Why Changing Format wont change the fact its still a crapshoot

[badganondorf]

There is nothing I enjoy more than deck building in Pokémon - heck I even made top8 at Worlds in the GG year with Glaceon...GG was dominating but it sure was counterable(just look at Empoleon). There are some things that best decks in any format usually do:

1) Hit the bench
2) Lock the powers
3) Lock the trainers
4) Disturb opponent's hand
5) Have the Automatic switching card that prevent locking something as an active Pokémon(Gardevoir LV.X/Warp energy, Poke Turn etc.)

Then just look what the "dominating" decks of the previous format have done.

RS-on
Medicham ex - So, obviously I can lock the powers(but what's important, I couldn't lock ALL the powers). I also have the Admin(which everyone else had too) so I can disturb my opponent's hand. I also had Pow! so I could lock Magcargo as the active Pokemon. I could also hit the bench(but with only 30 damage).

HL-on
LBS - Ok, I can hit the bench with Steelix EX. I'm still vulnerable to Flick Poison against Blastoise EX as long as I don't have Island Cave in my hand. I can disturb my opponent's hand with Rocket's Admin but that's nothing new, Admin was staple in that format.

DX-on
Whoa, this format was so awesome that I couldn't even think of TEH deck in this format. We had Absolutions, Destiny, Banette, Metanite - come on, even Flygon ex(LM) made it to the top4 of Worlds. But while Absolutions won US nats and Worlds let's take a look at that.

Absolutions - I could hit the bench(Spread + Espeon exs 30 damage). I could also lock the powers with Jirachi EX but it was just a tech. I even had Bright Look(Umbreon ex)! But I hit 20 damage with 1 energy instead of 60...

HP-on

GG - This started the whole whining about stale format but come on. GG could only:
- Lock the powers
- Had the automatic switch card(Gardevoir LV.X)
- Hit the bench(easy last prize with Bring down)
- Disturb the opponent's hand(Wager - but it was uncertain)
And GG won worlds.

And then came the SPs. Just look at the Luxchomp.

Hello, I can take prize from the bench every turn. By the way, if you drop Uxie, I can stop your powers, but only if necessary. If I need more time I could just Deafen to lock your trainers and of course the same card that locks the trainer locks the bodies for the whole game while just sitting on the bench. I could also use Judge or Looker's to disturb my opponent's hand. And of course I had the power to Mr. Briney almost every Pokemon of my game without using a supporter...


If someone didn't get my point so far it was:

Top deck has always had some abilites but Luxchomp has all the abilities when needed. Apollo said that Luxchomps are the art of deck building because you could tech anything there. Well sure, it just makes all the other decks unplayable because Luxchomp could have an answer against anything just putting a basic energy card and a Pokemon of the type in the deck. Whoraay, I'm a great deck builder because I invented that I could tech Weavile and Basic dark against Gengar! The same formula could be used against every deck. There is zero skill in that.

Back in the time we had 4 corners because it was cool to hit to the weakness - not every deck could do that. Nowadays we just have a thing called Luxchomp that can hit the every weakness of the metagame with not much trouble.

I think that HGSS-on has a very small cardpool for Worlds but at least I can now put a lot of 1-1-1 and 1-1 lines to my deck without being afraid of Luxchomp killing everything before I even have the chance to play them. HGSS-on is a deck builders paradise compared to the last seasons and I'm pretty sure that no deckbuilder who has been around as long as I have been can deny that.

tl;dr: Just read the whole message.

 

[jeffrey123]

I just don't get why this thread isn't solved yet.... =[

HGSS is honestly so much fun. I just built some terrible deck, and it was actually really fun. I actually got to play my techs without them being killed before they were able to be used. Also, regarding top decks, you can take a good look at Gigas as well. It was able to do all the above, but completely under-rated. I agree with decks NEEDING to be able to hit the bench to win games, because otherwise you can just set everything up much easier. Donphan and Jumpluff weren't unstoppable for this exact reason.

 

[baby mario]

Luxray tech meant that in effect Pluff could hit the bench.

Catcher will give the same ability to practically every deck. That's why that card is the one thing that slightly worries me about the new format. Otherwise I think HGSS-on will be brilliant.

Obviously there will be a handful of decks that are better than everything else (no way you can ever avoid that), but I do think that the gap between the top tier and everything else will not be a big as it has been. In other words, a lot more decks will be at least playable.

 

[billbilski]

Anyone. I mean anyone who thinks that the HGSS-on format isn't a dramatic change in favor of those who actually understand deck building and strategy is sorely mistaken. I remember those days when I could win tourneys with a unique combo or engine that no one else in the field was playing...I'd all but given up as not much could beat the broken and obvious combos not to mention uxie and claydol. I had lost my excitement for the game - this is very welcome news IMHO..Hopefully things don't go awry again. Nats may be the most interesting EVER! Darwinian Theory from Chuck - me likes....

 

[SuperWooper]

Catcher will give the same ability to practically every deck. That's why that card is the one thing that slightly worries me about the new format. Otherwise I think HGSS-on will be brilliant.

Yeah, Catcher makes me nervous too. The last time we had access to a card (Double Gust) that could wreck your opponent's board that easily was when Wizards had the game, and HS-on is going to be a lot faster than Neon was.

At least there's no baby flips (no real ones, anyway) or Focus Band in the game, though.

 

[the_sniper]

nah, pachirisu's attaches 2 energy to itself from your hand when you play it. then they also have the 3rd lightning to manually attach to zekrom... AND the shaymin to move the other energy to zekrom... then they hit for 120 t1... i guess it works if you're amazing at drawing 3 energy+collector in your first hand

I pulled this off 3-4 times in ten games last night- and lost at least 2 of them!

With the new rules and cards testing was a lot of fun, and even though I t-1 120ed Steve several times, NONE ended the game.

That in itself says a lot about how good this rotation will be for Organized Play .

 

[Jaeger]

I pulled this off 3-4 times in ten games last night- and lost at least 2 of them!

With the new rules and cards testing was a lot of fun, and even though I t-1 120ed Steve several times, NONE ended the game.

That in itself says a lot about how good this rotation will be for Organized Play .

I laughed so hard when I saw this on Steves facebook

"LOL Midseason rotation. Half of the people on my facebook are completely EDITED"

I would say it much larger than half, this is going to be a good format

 

[Swordfish1989]

Yeah, the soccer to basketball analogy is inaccurate, not only in the way that Erik mentioned, but because the mere CONCEPT of a TRADING CARD GAME introduces new cards and mechanics to the game usually 4 times a year! The testing you do for Cities IS "worthless" once the next set comes out for States! We DON'T have a "season long format" we have multiple new formats every time new cards get released. You can undersell how much of a difference these " changes" make but to anyone who actually wants to win, they are HUGE. You'll complain about the REMOVAL of cards, but won't acknowledge the change of when cards get ADDED? Same concept, same impact.

Except new cards get added 1 set at a time, here you're taking off SEVEN sets at a time. That has a pretty big impact on everything, much more than one measly set with maybe 4-5 playable cards.

And I disagree with them 'having' to implement the BW rules. There's always a choice, in everything in life so that's a copout for them. And even if they wanted to implement the rules but wanted to avoid the Sableye problem, then just ban Sableye for the remaining few months. That would've been a much less violent change here.

I don't disagree with HGSS-on. I disagree with it happening now.

 

[baby mario]

And I disagree with them 'having' to implement the BW rules. There's always a choice, in everything in life so that's a copout for them. And even if they wanted to implement the rules but wanted to avoid the Sableye problem, then just ban Sableye for the remaining few months. That would've been a much less violent change here.

How can you 'disagree' with them having to implement the rules?

Do you think they are lying? If so, based on what?

Yeah, there's a 'choice' in everything. If your boss says 'do this', you can choose not to if you want. Then you get sacked and your boss gets someone else to do it instead.

 

[Porii Sames]

The EX bird deck I played for a year and a half years I think. I got a lot of respect from the players at that tournament. In your case, people don't respect people who play donk decks.

---------- Post added 04/28/2011 at 12:19 AM ----------



Rogue decks are not hard to play. If you know your list, its pretty easy but hard for your opponent to be. You force them to use all their resources then hit them hard when they run out.

Credit is given to people who net deck but me and some others don't give it. It does not matter what version of Luxchomp you play, it's still Luxchomp. Adding 1 or 2 cards does not mke it rogue. Its Luxchomp with an extra tech. I play rogue. Each of my list can't be related back to a top deck. I play my favorites and make them work or I find what I like and play it. If a pokemon tournament had a rogue player win it, the I'll give major props but hearing Luxchomp won holds no weight.

On the first part, point well taken.

However, if your rogue decks are so easy to play with...what's wrong with me playing a donk deck? I donked my friends, but we all had a good time and there's no hard feelings (one of my friends I played before and got 8 consecutive tails against him, so we agreed it was even). But I don't want to get into this again.

OK, so if Luxchomp is so easy to netdeck and win with, why don't you try to go win a major tourney with a Top Deck? Many will play, one will win.

I play rogue too, I like top decks as well, some more than others tho. Pllay what's fun, and don't care about how you do.

 

[CFOURCOLTSFAN]

HGSS-on is going to be about Deckbuilding and tbh SP still required VERY good deckbuilding b/c most of the time you couldn't netdeck a list and have it fit your style of play, i mean @ our Regionals we had the top 2 both playing a 2-2 GCX line and smeargle both options that a lot of players wiped off the board, i'm just saying they were great players and didn't make their list on what they "should" be but what fit their style. On the rogue note i say this, it is hard to play v. rogue but not so hard to play it b/c you're the only in the room who knows how to play your rogue so......
I played Glacy/Darkrai and i did well but that's b/c only 1 person in the tourney knew how to play against(tbf it was in seniors so it doesn't really coun,t we had 15 people) and i lost to that one person.
I do however think that Reshiram, Zekrom, and DonChamp will dominate Nats though.

 

[Rambo1000]

I pulled this off 3-4 times in ten games last night- and lost at least 2 of them!

With the new rules and cards testing was a lot of fun, and even though I t-1 120ed Steve several times, NONE ended the game.

That in itself says a lot about how good this rotation will be for Organized Play .

that's dirty! i've been able to pull it off a few times too and it rarely ends the game.. nat's is gonna be insaaaaane

 

[vaporeon]

On the first part, point well taken.

However, if your rogue decks are so easy to play with...what's wrong with me playing a donk deck? I donked my friends, but we all had a good time and there's no hard feelings (one of my friends I played before and got 8 consecutive tails against him, so we agreed it was even). But I don't want to get into this again.

OK, so if Luxchomp is so easy to netdeck and win with, why don't you try to go win a major tourney with a Top Deck? Many will play, one will win.

I play rogue too, I like top decks as well, some more than others tho. Pllay what's fun, and don't care about how you do.

Rogue decks are not easy to play. If you know YOUR list, its easy. Its hard to take someone elses rogue list and play it because everyone has a different play style. I like to play decks that hit for little damage early and hit hard when its needed.

The difference between your friend and everyone else is the fact he's your friend. He's not going to care if you donk him because it's a friendly match but when you go into a tournament with a strangers who go to play legit games and get ruined their ranking screwed game 1 because of a random donk deck, its looks bad on you and shows your skill level. I had a friend that went 3-1 at a tournament and did not make the top 4 because he lost game 1. People don't want to lose game 1 and then pack up and go home because of luck decks.

And I can't believe you said that last part. I'm a rogue player. I make my own list and do well with them. I'm not going to wait to see what win. I can care less about what wins. If I want to play Vaporeon and Pidgeot, I will and make it work, if I want to play a deck full of ex Pokemon in a meta full of defense Deoxyx ex, I'll do that and find a way to counter so when I get wins, place high in a tournament or win one, it feels legit to me. Makes me feel like I did something right by playing my own list, a list no one has seen before.

Just seems to me that ONLY care about knowing what their are playing against. Me, I prefer to play games where I have no idea what I'm fighting against. Plus, I like playing decks people say don't win and messing up deck deckers ranking in tournaments. It's what I do.

 

[Porii Sames]

Rogue decks are not easy to play. If you know YOUR list, its easy. Its hard to take someone elses rogue list and play it because everyone has a different play style. I like to play decks that hit for little damage early and hit hard when its needed.
I like the opposite. Oh, and that list was tweaked for just as long as your CHaos Legends list. Is it easier? Probably. But ask David M. if the final game he and I played in top cut required no skill.
The difference between your friend and everyone else is the fact he's your friend. He's not going to care if you donk him because it's a friendly match but when you go into a tournament with a strangers who go to play legit games and get ruined their ranking screwed game 1 because of a random donk deck, its looks bad on you and shows your skill level. I had a friend that went 3-1 at a tournament and did not make the top 4 because he lost game 1. People don't want to lose game 1 and then pack up and go home because of luck decks.
I've donked people I don't even know in tournaments. What do I do? I try to make friends with them. I'm a nice person, people have this weird image of me that I like ruining peoples' days because I play a donk deck.
And I can't believe you said that last part. I'm a rogue player. I make my own list and do well with them. I'm not going to wait to see what win. I can care less about what wins. If I want to play Vaporeon and Pidgeot, I will and make it work, if I want to play a deck full of ex Pokemon in a meta full of defense Deoxyx ex, I'll do that and find a way to counter so when I get wins, place high in a tournament or win one, it feels legit to me. Makes me feel like I did something right by playing my own list, a list no one has seen before.
Same here. 60% of my meta is Vilegar, it's not just tough for you.
Just seems to me that ONLY care about knowing what their are playing against. Me, I prefer to play games where I have no idea what I'm fighting against. Plus, I like playing decks people say don't win and messing up deck deckers ranking in tournaments. It's what I do.OK, so you like screwing up peoples' rating like I do apparently with donk decks. You know what happened when I first showed up to my premier event of this season? I went 1-3, and was considered a joke. I went on to play the people that joked with me in other tournements, won a Cities, and got 11th at States, in a meta full of my autoloss.

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[Happiny13]

-Zekrom
-Emboar Varients
- Serperior
- Steelix
- Jumpluff
-Cincinno
- T-Tar

These decks require no skill. Expect almost all games to be: Player A sets up attacker. Player B sets up attacker. Player A kills Player B's starter. Player B hits Player A's attacker. Then it'll just go back and forth untill someone runs out of resources. There's no skill in that.

I do agree with this part as I don't see a lot of skill in these decks, however as others have said, perhaps it's just because I have not experienced a different format.

 

[Qwachansey]

Steelix and Ttar I can say from experience definitely require skill. Maybe not Cincinno lol.

 

[Jaeger]

I have taken heat for saying this before but I don't really care

The truth is good players want the HGSS on format because it adds skill and decking building back into the game bad players don't because they have nothing to net deck and don't know how to think for themselves.

 

[Son_of_Apollo]

Expect the nationals top cut to be almost completely a)Seasoned players b)lafontes/people with connections

 

[vaporeon]

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There's a difference though. People who play me enjoys the games we have, no matter who won or lost because we got to play a full game. Its not fun when you lose when you did not even get a turn. Donks are suppose to be less then like 1 percent of all total wins.


Sure donks can happen and I'd hate to say it but donks are legit win, but it's like glitching in a video game. Take SSBM, wavedashing and L- canceling was not *EDIT intended* to be part of the game. It's just something the game allowed for, like Pokemon allows for donks, but it should not be your only win condition. All you doing is using the flaws in the games rules to win and no one likes that.

When I ruins a net deckers rating, its because I played a full game and out played them. When you do it, its because they never got the chance to play a game and I think thats wrong.

 

[Porii Sames]

1. Lcanceling is normal
2. Donking is normal

Do you think PCL doesn't know how much donking goes on in this format? I'm sure they do.