once mentioned anything about attaching it to abomasnow, in fact I didn't even mention your unown G. Hmmm

3. I would still stack my bench. The moment I see a Duskull hit the board I will snipe it off with Dusknoir unless your foolish enough to waste a G on that. If you Rare Candy it, I will still snipe it off with Dusknoir, as I did to a Gengar player. If I can't OHKO it will take Snow damage, making my Snow more effective in an already favorable match-up.

This is not a favourable match-up, D/P dusknoir would only be played with a candy when you have 4 bench down, then whatever is the biggest threat will go back to your deck.

4. 2/5 games it is very likely to have a Dusknoir, Snow, Claydol by T3, sometimes more things like a Dusclops or even Cresselia Lv. X.
T2 it can have Snow or Dusknoir with Claydol. Just try then get back to me.

With all the points you've made, especially the G on Snow, just shows the lack of knowledge you have about this game.

What are you talking about? Can you read? I never mentioned anything about unown G on a abomasnow or snover, I said unown Q on your active for the free retreat to bring out snover.
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My answers are in the quote above.

You don't even pay attention to my responses yet you use what you mis-read to try and put me down as a player. Pathetic.

Learn to read. I actually used to have some respect for your posts.
 
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kaworu said:
All this is assuming you have set this up in time, T1 energy drop on snover (if it's out, call energy would be the drop wasted). T2 you can unown Q your active for snover, attach another energy and evolve....wait a minute where's your claydol, resources spent on abomasnow early on? surely that would ruin the consistency of a turn 2 claydol.
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Ok, so you said instead Q of G. Which just makes an even worse play. As Q is for Cresselia, G is not needed in this match-up. Why would I Q anythin besides Cresselia? Everything else doesn't get free retreat. That's why I was confused about it.

Against the Gengar player who had the 1-0-1 Dusknoir I had a full bench, he pushed back my 2nd fully powered Snow and I still managed to get it back a couple turns later. It's really hard for them to pick the correct one. I won't go into scenarios just because it all really depends on the state of game.

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Like I've said at this point and time we are both just speculating about a match neither one of us has much experience in.

Kingdra may get the early prizes I'm not going to argue that but that's what Torttile did. Sometimes it got ahead by 3 prizes but in the end it just couldn't finish off the game. I predict the same in this match up. But like I said we both should just stop arguing because at this state it's pointless.

Thanks for having respect about my posts. Don't lose it just yet. I will apologize for misreading your post about Q. But even to you it didn't make sense that I would waste that many resources just to try and get a T2 Snowman instead of a T2 Claydol. Hence why it make me even more confused about your post. Right now we are argue against each other but who knows further down the road I could be helping you prove a point vs. someone else.:thumb:
 
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chriscobi634 said:
Ok, so you said instead Q of G. Which just makes an even worse play. As Q is for Cresselia, G is not needed in this match-up. Why would I Q anythin besides Cresselia? Everything else doesn't get free retreat. That's why I was confused about it.
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Again, respecting your opinion I didn't feel i had to spell everything out, but alas, it was in relation to your earlier post about using Q for cresselia and what I was pointing out was your best set up to get out an abomasnow without starting with snover and it being ko'd before it evolved. If I say unown Q for free retreat I clearly mean cresselia as the others are not affected.

I'll refrain from posting on these boards in future assuming the people reading them don't need an exact explanation to understand what I'm talking about.

Oh and back on topic speed Tangrowth / sceppy / claydol with PP/majestic dawns does well against Noir, heal every turn nulifies the noir lvl.x and makes for an interesting matchup (albeit will have an issue with abomasnow, although Tangrowth will heal the damage done by abomasnow which just makes him a wall) status condition ko's stop noir lvl.x also.
 
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