$8 "entrance fee" for all upcoming BR's

[calisupra2nr]

godwin's law? seriously?

'mom

I think he was referring to the totalitarian ideology and not the actual technicality you called him out on. Not everyone can understand exactly what a totalitarian ideology can imply, so generally a Nazi is used in its place. Not saying I think it was appropriate or not, but just some clarification since you decided to spend the time researching the laws at hand.

I'm sorry but I take offense to the inference that this thread is discussing sleeve-nazis. I give a lot to this game including acting as a judge and performing deck checks. When I do, I abide by the rules that I have agreed to follow. I have given away many, many, many of my own sleeves both singles and full packs to players who did not have a deck that passed deck check. That is money out of my pocket but I do it out of SotG because I want everyone to have fun and enjoy the game as much as I and my family do. I judged and deck checked at this event so I am sure that I had a say in this case. If the panel of judges agreed that there were some sleeves beyond the normal wear-n-tear then everyone should accept that and move on. There was no favoritism or power-wielding. Heck, I even had the PTO's wife replace an obviously new or newish Professor sleeve because it was scratched. We are friends and she knew I was just doing my job and I know that she didn't mark a card intentionally but at some point it was scratched by a nail or deck box or something and stood out.

As for sleeves that have wear-n-tear of scratches or potmarks but are not torn, use them at league or give them to kiddos at league. Just don't use them at tournaments.

We all know that you do your job very well Heather, and I do not think anyone is blaming you. I saw you offer an entire pack of sleeves for someone to resleeve with. I think the overall problem is much deeper and more complicated that can be laid out in black and white. For me and what I have witnessed and heard from random polling is that card games such as Pokemon can be too intense for some people to want to spend their time on. The issue then, is that some consumers will not buy Pokemon cards because they have no venue to play. They do not have a younger brother or a group of friends that play them, so if they were ever to play, it would have to be by attending a tournament. Battle Roads is the lowest (other than league) form of competitive play and it can be far too problematic.

Oh no, someone disagreed with the Good Samaritan and are now being called names!! Whatever shall we do?:lol:

Will make sure Mike L hears he is a sleeve-&^%$:tongue: (Don't like the word)

Yes Pokemon is just a game.. so is Soccer, Baseball, Football, Hockey, Chess.. need I continue?? All of these have Rules and are adhered to by the players and enforced by Officials. They even have dressed codes that if not followed, players can be fined. Pokemon is no different in the fact it is a game that people play because they WANT to! Even though it is only a BR, the Point won and lost are important and thus needs to be Judged as such. 8 Points can mean the difference between an Invite and a trip....

I am actually glad Steve mentioned that "Judges" need to be more lax.... this is exactly what TPCi doesn't want and why they have instituted a more outlined Rules Publication. The lax attitude of Judges in the past have caused a disruption and "ill-will" feeling towards Judges when penalties are called and things of this nature occur.

Fish

All of the above you mentioned you can make a living off of. They all have extraordinary followings compared to Pokemon. I understand you see the competitive side of Pokemon and what those rulings are calling for, but you do not understand the consumer side. You do not understand that it is far more important to have more casual players than competitive. This is The Pokemon COMPANY Int. and as such they are about bottom line profit. Sure Pokemon is growing and one could argue attendance figures for premier events, but that does not relate directly to sales. I will try and get my hands on some more hard numbers later.

For now I must study.

 

[baby mario]

I dunno, it doesn't seem right to me that people can say 'oh, I'm just a casual player, so those rules about non-marked sleeves shouldn't apply to me'.

The argument that, by slacking off on the rules they would sell more product also seems a bit . . . well, weak, and I doubt there is any hard evidence to prove it. Is anyone seriously not buying Pokemon cards because they make you play with unmarked sleeves in tourneys?

I play football (soccer if you are American) for a team. I'm never going to make any money from it, I do it for fun. At the same time, I understand that if I want the fun, I have to come with the proper equipment in good condition. I don't think my manager would be very happy if I turned up for a match in scruffy trainers instead of football boots and said 'no need to be a nazi about it, I'm only a casual football player'.

 

[SteveP]

One of my favorite Seinfeld side-characters is the Soup-nazi. My use of the term is to demonstrate how some people can go to extremes about what's acceptable and not. Same goes for the use of the term "slob" -- to show the opposite end of the spectrum.

And, I pointed-the-finger at no one when I used the term. Like calisupra2nr said, I used it to make a point, though it may be a bit cynical. Plus, I prefixed my comment that most judges/players are reasonable.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I am actually glad Steve mentioned that "Judges" need to be more lax.... this is exactly what TPCi doesn't want and why they have instituted a more outlined Rules Publication. The lax attitude of Judges in the past have caused a disruption and "ill-will" feeling towards Judges when penalties are called and things of this nature occur.

Fish

I'm am not calling for judges to be lax. I'm pointing out that judges need to interpret the rules correctly. As I pointed out in my first post, ware-n-tare, by itself, does NOT fit the "official" definition of marked cards.

Plus, the remedy to replace one damaged sleeve with a new sleeve might actually make the replaced sleeve "stand out" exacty as it did before.

Funny thing is, I personally re-sleeve with new sleeves for every major tournament -- even if they're the penny-sleeves. I recommend others do it too. However, until that becomes a requirement, ware-n-tare must be dealt with in a reasonable manner, within the "official" definition of marked cards.

 

[MrMeches]

I think he was referring to the totalitarian ideology and not the actual technicality you called him out on. Not everyone can understand exactly what a totalitarian ideology can imply, so generally a Nazi is used in its place. Not saying I think it was appropriate or not, but just some clarification since you decided to spend the time researching the laws at hand.

We all know that you do your job very well Heather, and I do not think anyone is blaming you. I saw you offer an entire pack of sleeves for someone to resleeve with. I think the overall problem is much deeper and more complicated that can be laid out in black and white. For me and what I have witnessed and heard from random polling is that card games such as Pokemon can be too intense for some people to want to spend their time on. The issue then, is that some consumers will not buy Pokemon cards because they have no venue to play. They do not have a younger brother or a group of friends that play them, so if they were ever to play, it would have to be by attending a tournament. Battle Roads is the lowest (other than league) form of competitive play and it can be far too problematic.


All of the above you mentioned you can make a living off of. They all have extraordinary followings compared to Pokemon. I understand you see the competitive side of Pokemon and what those rulings are calling for, but you do not understand the consumer side. You do not understand that it is far more important to have more casual players than competitive. This is The Pokemon COMPANY Int. and as such they are about bottom line profit. Sure Pokemon is growing and one could argue attendance figures for premier events, but that does not relate directly to sales. I will try and get my hands on some more hard numbers later.

For now I must study.

Hmph.. I guess the over 1.X million in scholarships, Prize Support and Trips come from Monopoly Money! Who knew!

Fish

 

[Pokemon Trainer Mikko]

Can I throw out a weird suggestion that I don't think has ever been brought up before (as far as I know)? How about Battle Roads having Pokemon Organized Play approved sleeves for purchase or for free? Whether they be exclusive ones designed for Battle Roads, or just left over sleeves from pre-releases. That way, the sleeves are in a controlled environment before they are put in the hands of the player. Thus, there is no room for misjudgment on the marked card situation? If sleeves were provided for every player and thus made a requirement, I can imagine it might help the situation.

 

[SD PokeMom]

sleeves can still be marked/damaged in the act of sleeving the deck. using 'official' free new sleeves would not solve the problem, and would likely add to the problem of mixing up decks at the tables if everyone was using the same sleeves....

'mom

 

[SteveP]

Obviously, when you step out of the realm of casual, league play into the realm of tournament play, there's a transition that should occur. For some, that transition may be harsh.

More and more, I find myself gravitating towards the lighter-side, maybe because I'm just getting old and tired, and/or maybe because I'm not always a full-compliance kind of guy -- probably a bit of both.

I still love the core game, and I think TPCi is head-n-shoulders above their competition in regards to OP.

If I've offended some in my use of certain terms, I apologize. That was never my intent. If some still take offense when none was ever intended, what can I do?

 

[Ghetto Overlord]

@ the marked cards thing:
at a battle roads this year during deck checks i had to get a new card because apperently the has a dot on the back of one of the cards that you could see threw the sleeves (which i could see) so i was like what ever and got a new night matinice got back in line and the judge said that there was a mark on the sleeve that held the night matince (which i couldnt see) so i got a brand new sleeve and got back in line, then the judge said that the new sleeve also had a dot on it (which i still couldnt see) so i got a second new sleeve and got back in line, then the judge said that the second new sleeve also had a dot on it (which i still couldnt see and neither could any of my friends) so i got a third new sleeve and got back in line. It took a brand new card and three different sleeves before it was finally excepted. i was like 1) wow this isnt worlds its a battle raods and 2) there wasnt any dots on the sleeves to begin with

 

[SteveP]

sleeves can still be marked/damaged in the act of sleeving the deck. using 'official' free new sleeves would not solve the problem, and would likely add to the problem of mixing up decks at the tables if everyone was using the same sleeves....

'mom

...Agreed... Even in pro-sports, when they open up new balls, they go through an inspection process.

...and not... Let's not "muddy the waters" with non-related problems about 2 players using the same sleeves; otherwise, we might end up like pro-sport teams -- we'd have to put on different uniforms (sleeves) for each game. :tongue:

 

[facism101]

I dunno, it doesn't seem right to me that people can say 'oh, I'm just a casual player, so those rules about non-marked sleeves shouldn't apply to me'.

The argument that, by slacking off on the rules they would sell more product also seems a bit . . . well, weak, and I doubt there is any hard evidence to prove it. Is anyone seriously not buying Pokemon cards because they make you play with unmarked sleeves in tourneys?

I play football (soccer if you are American) for a team. I'm never going to make any money from it, I do it for fun. At the same time, I understand that if I want the fun, I have to come with the proper equipment in good condition. I don't think my manager would be very happy if I turned up for a match in scruffy trainers instead of football boots and said 'no need to be a nazi about it, I'm only a casual football player'.

at no point in this thread did anyone say "im a casual player, the rules shouldnt aplly to me" perhaps fully reading this thread before posting would be beneficial....

i also feel as though making a comparison between pokemon and organized sports in a comparison that cannot be made. In all organized sports, some if not all equipment is provided. Do football player come to the game with their own helmets hoping to pass inspection? do they bring their own shoulder pads? no. all this equipment is provided by the league to the owners of the teams. it is all inspected prior to the events, and then evenly distributed to the players. Therefore, it is black and white, and regulated, where as the sleeve rulings are very gray. that is the problem i have.

 

[baby mario]

i also feel as though making a comparison between pokemon and organized sports in a comparison that cannot be made. In all organized sports, some if not all equipment is provided. Do football player come to the game with their own helmets hoping to pass inspection? do they bring their own shoulder pads? no. all this equipment is provided by the league to the owners of the teams. it is all inspected prior to the events, and then evenly distributed to the players. Therefore, it is black and white, and regulated, where as the sleeve rulings are very gray. that is the problem i have.

Wasn't me who brought up the sport comparison, but the point still stands. Who provides the equipment doesn't matter. It has to be the correct equipment according to the rules. In Pokemon, it is up to the player to provide the right equipment and make sure it is all legal.

The whole point about the sleeve rules is NOT to have a grey area, isn't it? I thought the rule was pretty clear.

Players are responsible for ensuring that their cards and/or card sleeves are not marked in any way. A card is considered marked if it bears something that makes it possible to identify the card without seeing its face, including scratches, tears, discoloration, bends, and so forth. Players must ensure that their sleeves remain legal throughout the course of the event, not just during initial deck checks.

You only get confusion and grey areas when people move away from that.

 

[yoyofsho16]

50 cards per pack isn't messed up... What's messed up is when Ultra Pro prints POKEMON SLEEVES that come in 50.

...what?

 

[homeofmew]

misleading title.

You can't go playing the same sleeves for many tournaments it just the way it is.
I have to admit though they have been a lot stricter on it than in the past. At least that is the feeling I get from many posts like this.

 

[calisupra2nr]

This is just ridiculous to compare this to organized professional sports or anything of that caliber. As for the money expended via OP, while it may approach the $1mln + mark, it certainly does not compare to the billions that are in professional industries. Pokemon is for all to play and the rules should apply accordingly. No one is calling for the rules to bended for any kind of player, but amending something so that it is not stagnant (like any business model should) is something to think about.

 

[SteveP]

Players are responsible for ensuring that their cards and/or card sleeves are not marked in any way. A card is considered marked if it bears something that makes it possible to identify the card without seeing its face, including scratches, tears, discoloration, bends, and so forth. Players must ensure that their sleeves remain legal throughout the course of the event, not just during initial deck checks.

The whole point about the sleeve rules is NOT to have a grey area, isn't it? I thought the rule was pretty clear.

You only get confusion and grey areas when people move away from that.

The part of the quote above that I bolded needs to be read 1) in it's entirety, 2) in context with the rule, and 3) with common sense. Marked cards might be identified by "scratches, tears, discoloration, bends, and so forth." However, the converse is not a valid statement -- that is, worn cards don't mean marked cards (in the context of the guidelines).

 

[baby mario]

I wasn't comparing it to organised professional sports, I was comparing it to organised sports that people do for fun and no reward whatsoever besides enjoyment. How is that a bad comparison to Pokemon?

If you don't have the right equipment to play the game according to the rules, you need to get some or you don't play.

If they made the rules more flexible, it would be a nightmare. The only way to stop people from marking their cards to cheat is to say no marking/damage is allowed. It's hard enough for judges as it is, take away that crystal clear ruling and you just introduce confusion, matters of opinion, accusations of bias etc etc.

The way I see it is this: I don't like playing in tourneys against people who are using marked/damaged sleeves. No, I don't think they are all cheating, but then I don't know that. I can't be expected to assess every player's personal integrity and I shouldn't have to. I prefer to have a rule which means people play with unmarked sleeves, no questions asked.

 

[SteveP]

This is just ridiculous to compare this to organized professional sports or anything of that caliber. As for the money expended via OP, while it may approach the $1mln + mark, it certainly does not compare to the billions that are in professional industries. Pokemon is for all to play and the rules should apply accordingly. No one is calling for the rules to bended for any kind of player, but amending something so that it is not stagnant (like any business model should) is something to think about.

It might not be comparable in the sense of money-spent, but it is comparable in the sense of equipment-quality expectations.

I think you and I are on the same side of this argument; however, I still think tournament organizers CAN impose reasonable expectations upon the players, expectations backed by the tournament rules. I only take issue when those expectations become unreasonable due to a mis-interpretation of the rules.

One final word about deviating from the guidelines for less-experienced players. Certainly, the guidelines are clear about deviating for younger players (see quote below). While less clear, the guidelines do tend to "hint" that a similiar approach should be taken for less-experienced players. Not all casual players fit the definition of less-experienced players, yet, there's something to be said about treating things differently, based on circumstances, one of which could be player-level.

1.1. Deviating from Recommended Penalties
The penalties for infractions are simply recommendations and may be increased or decreased in severity based on circumstances. As a general rule, judges should take an especially easy approach with the Junior age division. Younger players are often prone to mistakes due to lack of experience or the intimidation of playing in a competitive environmnt. POP recommends starting with a Caution for most penalties applied to players in the Junior age division. Younger or less-experienced players should always be given the benefit of the doubt, as they are often learning the game and most of the mistakes they make are accidental. These players may be given additional Caution penalties before a Warning is issued.

 

[calisupra2nr]

I do not disagree but the line of reasonable is often misinterpreted on both sides of the field.

 

[PokePop]

Younger or less-experienced players should always be given the benefit of the doubt, as they are often learning the game and most of the mistakes they make are accidental. These players may be given additional Caution penalties before a Warning is issued.

But note that it doesn't say "let them keep playing with their marked sleeves".
It just says not to hit them with a big penalty.
Changing the sleeves is not a penalty.
It is a correction of equipment that does not meet the tournament requirements.
The above quote only refers to what penalty might go along with that correction.

Along the lines of worn sleeves, I have had players present worn sleeves and allowed them with the warning that they would not be acceptible for the next event.
However, those sleeves were evenly worn and indistinguishable from one another.

I have also had players change out 10 or so sleeves from their deck.
As it happens, I carry around a bag of random PR sleeves, and can often help with the replacement of a few of those sleeves, but if I don't have the bag with me, or a matching sleeves, I don't say, "OK, you can play with those marked sleeves". Just don't look at the marks that I found on them".

 

[facism101]

Wasn't me who brought up the sport comparison, but the point still stands. Who provides the equipment doesn't matter. It has to be the correct equipment according to the rules. In Pokemon, it is up to the player to provide the right equipment and make sure it is all legal.

The whole point about the sleeve rules is NOT to have a grey area, isn't it? I thought the rule was pretty clear.



You only get confusion and grey areas when people move away from that.

who provides the equipment most certainly does matter hahahahaha. the people who provide the equipment in organized sports have already inspected and passed the equipment they are providing, where as in pokemon, the people providing and inspecting the equipment are two different people. which is why i believe for this ruling to not be arbitrary and contradictory, its needs to be black and white. either every player must provide brand new sleeves for each premier event, or players should be given sleeves by the tournament organizers. having this middle-ground rule that forces to judges to make their best decision is exactly what is causing all the confusion and controversy.