Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Disclosing Deck Lists?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ryan you are over stating yor case. Which makes it easy to point out the flaws. It actually weakens your position. *shrug*

More competitition and more competative events have a negative impact too. I doubt that POP will ignore this as it strikes directly at their target market.

Most SDs are in fact shared. Just not with the whole community. Play test groups automatically mean that SDs are shared.

When a SD is exposed to the whole community its the middle group of players not the noobs or pros that benefit most. You have ignored the majority of people on the pokegym.

Even dud SDs can be shared: They may be of little vaule to the pros but that does not mean they are without merit and should be buried. What is a dud in one metagame could function well in a different metagame.
 
The more competition point is an interesting one. More competition spurs the best players to become even better, lest they lose their position. More competition also means new players are put off (as is becoming more apparent).

There needs to be a balance in OP (dare I say it, but Prereleases are designed to be the entry point for newer players?). I would be disappointed if Worlds didn't show the very best in competitive play.

As for whether SD's would help a player in transition from a newbie to tournament-strength player, I have no idea. I'll leave that one to you guys...
 
Too many opinions, where to start...

First, I appreciate people who spend time writing articles and TRY to help others. They know what SoTG is like and that's wonderful. Writing a good article takes many days/hours and they who spend their time writing those are the true help for new players and not so "pro" players.

I think that if you keep a SD as a SD when you haven't used it at tournament, then it's understandable but when you have played SD in tournament and almost everyone in a tournament have seen it, there is no reason to keep it out of public.

Helping new players to start is the most important thing if you want to keep this game alive. When you tell them in the first place all your "secrets" they will be interested in this game more than they would ever if you don't tell them anything.

And when someone says that it's no use releasing tournament winning deck lists anywhere because it won't help anyone, he/ she is soo wrong. People who say that that's the way it is haven't tried it. Those who have tried can say that it DOES help new players to improve faster and "semi" players to catch the top players faster.

In fact new players are those who post their ideas and strategies to the deck help and strategy section. And what's the most usual answer:

-60 cards
+ New deck

Yeah right, no one gives a chance to new players because their ideas just don’t seem to work. How many times someone who has bashed other member about a new deck has in real life build the deck, very few. And that's why some of the deck that could really win a tournament because it has the surprise factor doesn't even see any play in any tournament. And that's just why you should respect ALL ideas that any player posts here seriously. Fun decks are different (T1 spoink etc). But when people really have put effort in making up a new deck and posting it here, bashing the deck isn't an option.

And is posting dun decks and deck lists wrong? They maybe bad but every single piece of idea is very important to this community. You might be surprised how “newbies” have ideas that you haven’t even though of. Their decks and ideas may not be as brilliant as pro players, but they might give an idea to other deck and make you see any card from another perspective. This is why deck lists are the best you can offer to the community.

But the idea of this game, it’s different to every people. Some people main focus is on winning other’s in having fun. Some players may enjoy the game because they are good at it and like winning and in the same time like playing the game. You can’t judge people if they do have fun or if they just want to win. No one is similar to other so isn’t it obvious that everyone has their own goals in the game.

I’ve written many articles into my own country’s forum just because I want to help my country’s players to improve to new stage faster. I know that it takes a lot of time and effort to write an article but it’s very rewarding too. I also understand that someone just doesn’t want to write an article about every single deck he/she has invented. But I think they should remember that people always want all info they can get from a new SD and it’s wrong to judge people rude or stupid just because they’re curious. It’s just the way we are.

If someone has invented a SD and they won the tournament with it, is there some reason to keep it out of the reach of whole community? If you think that there is, then just not keep too much noise about the people who want your list. If someone posts a topic where they want to know what the new SD included, don’t go to that topic to say “make your own deck, I won’t tell you anything, 100 people know what the deck has inside of it but I won’t ever tell you that”. Where is the point in that? Nowhere.

The competition is good or bad to the game. That depends how you look it and what kind of player are you. If you just want to have fun in this game, the competition is bad in your perspective. If you want to win everything and want to be THE BEST, growing competition is good for you. You can’t say what is the best thing to game because competition doesn’t bring always more players to this game. But the fun doesn’t either. Everyone have their own goals in this game so does the new players so I think everybody should respect each other’s goals in the game and not to say that they are playing the game for “wrong” reason. There is no “wrong” reason to play this game, there are just RIGHT reasons to play this game, so let’s give to everyone an equal chance, shall we?
 
Last edited:
Excellent post by Prime.

I especially agree with the point that it is getting harder and harder for new players to enter this game at a competitive level. That's part of the reason I started with my project specifically made for new/returning players.



I don't think you will ever get people to reveal their decklists before tournaments, and that is fine.

But, if decklists were posted after each and every tournament, I don't think anyone would have a real problem with that. (As long as it was EVERY major tournament, so everyone was on equal footing.)



I also think many people would be willing to write for the POP site for some minor payment (a few packs?). And I'm sure some people would be willing to write just for the sheer joy of sharing the game (I am one of those people, but since the POP site has nothing of the sort, I write for the next best website; the one you're on right now).

Something interesting I saw after reading the article on the last magic grand prix. Apparently during the final round, both players showed each other their decklists to kill off the information advantage. I guess it's required in the elimination rounds, but it wouldn't be a bad addition and would stem the revelance of an SD, because now if you're skilled enough, you can figure out a way to play around it.
 
Right off the bat. I'll apologize to Ryan. Sorry, man, I got caught up in the moment and brought up some "hidden" information. Not professional, I know.

What have I contributed to the community? I haven't posted a deck idea in more than a year and I haven't wrote an article since last nationals. In the most obvious signs of contribution, I cannot be found. I'm not going to defend myself. I'm not going to make it sound like I am some superior person or patriarch to this game (no pun intended). I'm going to call it like it is.

What I will say is that I give back to the game in my own ways. I post tips in people's threads when they are talking about decks. I just recently judged for the first time at a pre-release, and it was some of the most fun I've ever had. I try to keep the single card discussion forum working and clean of spam on a daily basis. For the past 2 sets (not counting DP), I've written 4 card articles for the official website. I'm always there to give my opinion on something, and to call it how I see it. I've even come up with some good ideas in the past that could better this forum and the game. To say that I contribute nothing to this game would be false. I don't write articles and I don't post deck ideas, but those are just 2 ways to give back to the game. And those other ways deserve just as much recognition as posting deck ideas and articles.

Forget about SD's. Forget about deck lists. All I'd like to see is for the best players in the game to help out the whole. To help give people advice when they post deck ideas. To be there for players when they contact them for help. They don't have to write articles or post deck ideas. It'd be nice if they did though, but they don't. It'd be nice if they gave back in some way.

Jimmy, Ryan, Martin, Chuck, and a few other people have at least given back in some way in the past. Why can't more of the more skilled players give back like they did. Just having their presence in conversations really help out a lot. They can turn a thread leading down the wrong way into a thread headed in the right direction by just a simple person correcting the crowd and explaining why a certain action just won't fly in the competitive scene.

Is it too much to ask to give back? We all started out as nothings in this game. Someone helped us and gave to us to make us better. But the new players of today don't have those mentors like we did. All the best players are locked up within their own forums and rarely even post on this forum. Most don't give advice or help any of deck threads, and usually only show up to belittle someone.

People say, "well, that person can just contact a elite player and they most likely will help them." But what if they don't know who the elite players are? Should they have to contact the player? In all reality, a new player will lose focus and might quit if they aren't guided on the right direction from the start. That is why a lot of people join because they have a friend in the game. They have someone to ask questions and get help from, from the very beginning. But for those who don't have friends, who do they ask for help from? The best players in the game are no where to be seen.

I'll state it again. The "elite" players have the most to give back to the game. They are the ones that think about the game all the time, that put their heads together and come up with the ideas that break the game. They could help endless amounts of people if they gave back in some way. They don't have to give their lists away, or tell the community about secret decks before they show up; but give back in some way. Whether it's posting some encouragement to sad ideas, or getting a discussion back on the right track. They could turn this game upside over night if they all worked together to do it.

Does that mean that only they should give back? No. But I think you'd find that they can give back in much more potent ways than most anyone else. We can try to give back, but it might not help many people. Look at the difference between the person who made a SD posting an article about it and a person who just picked up the deck after it's unveiling and posting an article about it. The person who actually helped make the SD knows so much more about it and can give advice to people so much better on the topic. They can educate others about the idea so much better, and the community gains a lot more from it.

I'm not going to point fingers. That isn't fair either. But I would like to see some of the better players give back to the game more often. Does it have to be anything big? Nah.
 
Quick response.....

Prime,

I do not have a lot of time to elaborate... but here is the quick version....

I have been in the game for 8 years now... I have contributed more than you will ever know...

Your problem is that you are judging the Elites contributions to the game thru what you see here on the gym....

Everything you claim you have done to help has been done by countless ELITE players 10 fold. Just because we dont make everything available on the gym, doesnt mean its not happening.

More to come....

Jimmy
 
I love how people assume that just because someone is Elite and doesn't post their decklists on the gym, that they are automatically not helping anyone or not contributing anything. There's some great players that aren't even ON the gym. I like to take things to AIM, or something else. Many people can vouch for this.

Prime - no offense, but you haven't been in the spotlight. You do not know how it is to even have a SD, unlike the ones here defending them. There's a big difference. On the other hand, I and I'm sure Ryan and others, have been on both sides of SDs. If you don't recognize the distinct advantage one gains from not revealing their decklist before a big tournament, then you're foolish. Yeah, you play the game for fun, but you play it to win, too. If we were just playing for fun, why are there higher prizes ($$+Trips, etc.) for higher placings?
 
Just because we dont make everything available on the gym, doesnt mean its not happening.

There are many great players like Jimmy who do "stuff" behind the scenes.

Jimmy
Chuck
Johnny Blaze
Papi/Mani
Magnechu
G-Dog (but not any more)

to name a few, have helped further the game with my son.

My son is fortunate. He "sees" the game and can have healthy, competetive fun.

These people have have helped. To you I say thank you.

Do not judge a book by its cover.
 
We had Chuck come down to a City here (and win) and I think he was a bit surprised by his celebrity, but what I was impressed by is his willingness to talk Pokemon with the players, and even to e-mail lists back and forth to some of my players, and talk to them via AIM and phone to get them better.

Not necessarily only the top tier of players either...sure he helped some GREAT ones, but he also helped the people who were just looking for advice.

I could toss similar stories about Jimmy (come on Bubba!), Ness, and several others.

Thanks

Vince
 
Great stuff. It's good to hear that these people give back to the game. Props to them. But they only make up a small percentage of the people they hang out with and are in their teams. If these few people can do some good stuff, think about what more of them could do?
 
What have I contributed to the community? I haven't posted a deck idea in more than a year and I haven't wrote an article since last nationals. In the most obvious signs of contribution, I cannot be found. I'm not going to defend myself. I'm not going to make it sound like I am some superior person or patriarch to this game (no pun intended). I'm going to call it like it is.

What I will say is that I give back to the game in my own ways.


Yes you indeed give back in your own way, by trying to keep people see perspective.
and that's a great contribution even more than you probably realize.

Giving back "to the game" can be done in so many ways, it doesn't have to be here on the pokegym.
 
I thought my one short comment would keep me content, but wow...this is kinda lame, lol.

Not a single person is obligated to the community, so it's funny people complain when someone doesn't actually help with decks, on Pokegym or not. It's each person's own choice to help people grow, and the more experienced players become, the greater threats they end up as! It's unfair for someone to expect the good players (or bad) to help others improve in a competitive realm, so...be grateful when people ARE willing to lend a helping hand, and at the same time, respect a player's choice to not get involved in the community.
 
I thought my one short comment would keep me content, but wow...this is kinda lame, lol.

Not a single person is obligated to the community, so it's funny people complain when someone doesn't actually help with decks, on Pokegym or not. It's each person's own choice to help people grow, and the more experienced players become, the greater threats they end up as! It's unfair for someone to expect the good players (or bad) to help others improve in a competitive realm, so...be grateful when people ARE willing to lend a helping hand, and at the same time, respect a player's choice to not get involved in the community.

Under the 2006-2007 POP Tournament Rules, Section 1 (SOTG) states:

"Learning: Players should strive to help each other increase their Pokemon TCG play skills. It is not a player's responsibility to make his or her opponent's plays for that opponent. However, discussing strategies, offering deck tips, or constructively critiquing game play decisions after the match has been completed helps both participants to become better players."

I understand your point in that players have the freedom to make their own decisions when it comes to helping others out. However, the learning aspect in this game is vital for everyone involved, to the point that it's defined even in the tournament rules.
 
Yeah i hope this doesn't sound anti Pokegym.

but in all honesty, I feel that this game would be just as healthy as it is with or without the gym.

I personally would rather help players on a personal basis. ie actually in person. at leagues/tournaments n such, much rather than contributing to the "pokegym community"

i'm sure some of the other players feel this way as well.

i mean think of it this way.

if you see a player w/ a really good deck idea, and you help them focus it, make it more playable. the idea doesn't travel far. where as if you post it on gym. well any tom dick and susie can read it.

i for one, while i don't care wether i win or lose , i don't feel it's wise to contribute to this community. with so many good players. like it's been said before. sometimes the list advantage is all you've got.

anyway, i don't know anyone who's Dead set on a nationals deck yet. i'm sure you'll find people to be more helpful and contributing after they've totally not gotten any chance at an invite. like me for example. i just want to do atleast as well as last year.
 
Ahhh, but the key word there is "should." That one word alone takes power away from any SotG debate. Why? Because it isn't the word "must."

Should is used for guidelines, and must is used for commandments. I also get what you're saying, but SotG doesn't mean anything when you get right down to it. What does have value are the attitudes of individual players: something that "SotG guidelines" will rarely affect. We never needed SotG to know that Pokemon players are some of the most friendly and helpful TCG players on the planet. BDS and crew made this really clear back at Worlds 04, and it still holds true.

The fact that people demand more out of the good Pokemon players is baffling to me: our Pikachus and Chimchars aren't like the cutthroat Demonic Tutors of magic. :p
 
Yeah but, there's still players who talk and help during tournaments and stuff like that. I see it all the time and I know I do it.

Maybe because it's not visible on the Gym, people aren't catching it.
 
OK, I'm just gonna put out some common sense, cuz this topic is severely lacking in it and abundant in biased and personal arguments. I just thought I'd put out some neutral thoughts on this. None of the things in here are directed at anyone in particular.

If you are making a SD and planning to take it to a tourney, why on Earth would you make a topic about it on the biggest OP community out there? It's like being dressed in black against a black wall in the dark with a knife in your hand and a neon sign flashing (SD HERE, COME SPECULATE). Don't make a topic about something that's supposed to be a secret. Hence the acronym.

Oh, and if you're drawing attention to it, then you're just stupid. It counters the entire point of a SD. Just thought I'd squash that thought into a single sentence for the people who might make this kind of mistake. >_>

If you don't post any of your decks, no one really cares because there are no topics about it. If you are this person, you are the essence of irrelevancy. No one cares about you.

If you contribute to peoples' decks, awesome. The community likes people like you who help your average everyday players. People who actually do this regularly deserve a medal or something.

Now, if you actually post your own ideas and explain them or write an article on an already known deck, then you're just plain fantasmic. These are the people who other posters look up to and go to for advice. Bashing these guys doesn't get anyone anywhere and sets back the community.

Now, there's a factor of selfishness added in to all of these. People who utilize the positive things in here like SD's simply for social benefits simply don't deserve the praise they receive from some. Of course, that's their praise to give. I'm just saying, that kind of behavior is unhealthy for everyone in a community as it only satisfies the ego. It also sets a bad example for the younger ones on the gym.

There's also ambition. Now, I'm fine with ambitious people; they've got their priorities and I've got mine. They want to win and I want to have fun. Quite a lot of the time I manage to achieve both, but my main goal is to enjoy the game. There's nothing particularly wrong with someone who has a SD and wants to win, say, US Nats with it. If they get a kick out of it, they can do whatever they want. Ambition in this context doesn't hurt anyone.

Now combine the two traits above and you get a rather unpleasant mix...I won't go into how that would work as I'm sure you can work that out for yourselves.

Just my humble opinion.

~Zephyr
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top