Vilegar would be BETTER if it weren't for sp. No dialga and no quick bright looks/dragon rushes/drifblim fb snipes means that once a vileplume hits the field, the trainer lock is going to last the whole game. Gdos would also still be played because it loses to luxchomp. Also, without sp, it would become the fastest known deck, which is obviously a desirable quality.
SP Hate
- Thread starter Porii Sames
- Start date
Vilegar would be BETTER if it weren't for sp. No dialga and no quick bright looks/dragon rushes/drifblim fb snipes means that once a vileplume hits the field, the trainer lock is going to last the whole game. Gdos would also still be played because it loses to luxchomp. Also, without sp, it would become the fastest known deck, which is obviously a desirable quality.
Porii Sames
Active Member
^Dude, seriously.
The points you have made in this thread contradict themselves... like, A LOT.
When SP gets rotated, Dos will in turn get rotated as well, along with Gengar.
Assuming RR on, TombPlume dex will probably thrive. Machamp/Phan, Blastgatr, Kingdra Prime, Arceus, etc. will also be there.
Oh. But there will be NO DGX. So once that trainerlock goes up, don't expect it to come back down.
The points you have made in this thread contradict themselves... like, A LOT.
When SP gets rotated, Dos will in turn get rotated as well, along with Gengar.
Assuming RR on, TombPlume dex will probably thrive. Machamp/Phan, Blastgatr, Kingdra Prime, Arceus, etc. will also be there.
Oh. But there will be NO DGX. So once that trainerlock goes up, don't expect it to come back down.
I've said that without SP, Gyarados would be insane. Without both of those, however, I honestly think that counters to things like Lostgar and Vilegar could be found. Trainer lock kills decks that run... Trainers! So SP and Gyarados are hurt a lot by this, but other decks wouldn't be hurt as bad (with Bebe's as the main Pokemon-grabber, other Supporters/Trainers could easily be shuffled away). At NC States, for instance, a couple of offbeat dark decks were doing pretty well simply because they kept getting matched up against Vilegar; one was a Sharpedo/Weavile deck and the other was something like Weavile/Houndoom. Again, Vilegar hurts Gyarados and SP so much because it makes a third of the cards in those decks worthless.
LostGar could be countered with Fossils if it got too bad. Mewperior could be countered with Lost Remover (to get rid of Rescue Energy) and Judge or something. Just gotta think outside of the box a little. What can't be countered is all the first turn stuff decks like Luxchomp and Gyarados throw at the format - it's just too fast. A first turn 50 and second turn 80 anywhere while locking much-needed Poke-Powers and always having the space to handle bad matchups with single card counters? Or Gyarados, which can do basically the same thing with Mesprit drops and PokeBlower+'s/Pokemon Reversals. Those types of things are just too fast for a healthy format.
vaporeon
Moderator
That would be the best thing for the game. SP and all related thing to sets before RR gets rotated, they ban Vileplume because its not healthy for the game, other decks can shine. I know a Mouse and Squirrle with their trainer's support that would like a 'shot' at the new format.
This would be the BEST thing for the BW format. Go in with no lock, none of that crap. I understand you like decks that are one sided and gives your opponent no fighting chance. You are NEW to the format. Us senior players understand that these decks are not good for the game.
Its not about SP anymore, but about the health of our game. Tomb had the right idea. ONLY and active Pokemon should have an effect like that, not a bench sitter. People don't like these cards. Gdos will not be a problem because other fast decks can fight it. The best thing for the next format is to allow new deck to be made and not start it off bad.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Gothmon still does the same thing Plume does with a decent attack.
Banning cards would just be stupid, plain and simple. No reason to ban something that's not broken.
Banning cards would just be stupid, plain and simple. No reason to ban something that's not broken.
vaporeon
Moderator
Vileplume is broken. Its stops a much needed action of the game. I'm sure Gothmon attack cost what, 2 or 3. That 2 or 3 turns you can play. What about Cyclone Energy, Put it back on the bench and hope they can't switch.
The fact is the game would be a lot better off without Vileplume. Cards have been banned before. Only 2 I think but Vileplume needs to go.
The fact is the game would be a lot better off without Vileplume. Cards have been banned before. Only 2 I think but Vileplume needs to go.
The key words you forgot to mention, though, is that it does the same thing as Plume ONLY WHEN ACTIVE. If it's on the bench (and there'll always be ways to do that, even if it is something as silly as drowzee HS's sleep incuder) then the ability stops working.
I'll agree on the banning cards thing, though. Banning cards--->bad. Releasing "soft counters"--->good.
All my opinions, of course.
Porii Sames
Active Member
There are 2 things I hate in this world. People that try to be politically correct, and when people that toss the word "broken" around like a hot potato. Plume is nowhere near broken, and that's coming from someone whose lost to it in 80% of their tournament losses. Just snipe it, DGX, or make it active a lot.
If you drop Cyclone, they SHOULD have another Gothmon or Tomb on the bench.
Gothmon has to be active like tomb. He said that it should have to be active to do something like that so there isn't very much comparison between vileplume and gothmon. The trainer stopping isn't as bad for the game if the cards that do it have to be active and they are stage 2's. The lock can be broken then and all decks could have a fighting chance.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Yeah, my bad there.Agree with u on the banning cards.
StormFront
New Member
Vapereon, Vileplume is not broken because its body stops both players from playing trainers. Plus its a stage 2 pokémon. Slowking Neo was a lot worse because it has the ability to stop one player from playing trainers while allowing the other player to freely play them, and that was in a time when supporters didn't exist. Its not as bad as Gothitelle in our new set because it must be active for its effect to apply. Trainer lock is likely to be popular in our new format due to the unfourtunate rerelease of GoW which IMO is as bad a reprint as double-colourless was.
vaporeon
Moderator
I'm not talking about this format. I'm talking about the next format where their are no good sniping moves or DGX. It's just a Plume on a rampage with no way to stop it. Also, it has 120 HP which means you lost 2 turns trying to kill it but lets not forget that the big snipers loses 2 to all energy using the attack which put you back 2-3 turns.
Look at this. Armaldo SS HAS to be active so your opponents gets no Supporters. Golduck d prevents your opponent from playing Stadiums while you have a Holon Stadium in play. Houndoom UF says your opponent can't play trainer as long as you have less benched Pokemon. Sure its a bench effect but has a huge draw back. Kabutops MD HAS to be active to prevents your opponents from playing trainers. We already know about Spiritomb AR, Vileplume EX states that is HAS to be your active Pokemon for the effect to take action and Walrein ex has a put into play power that stops trainers.
I did not list any Pokemon that has to attack to stop from playing. You see the pattern here? All the above Pokemon here MUST be active for the effect to take effect, other then Houndoom but you have to be able to keep less Pokemon in play then your opponent which is hard when there was so much return. The POP Pidgeot returns Pokemon back to the deck as a Power. I'm not with SP. This format can't be saved but I do not want to go into the next format with a card that can't be stopped.
Vileplume does not slow the host player down. All other card the prevent from playing come with a cost. Its ether an attack or has a requirement to be active. meaning you lost a turn to put a lock on someone. Vileplume does not make you lose a turn while you're still attacking, setting up or what ever. Vileplume needs to be banned because it is broken.
---------- Post added 03/28/2011 at 10:43 PM ----------
The thing is Slowking WAS banned for being too powerful.
Look at this. Armaldo SS HAS to be active so your opponents gets no Supporters. Golduck d prevents your opponent from playing Stadiums while you have a Holon Stadium in play. Houndoom UF says your opponent can't play trainer as long as you have less benched Pokemon. Sure its a bench effect but has a huge draw back. Kabutops MD HAS to be active to prevents your opponents from playing trainers. We already know about Spiritomb AR, Vileplume EX states that is HAS to be your active Pokemon for the effect to take action and Walrein ex has a put into play power that stops trainers.
I did not list any Pokemon that has to attack to stop from playing. You see the pattern here? All the above Pokemon here MUST be active for the effect to take effect, other then Houndoom but you have to be able to keep less Pokemon in play then your opponent which is hard when there was so much return. The POP Pidgeot returns Pokemon back to the deck as a Power. I'm not with SP. This format can't be saved but I do not want to go into the next format with a card that can't be stopped.
Vileplume does not slow the host player down. All other card the prevent from playing come with a cost. Its ether an attack or has a requirement to be active. meaning you lost a turn to put a lock on someone. Vileplume does not make you lose a turn while you're still attacking, setting up or what ever. Vileplume needs to be banned because it is broken.
---------- Post added 03/28/2011 at 10:43 PM ----------
The thing is Slowking WAS banned for being too powerful.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Plus, there are PLENTY of ways to counter it...
vaporeon
Moderator
Thats the Slowking I'm talking about.
Pidgeotto Trainer
New Member
Nobody likes it when the same deck dominates for too long. It gets boring. Weaker players figure it out. Everyone starts to play nearly the same list. When new good decks come out, the games are new, the decks are new, good players can figure out the new format first and not everyone has netdecked the same (55ish card) list. Luxchomp being the best deck for more than a year has been one of the worst cases of this happening.
I agree that SP in itself is a very interesting deck to play, with a good deal of strategy. But my above paragraph has been true in every era.
It's true that decks can beat Luxchomp, but Luxchomp is still the most consistent deck. You can bring your counterdeck into a room full of Luxchomp and I don't think your chances are that much better of winning. If anything 80/20 beat Luxchomp, everyone would be playing it by now.
I agree that SP in itself is a very interesting deck to play, with a good deal of strategy. But my above paragraph has been true in every era.
It's true that decks can beat Luxchomp, but Luxchomp is still the most consistent deck. You can bring your counterdeck into a room full of Luxchomp and I don't think your chances are that much better of winning. If anything 80/20 beat Luxchomp, everyone would be playing it by now.
vaporeon
Moderator
There is almost no Trainer ways to Stop that Slowking, plus the power stacks.
Porii Sames
Active Member
Counter plume, not Slowking. I can't think of a counter there was to Slowking back then...
First of all, the old, OLD Vileplume from like Jungle or Fossil stopped all Trainers. Not just Trainers, but today it also shuts off Supporters and Stadiums - just by being in play.
Second, assuming RR-On, Blaziken FB wrecks Vileplume's day hard... and Luxray will continue to be a viable tech as long as Vileplume sees play.
Second, assuming RR-On, Blaziken FB wrecks Vileplume's day hard... and Luxray will continue to be a viable tech as long as Vileplume sees play.